Mini 2133: XP Mafia II (Game Over)

[Raven Branwen]

So Raya wanting to be captured in NiA.

[Raven Branwen]

Spoiler:

1 xp, started with 0

how is a train cop useless?

It was stated by someone in the thread and I agreed with it. Don't remember now. Mostly got to do with there being many ways to render it useless or it being misleading or something

I want to upgrade tho : P

If things go as planned tonight and you're town, you can do so in the future. So, will you gift it to me?

ok

I want to upgrade tho : P

trained, didn't get xp

How do you know you got 1 XP from Flight of the Concords and not Training?

cos I cant see anything in my role pm that says I can only receive xp by training.

I think Knight probably made the FotC kill based on this.

If I’m right, it would confirm Hectic’s sabotage claim.

[Raven Branwen]

@Titus, you’ve played with scum!ABR before. In your estimation is this his town or scum game we’re seeing here?

[Raven Branwen]

Subject: Mini 2133 Night 1 Quest

A huge scum tell of mine actually and I can’t believe I’m fucking doing this.

I don’t talk to my partners. Ever. If I’m able to give a reason for a read, and keep giving opinions then perfect. However i seldom if ever talk or try to sort my teammates.

This is a personal tell i think i have and don’t know who else knows about it.

Basically if mastina and I were partners I wouldn’t talk if any to her. You can see games of it, the dialogue is atrocious.


Also it’s just a bit of player theory but i notice that usually in group activities scum are never bold enough to not partake in it. 100% the entire scum team is here for voting power. Leaving Lady Chloe as some random outcast sticking to the only wisdom they can trust, being their own. That’s town yo.

TSE is town from this.

[Raven Branwen]

Spoiler:

By the way, the Quest mech is visibly a parralel to the neighbors mech.

Why do you think Quest is not a pro-town mechanic?

Why IS a mechanic giving mafia
-access to an xp-eating roleblock
-potentially access to 1 free xp when they are chosen leader

pro town if all what happens is that someone gets an item of the leader`s choice?
It MIGHT be protown on Night 1 because theres only 1 xp that can be lost anyways, on second look.
It will be NOT protown later when everyone has potentially more xp, and it can really hurt the town if key roles (such as the NU role who prevents us from lynching) have no xp.

Was the scum kill a bonus action in the previous XP mafia, or just an action? Misreading what a bonus action is could explain the issue if it didn't exist in the past, but this is still a good point to make about mastina.

@Pine, i think you are the authority here when talking about mastina, is that AI for her?

It was usable with any action except train, but it was NOT called a bonus action. Again, it`s several years past. If it is a mistake, it is more likely - more, not very - to come from town. But there is still a chance that it was faked, so.... it averages that one to null for me

You know what, we should be trying to put all the mafia on the quest in that case. If we manage to, there'll be no kill unless mafia choose to kill and out themselves to one of the Train Cops. It's similar to the coalition victory condition from that setup.

We capture, and put the 6 scummiest people alongside the captured person on the quest.

It will give a false guilty on a town autofarmer, though... and Mafia can choose to risk outing someone even if they have people outside.

So I think I came up with a game-breaking Train Cop strategy.

No Capture Version
7 players go on the quest
We decided publically who will be the leader. The leader is free to use any action they choose.
The other 6 questers Train
Each of the 6 non-questers is assigned to Train cop one of the (non-leader) questers.

Capture Version
7 players go on the quest including the captured player.
The leader is decided publically and is free to use any action they choose.
The other 5 questers Train
Each of the 6 non-questers is assigned to Train cop the 6 non-captured questers including the leader. (Alternatively one of the questers remains unassigned)

In this way, mafia can't join the quest without being forced to Train! So at least one mafia will have to remain outside of the quest in order to do the kill. And the others inside the quest will not be able to use their abilities! So mafia has to decide to either A) be a part of the quest or B) use their abilities.

What if mafia is assigned to train cop the mafia inside the quest so they're free to do what they want

Indeed, but that's not the primary goal. The primary goal is forcing mafia to have to either use their ability/kill OR be inside the quest, not both.

Like even if they aren't assigned to their partner, they can still use their ability and simply say that the person they were assigned to trained.

Oh I see, we can't account for that, but it's less likely than is that they'll be assigned to their partner.

What I like about this is that if there is a kill, we know ~100% that it was one of the people outside of the quest that did it. (~accept for the potential of mafia being assigned to their partner)

It sounds nice, however there are several potential problems with it

1) If the 3 scum decide to join the quest, they will have lylo-equivalent voting power for the leader, making it more likely for the leader to be mafia, resulting in a catastrophical failure because they would get xp, gift, and free reins on the kill. The kill part is solved in the captured version, since the captured player cannot strongman (which i assume it would bypass the roleblock by capture?) today for a lack of xp. I also assume that mafia do not start with more than 1 xp. I'm not sure how much i would place my faith in

"Each player starts with 1 XP unless otherwise specified, and players can never have less than 0 XP. Players are always aware of how much XP they have.

"

but... probably they start with 1 xp, or at least most of them do.

2) Any mafia outside of the quest can kill freely and claim that the player assigned to them trained, even if town. There is no valid way to be sure all mafia are placed on the quest, so how do we know what happened? This is also not considering the possibility that mafia outside is assigned to check mafia inside, which would be a really bad result to trust later on.

I think the risk for disaster is too high compared to the benefit. Effort put into mechbreaking the setup is still town points to me though - i don't think scum would try that much to validate a train cop strategy

-Farkran

... and some players cannot afford to train cop because they have a role like pacifist... then we have town autofarmers... if they are suspected we have a false guilty...

The autogain 1XP but cannot train.

I don't think they would show up as "Training" for the Train Cop then.

and that means town autofarmers produce false guilties.

I was initially tr this slot and I think my read on him might have been influenced by him pushing that whole XP sr on my slot but I think he’s just wrong town.

I thought it really interesting that Pine, who’s been lurking allgame and done basically zilch, still managed to find the time to be on the quest.

My concern with Raya is that autofarmer seems like a townie role.

@mod, do scum get fakeclaims in this game?

[Raven Branwen]

Spoiler:

By the way, the Quest mech is visibly a parralel to the neighbors mech.

Why do you think Quest is not a pro-town mechanic?

Why IS a mechanic giving mafia
-access to an xp-eating roleblock
-potentially access to 1 free xp when they are chosen leader

pro town if all what happens is that someone gets an item of the leader`s choice?
It MIGHT be protown on Night 1 because theres only 1 xp that can be lost anyways, on second look.
It will be NOT protown later when everyone has potentially more xp, and it can really hurt the town if key roles (such as the NU role who prevents us from lynching) have no xp.

Was the scum kill a bonus action in the previous XP mafia, or just an action? Misreading what a bonus action is could explain the issue if it didn't exist in the past, but this is still a good point to make about mastina.

@Pine, i think you are the authority here when talking about mastina, is that AI for her?

It was usable with any action except train, but it was NOT called a bonus action. Again, it`s several years past. If it is a mistake, it is more likely - more, not very - to come from town. But there is still a chance that it was faked, so.... it averages that one to null for me

You know what, we should be trying to put all the mafia on the quest in that case. If we manage to, there'll be no kill unless mafia choose to kill and out themselves to one of the Train Cops. It's similar to the coalition victory condition from that setup.

We capture, and put the 6 scummiest people alongside the captured person on the quest.

It will give a false guilty on a town autofarmer, though... and Mafia can choose to risk outing someone even if they have people outside.

So I think I came up with a game-breaking Train Cop strategy.

No Capture Version
7 players go on the quest
We decided publically who will be the leader. The leader is free to use any action they choose.
The other 6 questers Train
Each of the 6 non-questers is assigned to Train cop one of the (non-leader) questers.

Capture Version
7 players go on the quest including the captured player.
The leader is decided publically and is free to use any action they choose.
The other 5 questers Train
Each of the 6 non-questers is assigned to Train cop the 6 non-captured questers including the leader. (Alternatively one of the questers remains unassigned)

In this way, mafia can't join the quest without being forced to Train! So at least one mafia will have to remain outside of the quest in order to do the kill. And the others inside the quest will not be able to use their abilities! So mafia has to decide to either A) be a part of the quest or B) use their abilities.

What if mafia is assigned to train cop the mafia inside the quest so they're free to do what they want

Indeed, but that's not the primary goal. The primary goal is forcing mafia to have to either use their ability/kill OR be inside the quest, not both.

Like even if they aren't assigned to their partner, they can still use their ability and simply say that the person they were assigned to trained.

Oh I see, we can't account for that, but it's less likely than is that they'll be assigned to their partner.

What I like about this is that if there is a kill, we know ~100% that it was one of the people outside of the quest that did it. (~accept for the potential of mafia being assigned to their partner)

It sounds nice, however there are several potential problems with it

1) If the 3 scum decide to join the quest, they will have lylo-equivalent voting power for the leader, making it more likely for the leader to be mafia, resulting in a catastrophical failure because they would get xp, gift, and free reins on the kill. The kill part is solved in the captured version, since the captured player cannot strongman (which i assume it would bypass the roleblock by capture?) today for a lack of xp. I also assume that mafia do not start with more than 1 xp. I'm not sure how much i would place my faith in

"Each player starts with 1 XP unless otherwise specified, and players can never have less than 0 XP. Players are always aware of how much XP they have.

"

but... probably they start with 1 xp, or at least most of them do.

2) Any mafia outside of the quest can kill freely and claim that the player assigned to them trained, even if town. There is no valid way to be sure all mafia are placed on the quest, so how do we know what happened? This is also not considering the possibility that mafia outside is assigned to check mafia inside, which would be a really bad result to trust later on.

I think the risk for disaster is too high compared to the benefit. Effort put into mechbreaking the setup is still town points to me though - i don't think scum would try that much to validate a train cop strategy

-Farkran

... and some players cannot afford to train cop because they have a role like pacifist... then we have town autofarmers... if they are suspected we have a false guilty...

The autogain 1XP but cannot train.

I don't think they would show up as "Training" for the Train Cop then.

and that means town autofarmers produce false guilties.

I was initially tr this slot and I think my read on him might have been influenced by him pushing that whole XP sr on my slot but I think he’s just wrong town.

I thought it really interesting that Pine, who’s been lurking allgame and done basically zilch, still managed to find the time to be on the quest.

My concern with Raya is that autofarmer seems like a townie role.

@mod, do scum get fakeclaims in this game?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Did the quest succeed or fail?

[Raven Branwen]

VOTE: Springlullaby
Time to get rid of the next scum. If correct, lynch the mastina - slot.

If you think Knight is scum, then I beg you go that direction instead. I've laid out why we don't lynch the capture today.

Maybe not. Pine still looks ubertownie, so maybe I shouldn’t be clearing NK15 yet.

What I can’t wrap my brain around is why both Farkset and Mastina push for Hectic to be leader, only to sabotage him. Does that make sense to anyone?

[Raven Branwen]

Did the quest succeed or fail?

I actually don’t know. I’m assuming fail, because Hectic claimed to be sabotaged.

[Raven Branwen]

The reason why I was probably sabotaged is that both scum had committed to strong townreads on me, so it'd be very awkward for them to pivot into scumreading/trying to get me lynched. Therefore, I was the safest person to sabotage since the person sabotaged naturally gets some "towncred", since they're only lying about it if scum no-sabotaged and are gambiting. So, scum sabotaging someone they're not going to try and mislynch anyway, but probably nightkill later is ideal for them, since the "towncred" won't matter.

I could see scum!Mastina trying to frame Hectic. She’s done that before - hard buddies a slot in order to frame them.

[Raven Branwen]

Spoiler:

By the way, the Quest mech is visibly a parralel to the neighbors mech.

Why do you think Quest is not a pro-town mechanic?

Why IS a mechanic giving mafia
-access to an xp-eating roleblock
-potentially access to 1 free xp when they are chosen leader

pro town if all what happens is that someone gets an item of the leader`s choice?
It MIGHT be protown on Night 1 because theres only 1 xp that can be lost anyways, on second look.
It will be NOT protown later when everyone has potentially more xp, and it can really hurt the town if key roles (such as the NU role who prevents us from lynching) have no xp.

Was the scum kill a bonus action in the previous XP mafia, or just an action? Misreading what a bonus action is could explain the issue if it didn't exist in the past, but this is still a good point to make about mastina.

@Pine, i think you are the authority here when talking about mastina, is that AI for her?

It was usable with any action except train, but it was NOT called a bonus action. Again, it`s several years past. If it is a mistake, it is more likely - more, not very - to come from town. But there is still a chance that it was faked, so.... it averages that one to null for me

You know what, we should be trying to put all the mafia on the quest in that case. If we manage to, there'll be no kill unless mafia choose to kill and out themselves to one of the Train Cops. It's similar to the coalition victory condition from that setup.

We capture, and put the 6 scummiest people alongside the captured person on the quest.

It will give a false guilty on a town autofarmer, though... and Mafia can choose to risk outing someone even if they have people outside.

So I think I came up with a game-breaking Train Cop strategy.

No Capture Version
7 players go on the quest
We decided publically who will be the leader. The leader is free to use any action they choose.
The other 6 questers Train
Each of the 6 non-questers is assigned to Train cop one of the (non-leader) questers.

Capture Version
7 players go on the quest including the captured player.
The leader is decided publically and is free to use any action they choose.
The other 5 questers Train
Each of the 6 non-questers is assigned to Train cop the 6 non-captured questers including the leader. (Alternatively one of the questers remains unassigned)

In this way, mafia can't join the quest without being forced to Train! So at least one mafia will have to remain outside of the quest in order to do the kill. And the others inside the quest will not be able to use their abilities! So mafia has to decide to either A) be a part of the quest or B) use their abilities.

What if mafia is assigned to train cop the mafia inside the quest so they're free to do what they want

Indeed, but that's not the primary goal. The primary goal is forcing mafia to have to either use their ability/kill OR be inside the quest, not both.

Like even if they aren't assigned to their partner, they can still use their ability and simply say that the person they were assigned to trained.

Oh I see, we can't account for that, but it's less likely than is that they'll be assigned to their partner.

What I like about this is that if there is a kill, we know ~100% that it was one of the people outside of the quest that did it. (~accept for the potential of mafia being assigned to their partner)

It sounds nice, however there are several potential problems with it

1) If the 3 scum decide to join the quest, they will have lylo-equivalent voting power for the leader, making it more likely for the leader to be mafia, resulting in a catastrophical failure because they would get xp, gift, and free reins on the kill. The kill part is solved in the captured version, since the captured player cannot strongman (which i assume it would bypass the roleblock by capture?) today for a lack of xp. I also assume that mafia do not start with more than 1 xp. I'm not sure how much i would place my faith in

"Each player starts with 1 XP unless otherwise specified, and players can never have less than 0 XP. Players are always aware of how much XP they have.

"

but... probably they start with 1 xp, or at least most of them do.

2) Any mafia outside of the quest can kill freely and claim that the player assigned to them trained, even if town. There is no valid way to be sure all mafia are placed on the quest, so how do we know what happened? This is also not considering the possibility that mafia outside is assigned to check mafia inside, which would be a really bad result to trust later on.

I think the risk for disaster is too high compared to the benefit. Effort put into mechbreaking the setup is still town points to me though - i don't think scum would try that much to validate a train cop strategy

-Farkran

... and some players cannot afford to train cop because they have a role like pacifist... then we have town autofarmers... if they are suspected we have a false guilty...

The autogain 1XP but cannot train.

I don't think they would show up as "Training" for the Train Cop then.

and that means town autofarmers produce false guilties.

I was initially tr this slot and I think my read on him might have been influenced by him pushing that whole XP sr on my slot but I think he’s just wrong town.

I thought it really interesting that Pine, who’s been lurking allgame and done basically zilch, still managed to find the time to be on the quest.

My concern with Raya is that autofarmer seems like a townie role.

@mod, do scum get fakeclaims in this game?

We absolutely shouldn’t hammer before this question gets answered. If scum doesn’t get fake claims, I find it difficult to believe that Raya is lying about her role.

[Raven Branwen]

We need more dialogue on NK15 being town, not just declarative statements.

Be careful, FOC will scumread you soon for that. He is already furious that we discuss capture target instead of instavoting {neighborizer + no capture}.
~ker

Gun to head, I think it probably is NK15 and Ame is ignoring the obvious.

VOTE: NK15

Only way I’m voting Raya is if mod says scum has fake claims. I don’t think Hectic is lying about being sabotaged.

[Raven Branwen]

Did the quest succeed or fail?

townslip

[Raya36]

Which points do you think makes Hectic look worse?

2444 - your second point
2462
2463
2464
2470
2484
2486 - Even if it's not a TMI read (I don't think it is, it looks too intentional), it kinda looks like scum buddies joking a bit in main

[Raya36]

UNVOTE: Titus

I'll go back to NK then. No sense in lynching a replacement

VOTE: NK

[Ame]

If you think he's scum, there is sense in lynching it.

[Raya36]

Yes but I want to here from the replacement first

[Titus]

lets hammer titus so she doesn't have to play with ABR because she does not like playing with ABR

ABR challenged me. I don't turn down a challenge from a player who thinks they can get better. Plus, I didn't want him accusing any of you of being me.

isn't it better to start a game from D1 and not a game thats 2 scum 1 town down

I sub into games where I can do my VCA or at least out of RVS usually. I feel that D1 there's zero to go off of.

@Titus, you’ve played with scum!ABR before. In your estimation is this his town or scum game we’re seeing here?

I can't answer this yet. Aside from detesting meta, I don't read on subbing in. I need to do my initial VCA to determine my initial impressions.

[Titus]

Which points do you think makes Hectic look worse?

2444 - your second point
2462
2463
2464
2470
2484
2486 - Even if it's not a TMI read (I don't think it is, it looks too intentional), it kinda looks like scum buddies joking a bit in main

UNVOTE: Titus

I'll go back to NK then. No sense in lynching a replacement

VOTE: NK

How can these posts be made back to back? Was your NK read as strong as your read on Hectic?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Welcome Titus

[Titus]

VC 1.6

[Capture] springlullaby (4)- momo, Pine, Not Known 15, Farkset
[Capture] Farkset (3)- springlullaby, Ame, Flight of the Conchords
[Capture] Lady Chloe (1)- mastina
[Capture] Pine (1)- Pink Ball
[Capture] momo (1)- Hectic

End Day (1)- Lady Chloe

Not voting (2)- Ginngie, Raya36

With 13 alive it takes 7 to reach a majority.

Deadline is in (expired on 2020-04-20 13:00:00)

Mod notes:

Please keep it civil. We don't need personal attacks or insults.

Public Mechanic Vote

Disable Strongman (10)- Farkset, Lady Chloe, springlullaby, Raya36, Pine, Not Known 15, mastina, Ginngie, Ame, Pink Ball
Neighborizer (3)- momo, Flight of the Conchords, Hectic

Not voting (0)- Nobody

Ame and springlullaby town most likely.

VC 1.FINAL

[Capture] springlullaby (7)- momo, Pine, Ame, Hectic, Farkset, Pink Ball, Not Known 15 (CAPTURE)
[Capture] Farkset (1)- springlullaby
[Capture] Lady Chloe (1)- mastina
[Capture] Raya36 (1)- Flight of the Conchords

End Day (1)- Lady Chloe

Not voting (2)- Ginngie, Raya36

With 13 alive it takes 7 to reach a majority.

Deadline is in (expired on 2020-04-20 13:00:00)

Mod notes: Hammer! (sorta)

Public Mechanic Vote

Disable Strongman (10)- Farkset, Lady Chloe, springlullaby, Raya36, Pine, Not Known 15, mastina, Ginngie, Ame, Pink Ball
Neighborizer (3)- momo, Flight of the Conchords, Hectic

Not voting (0)- Nobody

Sorry for the long twilight! I had a lot of homework yesterday, and ducky... well, I don't know. He was probably off looking for bread or something.

springlullaby has been Captured!

The following Public Mechanic has been put into play:

[Disable Strongman]
The Mafia no longer have access to their 2 XP strongman ability.

Night 1 begins and will end in (expired on 2020-04-23 14:00:00).

Correction: Night deadline is frozen while we wait for a mastina replacement.

Based on this, I'd look at Not Known 15 or Pine.

Flight of the Conchords has died. They were...

Spoiler:

Town Lord

Welcome, Flight of the Conchords, to Mini 2133: XP Mafia II. Your role is

Town Lord.

Your role costs

4 XP

to upgrade.

You have the following abilities:

• You start with 2 XP, instead of the default 1.
  
• Whenever a Public Mechanic is put into play that costs XP to use, you will gain 1 XP.
  
• When you die, each living player will gain 1 XP.

You win when all mafia members are dead and at least one town member remains alive.

Farkset has been treestumped. They are dead, but may continue to post in the thread and in any alignment-confirmed PT's. They were...

Spoiler:

Mafia Watcher

Welcome, Farkset, to Mini 2133: XP Mafia II. Your role is

Mafia Watcher.

Your role costs

4 XP

to upgrade.

[REDACTED]

Each night, you may target another player. You will learn the names of all other players who targeted your target with an action that night. For each player that you see visiting your target, you will gain 1 XP.

You win when the mafia control 50% of all living players or nothing can prevent this from occurring.

In addition, the following Public Mechanics have been put into play:

[Gift]
During the night, any player may choose to give any amount of XP to another player. The person using this action loses that much XP, and the target gains that much. If the target dies that night, the action fails, but if the user dies, it succeeds.

[Lynch]
All players may vote to lynch another player using VOTE: Player or

Vote: Player

. Once a majority is reached, the day ends and that player dies.

FoTC dying suggests to look at Raya barring something happening on the quest.

[Raya36]

Which points do you think makes Hectic look worse?

2444 - your second point
2462
2463
2464
2470
2484
2486 - Even if it's not a TMI read (I don't think it is, it looks too intentional), it kinda looks like scum buddies joking a bit in main

UNVOTE: Titus

I'll go back to NK then. No sense in lynching a replacement

VOTE: NK

How can these posts be made back to back? Was your NK read as strong as your read on Hectic?

More or less yeah. I'm working on sorting everyone right now to help clear this up

[Titus]

Spoiler: VCs

VC 2.1

Raya36 (3)- Ame, Alisae, Hectic
Raven Branwen (2)- Pine, Not Known 15
Alisae (1)- Raya36

Not voting (5)- Knightmare491, Pink Ball, Ginngie, Creature, Raven Branwen

With 11 alive it takes 6 to reach a majority.

Deadline is in (expired on 2020-05-04 23:00:00)

Mod notes: Prodding Pine. Sorry for the infrequency of votecounts.

Picking up where we left off, this wagon composition doesn't look good for Raya. One conftown (me) and one probtown (Ame) against two suspect slots on a probtown (Raven aka Spring).

VC 2.2

Raya36 (3)- Alisae, Hectic, Not Known 15
Knightmare491 (3)- Creature, Ame, Raven Branwen
Raven Branwen (1)- Pine
Alisae (1)- Raya36

Not voting (3)- Knightmare491, Pink Ball, Ginngie

With 11 alive it takes 6 to reach a majority.

Deadline is in (expired on 2020-05-04 23:00:00)

Mod notes: none.

Interesting how Knightmare is the counter and not Raven. If Raya is town, Negative points for Not Known 15. He could be a townbeard though...

VC 2.3

Knightmare491 (5)- Raven Branwen, Not Known 15, Creature, Ame, Alisae
Alisae (3)- Raya36, Hectic, Knightmare491
Raven Branwen (1)- Pine

Not voting (2)- Pink Ball, Ginngie

With 11 alive it takes 6 to reach a majority.

Deadline is in (expired on 2020-05-04 23:00:00)

Mod notes: none.

Liking Raya as more town based off this VC. Liking Alisae a bit less.

VC 2.FINAL

Knightmare491 (6)- Raven Branwen, Not Known 15, Creature, Ame, Alisae, Ginngie (LYNCH)
Alisae (3)- Raya36, Hectic, Knightmare491
Raven Branwen (1)- Pine

Not voting (1)- Pink Ball

With 11 alive it takes 6 to reach a majority.

Deadline is in (expired on 2020-05-04 23:00:00)

Mod notes: none.

Knightmare491 was lynched.

[Role redacted for spoiler code]

Night 2 begins now and ends in (expired on 2020-05-06 21:00:00).

To recap this day, Creature, Ame, Raven, and Raya likely town.

Not Known 15 needs scrutiny.
Alisae and Pine also scum contenders.

[Titus]

VOTE: NK15

[Titus]

I'd say Alisae is the least likely of the three. I can create a town Ali argument easy too.

Raya would be the most helpful flip for VCA but I think she's town.