Newbie 2005 [Game Over!]

[Aloratom]

In fact

VOTE: Beansi

Has your read changed here?

Not really. Italiano did redeem it a bit, but not enough. I would like to hear votato's response to your and my question re the scumminess he saw between egix and Italiano, but I can't see changing my vote at this stage.

[Aloratom]

I was going to say that if Italiano was switching to NK just for self preservation, I don't really have a problem with that. Now in 398 he's come up with several more reasons that I don't think he mentioned before. An ex post facto justification in this context seems scummy to me.

[piisirrational]

I was going to say that if Italiano was switching to NK just for self preservation, I don't really have a problem with that. Now in 398 he's come up with several more reasons that I don't think he mentioned before. An ex post facto justification in this context seems scummy to me.

Was there anything in that post in particular that made you think this was a scummy response?

I feel like he was just defending their switchup of voting me to NK15 by explaining the switch in more detail. I don’t find that scummy. Though I will say I don’t think he needed to re-explain most of the other things. The last bit though was informative information we could use later I guess.

Also, I’ll take IVD at his word when he says that they switched their vote as self-survival. It just doesn’t make sense to me to take it any further than that. Since anyone would do this in this position this read as NAI to me.

But I still find him scummy because of his posts before he switched to NK15 as previously explained.

[Midari Ikishima]

Why would self preservation be a good thing though?
It almost reads as if someone was scummy all along and trying to get town points along the way. They were in no particular way the lynch today as even heading into later into the day there didn't seem intentions of them getting the noose.

[piisirrational]

Why would self preservation be a good thing though?
It almost reads as if someone was scummy all along and trying to get town points along the way. They were in no particular way the lynch today as even heading into later into the day there didn't seem intentions of them getting the noose.

This is my POV on the matter:

Self preservation

alone

doesn't tell us anything. Because anyone, town or scum, would want to stay alive, so I'm confused as to why people are scumreading IVD on the basis of that alone. That's NAI to me.

When/how/why they're doing it, on the other hand, can help us understand their intent and guess their alignment. You make a good point that there wasn't even a threat for them to get lynched at the time though, which helps explains your suspicion of their "self preservation" vote.

Their self preservation vote wasn't what I'd call "good," but it didn't help me with determining their alignment since anyone would do it.

Hopefully this makes more sense.

[Midari Ikishima]

Their self preservation vote wasn't what I'd call "good," but it didn't help me with determining their alignment since anyone would do it.

I disagree I sometimes can see someone being content with their lynch as knowing their hanging can prove a hypothesis and use a confirmation depending on other factors. There's an issue with this and I'm sure you can figure it out but I'll have more about this tomorrow depending on how tomorrow goes.

[Midari Ikishima]

Also I'd like to thank you for the opportunity to catch up but, I'm finding it a bit of a slog. Page 8 took me a while to read and has me wishing I could hide quotes as I read.

[Snowblaze]

Well, given the lack of remaining time and someone I scum read being on L-1:

Intent to hammer

.

Did you ever let me know why you scumread me? I think I may have missed it. Am curious what your read on me is/was.

I don’t think I went into detail: I explained my reasoning for suspecting your predecessor, but I can explain the rest now.

1. You’ve been over-explaining your votes in a way that feels like you’re trying too hard to justify them.

2. I really don’t like your reasoning for voting NK15 at the time you did it: “I know this is going to make me look bad but I’m doing it anyway”.

3. Your explanation after for why NK15 is suspicious included switching from their top scum read to someone they find less suspicious... exactly what you did, with the addition that an NK/pi scum team is extremely unlikely given early day one.

Also, you might want to claim your role so we don’t end up lynching a PR.

[Egix96]

Why would self preservation be a good thing though?
It almost reads as if someone was scummy all along and trying to get town points along the way. They were in no particular way the lynch today as even heading into later into the day there didn't seem intentions of them getting the noose.

This is my POV on the matter:

Self preservation

alone

doesn't tell us anything.

Because anyone, town or scum, would want to stay alive

, so I'm confused as to why people are scumreading IVD on the basis of that alone. That's NAI to me.

When/how/why they're doing it, on the other hand, can help us understand their intent and guess their alignment. You make a good point that there wasn't even a threat for them to get lynched at the time though, which helps explains your suspicion of their "self preservation" vote.

Their self preservation vote wasn't what I'd call "good," but it didn't help me with determining their alignment since anyone would do it.

Hopefully this makes more sense.

If anything though, scum would have more reason to be survivalist, because a scum lynch is more destructive to scum wincon than a town lynch is to town's, due to sheer difference in numbers. Especially in this setup where there are only two maf.

[ItalianoVD]

1. You’ve been over-explaining your votes in a way that feels like you’re trying too hard to justify them.

Yeah, this is how I'm used to playing, you'll see as I play more games. It's what I do. I consider votes to be extremely valuable and for town, it's the greatest tool/weapon. I don't want to just throw it around without explaining why even if I have to do it multiple times.

2. I really don’t like your reasoning for voting NK15 at the time you did it: “I know this is going to make me look bad but I’m doing it anyway”.

Fair enough. No use trying to change your mind then eh?

3. Your explanation after for why NK15 is suspicious included switching from their top scum read to someone they find less suspicious... exactly what you did, with the addition that an NK/pi scum team is extremely unlikely given early day one.

Ehhh, sure you can frame it that way if you want, but I think the subtle difference is: when NK15 changed to Aloratom, he still thought pii was scummier. I don't think pii is scummier than NK15 at this point, otherwise I would have never changed my vote.

But I did try to get traction on that wagon though. That's why I asked pii if he'd vote for NK if the traction was there. I put NK at 3, tied with me. I figured if NK was scum, it'd put pressure on his teammate to protect him and vote for me. But he voted for me instead, which is not all that bad because if some of the other people who still feel NK is scum vote for him and tie it back up, then we can see who chooses to hammer me and not vote for him and look at that person or persons as his potential partner. This is with the idea that he is scum though. Now if he is just vanilla townie and he agrees we can still tie up the votes at 4 and then whoever hammers either of us would jump to the forefront of mafiascum and should be lynched Day 2. I'm not sure how it would work if he has a town power role though, so someone would have to explain that to me. Either way a tied score I think is in the best interest of the town. I don't mind dying if it's gonna help uncover some clue to who's who. I mean it's only a theory, but I don't know, what do you guys think? I'm pretty much dead anyway so you might as well indulge me.

Also, you might want to claim your role so we don’t end up lynching a PR.

Yeah, I'm at L-1. So how exactly do I do it? Just say it? I'm town?

I'm town.

[Snowblaze]

Vanilla townie as opposed to power role?

I'll reply to the other stuff in a little bit.

[Aloratom]

If you're Town, a self-preservation vote is okay because you know you're Town and that you getting the noose means Town is getting lynched which is bad for Town. As pi said, scum also self-preserve so it's in essence NAI. In this case, though, the vote switch is scummy for other reasons pointed out by me and others.

[Snowblaze]

1. You’ve been over-explaining your votes in a way that feels like you’re trying too hard to justify them.

Yeah, this is how I'm used to playing, you'll see as I play more games. It's what I do. I consider votes to be extremely valuable and for town, it's the greatest tool/weapon. I don't want to just throw it around without explaining why even if I have to do it multiple times.

2. I really don’t like your reasoning for voting NK15 at the time you did it: “I know this is going to make me look bad but I’m doing it anyway”.

Fair enough. No use trying to change your mind then eh?

3. Your explanation after for why NK15 is suspicious included switching from their top scum read to someone they find less suspicious... exactly what you did, with the addition that an NK/pi scum team is extremely unlikely given early day one.

Ehhh, sure you can frame it that way if you want, but I think the subtle difference is: when NK15 changed to Aloratom, he still thought pii was scummier. I don't think pii is scummier than NK15 at this point, otherwise I would have never changed my vote.

But I did try to get traction on that wagon though. That's why I asked pii if he'd vote for NK if the traction was there. I put NK at 3, tied with me. I figured if NK was scum, it'd put pressure on his teammate to protect him and vote for me. But he voted for me instead, which is not all that bad because if some of the other people who still feel NK is scum vote for him and tie it back up, then we can see who chooses to hammer me and not vote for him and look at that person or persons as his potential partner. This is with the idea that he is scum though. Now if he is just vanilla townie and he agrees we can still tie up the votes at 4 and then whoever hammers either of us would jump to the forefront of mafiascum and should be lynched Day 2. I'm not sure how it would work if he has a town power role though, so someone would have to explain that to me. Either way a tied score I think is in the best interest of the town. I don't mind dying if it's gonna help uncover some clue to who's who. I mean it's only a theory, but I don't know, what do you guys think? I'm pretty much dead anyway so you might as well indulge me.

Also, you might want to claim your role so we don’t end up lynching a PR.

Yeah, I'm at L-1. So how exactly do I do it? Just say it? I'm town?

I'm town.

So you suddenly decided that the main counter wagon to you was also the most suspicious person. That is... very coincidental if true.

And as for that plan regarding NK15, it seems like you're fishing for PRs right now. And... I'm not sure that hammering a townie automatically makes you suspicious on its own. It could come from scum trying to save their partner, but equally from town making the wrong decision.

Plus I'm not sure there's enough time left on the clock to set up the tie. So it seems an unnecessary risk right now: potentially outing a PR and risking a no lynch. There's a majority in favour of your lynch, so we lynch you and then look at NK15 and others if you flip town.

[Snowblaze]

Sixteen and a half hours left. Shall I just hammer now?

[ItalianoVD]

Sure. You were gonna do it anyway. See you on the flipside.

[Snowblaze]

VOTE: ItalianoVD.

[AaronFrost]

Just woke up. Flip coming soon.

[AaronFrost]

Vote Count 1.13

Vote Count

ItalianoVD [5]:

Aloratom, votato, piisirrational, Not Known 15, Snowblaze

<----- Lynch!

Not Known 15 [3]:

Egix96, Midari Ikishima, ItalianoVD

Aloratom [1]:

Homura

piisirrational [0]:

Homura [0]:

Midari Ikishima [0]:

Egix96 [0]:

votato [0]:

Snowblaze [0]:

Not Voting [0]:

With 9 in play, it takes 5 votes to lynch

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2020-05-25 21:00:00)

Notes

-

[AaronFrost]

ItalianoVD,

Vanilla Townie

, lynched Day 1!

Night 1 begins! Both votato and Homura haven't posted in the last 36 hours, so they have (expired on 2020-05-26 10:35:00) to let me know they're still playing or else I'll find replacements during the night.

Edit: I forgot to mention that the night deadline is paused until I confirm all slots are still playing

[AaronFrost]

Both Homura and votato have confirmed that they are still playing. Night ends in (expired on 2020-05-27 13:45:00).

[AaronFrost]

Homura,

Town Doctor

, killed Night 1!

[AaronFrost]

Day 2 Begins!

Vote Count 2.00

Vote Count

Aloratom [0]:

votato [0]:

Snowblaze [0]:

piisirrational [0]:

Not Known 15 [0]:

Midari Ikishima [0]:

Egix96 [0]:

Not Voting [7]:

Aloratom, votato, Snowblaze, piisirrational, Not Known 15, Midari Ikishima, Egix96

With 7 in play, it takes 4 votes to lynch.

Day 2 ends in (expired on 2020-06-03 14:05:00)

Notes

-

[votato]

after re-reading homura's ISO, i dont really see any doctor tells. This kill probably means that homura's reads were good, because it seems strange otherwise to off a low-activity player. that suggests that we should be taking a close look at aloratom, pi, and NK15. as it happens, all three of them were also on the italiano wagon.

[Egix96]

after re-reading homura's ISO, i dont really see any doctor tells. This kill probably means that homura's reads were good, because it seems strange otherwise to off a low-activity player. that suggests that we should be taking a close look at aloratom, pi, and NK15. as it happens, all three of them were also on the italiano wagon.

Tbf I'm not really surprised that Homura was town so I wouldn't base it on reads, necessarily.

[piisirrational]

after re-reading homura's ISO, i dont really see any doctor tells. This kill probably means that homura's reads were good, because it seems strange otherwise to off a low-activity player. that suggests that we should be taking a close look at aloratom, pi, and NK15. as it happens, all three of them were also on the italiano wagon.

Why would that be the case? I think that killing someone who had low activity is actually good for scum regardless of the accuracy of their reads:

1) Homura’s reads were mainly at the beginning of the game. For all the scum know, Homura could have shifted her reads and had the actual scumteam as the biggest scumreads. Not saying that’s the case here, but you know.
2) Replacements are always bad for scum because replacements pick up on scummy things earlier in the game town may have missed/overlooked. Someone with low activity is more likely to be replaced.
3) The kill can be tracked to less/incorrect people.

Also, Homura was widely townread across people here. That would give another potential reason to why she was the NK.

Not saying that looking at the people she suspected isn't a start but the point is that we need to be taking a close look at everybody today, not just those people.