Mini 2136 | City That Never Sleeps [Game over!]

[Auro]

Meanwhile, can you tell me why that is a wtf vote, why's my paranoia unjustified?

Atari, looking forward to your reads list.

[Auro]

What's the Eve case?
Acryon's posting over the last few pages has been pretty bad.

[Auro]

My big problem with Eve is I just can't make a case based on her play. D1 and today as well has been uninspiring from her, but it's just a lot harder to move on because there's so little there. I frankly have very little reason to believe Eve is town based on her posts, but I just don't know where to start on a case against her.

So I was hiding behind the Copbloc gimmick and otherwise nothing.
Eve's play is uninspiring (I note that you're using this a second time)

Can you explain once more some of your *townreads* so I get a feel for what you look for in town?

[Auro]

Subject: Mini 1998: Super Smash Mafia for Nintendo Switch! [GAME OVER

-snip-
Well my two biggest scumreads from yesterday are dead. Kokichi is my number one now because his early play yesterday pinged, the quickhammer was bad, and his play today has been

uninspiring

to say the least. I could see scum!Gamma, because there just doesn't seem to be a lot of content in his play, but that's a very slight read. Dunnstral has essentially said nothing; could easily see scum in that spot.

The other ol' game in a search where Acryon used the word "uninspiring"... and as scum
(This is a joke)

Acryon, a skim of your recent ISO at least shows no townreads. It's surprising that you attack me over "not being clear" while you don't seem to have any solid direction to go in yourself, whereas I have been pretty perfectly clear... no?

[Auro]

It's interesting that you have BBMolla as a top townread and Eve as a top scumread, when I parse their gameplay as pretty similar.

Do you think BBMolla is working towards progressing reads or the gamestate for town?
Do you think BBMolla is scumhunting?

What is Eve's scum agenda?
When you think of an answer, also explain to me why the same agenda does not fit to BBMolla.

[Auro]

1682: Justifies Karnage!town via similar behavior to a recently ended game, notes that Skitter's thoughts feel off
1690: Attempts to justify her feelings there, reaches the conclusion that since it was parallel to her own thoughts, it's not a strong reason
1715: Makes the case that Nom's accusation of Skitter is legitimate if Skitter is familiar with Nom's meta.
1847: Makes the case that locktowning Skitter from D1 VCA is bad.
1956: Notices an inconsistency in my Titus progression and asks me, also says she thinks I'm town.

Why do these feel surfacey?

All of these posts

feel valid and legitimate.

[Auro]

Answers to questions which were a cause of her stating a stance or voting somewhere. They absolutely count. Dismissing 1956 as valid thought is if your reasoning is that you think we are scumbuddies...

You recognize that one inconsistency doesn't mean they're auto scum, yes? It's possible to find a top townread of yours say something that felt off, and ask them to make sure?

@Smart: While such reads are definitely a thing, I feel like the conclusions of these reads with their confidences feels pretty off from Crayon. He's pushing people for things like "they questioned X slot but also said X is town", or "they pushed Y slot, but didn't have a vote on them", this is ick.

[Auro]

Titus, please think deeper about Skitter and Acryon.

[Auro]

Controversial opinion, I actually think skitter looks way worse on a Titus townflip than on a Titus scumflip. If she's scum with Titus she's basically betting the game on being able to deflect the vote away from Titus, but her reasoning is vague and she isn't pushing a counterwagon. That is much more of a whiteknighting archetype than a partner defending one.

Actually the more I think about the more I feel like skitter/Titus isn't a viable team. I'll have to talk to lilith about this because I think that's her solve atm.

Smart, please evaluate the rest of Skitter's play (and from late D1) as well, if you can.
And especially Acryon's play so far, as well.

If Titus is scum, yes, Skitter isn't pushing a strong counterwagon... but who is? This leaves Titus with no partner equity at all if you go down that line: so if she's scum her buddy is doing exactly what Skitter would be doing as a buddy, no? Of course, you could say that

Skitter

would push a strong counterwagon but other partners would just leave it be, but I doubt that is the case.

Also note how, when I made a u-turn on Titus, suddenly Eve was being propped up as a lynch. Thoughts on that?

[Auro]

i know, i think that eve's more likely scum here than auro, which is why i'm voting there

also idk why that team would be super threatened by acryon either

Umm, look at the VC - all Eve votes were directly after the Acryon wagon.

Acryon isn't the counterwagon to Eve, Eve is the counterwagon to Acryon.

VOTE: Skitter

[Auro]

Vote motion doesn't make sense for an eve/auro scumteam unless they felt super threatened by acryon or deliberately vote fucking.

...
Vote motion doesn't make sense at all, Auro+Eve could easily just lynch you.

My Acryon vote also meant moving off your wagon, and the Eve votes all came after that.

I'm actually surprised none of you noticed this, even when I explicitly stated this, instead framing Acryon as the counterwagon we proposed and then wondering why we did that.

[Auro]

i know, i think that eve's more likely scum here than auro, which is why i'm voting there

also idk why that team would be super threatened by acryon either

This line of thinking.

Yes, Acryon was a "counterwagon" to Titus, but the contexts are widely different. I was the person largely responsible for both Titus and Acryon wagons, which is not the case here.

[Auro]

I would rather lynch Titus than Eve, if I'm unable to get a Skitter lynch.

[Auro]

Huh? He was a universal tr until I replaced in and started the wagon and it's literally all I've been pushing. How are you the one responsible for the wagon?

My scumreading him wasn't related to your push, sorry and my push also got a sheep vote to bring him to L-2, so.
Titus was at L-2 or whatever and Crayon had 1 vote, then I unvoted Titus and voted Crayon.
Anyway, that doesn't matter.

VOTE: Titus

meh then

[Auro]

also idk why that team would be super threatened by acryon either

This was a response to Titus' post implying it was a CW; I think that "Auro+Eve" were super threatened by Acryon isn't a thought that leads from knowing that the Eve votes came after Acryon.
No?

[Auro]

Titus didn't imply it was a counterwagon. I thought she was saying that since you both jumped on acryon within a few pages of each other, then by VCA you probably weren't teamed... unless you felt super threatened by acryon and really needed him dead.

Ah, okay, that was a contradiction, not a proposition. Okay.

[Auro]

@auro, why are you scumreading acryon

I've described it a few pages earlier, I think his reads and progressions don't look legitimate?

[Auro]

Eh, Smart, are you confident on Titus? You did think Skitter was suspect if Titus was town. Where did you arrive at if Titus is scum?

[Auro]

Titus, it's a mix of my not scumreading Eve (I found all her posts today legitimate) and the wagon composition on Eve. I'm also saying Eve is the generated counterwagon to Acryon. I don't think the lack of defense is scummy.
Skitter+Acryon looks like a decent solve to me.

If it was Eve+Auro I'd not hesitate to just lynch you, no?

[Auro]

I was typing my post out Titus I never ignore questions, if I do it would be because I forgot to respond.

[Auro]

Have you played against scum!Skitter before?
She's the kind of player whose posting always looks towny af as scum. She easily takes initiative as scum. You don't judge her by normal scumreading parameters.

1) It's based on his posting today. I've described this in detail, no? And I said I was reversing my stance on you... does it really seem out of left field as a progression?
2) I disagree! Her votes today have all made sense as legitimate logic to me. The question about VCA has more context to it. I don't see it as "kissing your ass".
3) I need two more people willing to lynch Acryon, then, no? I'm

much

stronger on Skitter, fwiw. If I just have to choose between you and Eve, I'd lynch you.

actually
UNVOTE:

[Auro]

I thought the deadline was soon, not 17 hours lol

On a side-note, I think people always deserve to be engaged with even if I scumread them unless I feel they're playing in bad faith / there's no progress being made from the engagement.

[Auro]

The vote is a result of your recent posting, my stance on Titus shifting, and my beginning to doubt my earlier evaluation of you.

This and read further posts in my ISO to see other problems I've had with his slot

He doesn't have any solid reads, but his posting before that seemed to indicate confidence in certain reasoning. I disagree with his evaluations on various slots including myself, Eve, Molla (I townread Molla for other reasons, but I have a problem with his evaluation of things). The whole "Auro/GL isn't TvT, I don't know where, I guess Auro" seems fake. I've had MUCH more to my play yesterday than the copbloc thing: that play doesn't purely revolve around mechanics, it means I actually have to identify town and scum candidates before I dictate it, which I was actively doing - so dismissing all of that play because the cop's dead feels disingenuous. When I made a U-Turn on Titus, suddenly Eve got voted by both Skitter and Acryon, and their reasoning for Eve!scum would apply earlier too: where was that when Titus was being pushed? I feel like Titus is town, and Skitter/Crayon were both just lulling around thinking that lynch would go through; when I disbanded that, suddenly both of them think I'm second likeliest scum, and both Eve. A little fishy, no?

[Auro]

Skitter, as an exercise, I'd like you to pull up one of Crayon's scum games and do an ISO skim - tell me if you think there's an obvious difference in perceived sincerity.

[Auro]

so then why vote titus ...

I was unable to get Acryon votes, and unable to get Skitter votes, under the impression that it was either Titus or Eve, Titus does have some points against her, and I thought the deadline was closer than it is

[Auro]

The slip

[Auro]

I'm not sure that will help you sort anything. I do try pretty hard to play the same style as either alignment. You might just see differences based on my IRL availability and the game comp. Although if you find some key differences between a scum game and how I'm playing here, I'm happy to be proven wrong

From my cursory skim, I expected that it should cause the reasons you're generally townread to turn largely NAI at best

[Auro]

Titus also helped convince me skitter was likely town. I think 1833 was/is pretty compelling.

Time to pull out GuiltyLion's favorite Obama GIF

[Auro]

Yes, I believe I pulled up some posts of hers today and said they appeared like legitimate solving thought and not "surfacey", no?

[Auro]

His question was: Can you pick examples of some early game questions of yours, and show us how the responses to those helped progress your reads?

[Auro]

How is Skitter prob town again, please summarize reasons
Sorry I'm asking too many times, but easier to disband them this way

[Auro]

why is acryon probably town on a Titus scum flip?

Crayon was on the Titus wagon, and acted to vote Eve after I unvoted Titus and voted him.

[Auro]

we are the team we engaged in the most labored, obnoxious, thread spammy theater for hundreds of posts on D1 which I simply basically never do as scum

Well to be fair I'm always up for some spicy SvS theater as scum

[Auro]

Smart, you should really check out an Acryon scum game.
I would say he was sorta under the radar while everyone townread him

[Auro]

Bayesian, such big words

[Auro]

our lynch fate is in Auro's hands.

[Auro]

VOTE: Acryon

L-1

[Auro]

Am I wrong though? You can vote Eve and hope someone comes by to hammer. You can vote Acryon and know at least I'll be around to hammer begrudgingly. We're that close on the deadline.

It was at the weight of my responsibility, not out of disagreement with you!

[Auro]

And this is part begrudging because I *actually* want to lynch Skitter

[Auro]

We live lives of compromise

[Auro]

We should compare Skitter and GL notes very thoroughly the next day, if I'm alive

[Auro]

Well, I guess 1/0 could move to Eve if they want to; then GuiltyLion decides.

[Auro]

I don't think that I will need to.

VOTE: allo

okay I'm done then

Please unvote and have the townbloc members vote him.

UNVOTE:

townbloc go

I think Molla and Karnage could swap, personally

I think you're alone in that regard

I'm good being the copblock

If Molla!scum didn't notice the crumb, pretty daring to insist on being in the copbloc.
If Molla!scum did notice the crumb, a little weird to vote Allo immediately (or maybe didn't read, since it was a 2 minute delay?)

I'm not sure Molla as scum happily sheeps me though, altho he thought the Acryon vote was not sheepable. Hmm.

[Auro]

What's odd about this is that all three wagons are D1 lynch bloc

[Auro]

I still think it's better to lynch from the Cop bloc due to likely existence in the bloc, and Skitter is easily then the best lynch.

[Auro]

If Acryon flips town, I won't really -oppose- an Eve wagon, but if Eve flips town we *definitely* lynch Skitter after that.

[Auro]

VOTE: acryon

i'll sheep Atarashi

ok i read it and it was ok Atarashi

i agree with your points that his tone/selection of words feels a little fake sometimes

auro why did you stop thinking Titus' townslip was a townslip?

also i think Auro is town so i'm just going to sheep him

VOTE: acryon

Hmm that reasoning is a little weird when she already did scumread Crayon for other reasons. It's interesting that both times she votes Crayon it's "I'm sheeping X"

[Auro]

idk i'll probably sheep whatever Luca does but yeah your vote seemed a little opportunistic

From a different completed game where she was town, I guess sheeping is a common enough feature of her play.

[Auro]

it was fun playing with you nonetheless, deep apologies if you're town - means paranoia got the better of me.

[Auro]

Town's definitely gonna need a lot of luck if you are town

[Auro]

I believe she was on board with me about skitter Titus being the most likely, though I don't remember if that was before or after the MT kill that we talked about it.

-Smart

So this WAS a scumslip, right?

[Auro]

Skitter, your ability to dodge being the lynch after just killing or lynching everyone who hard scumread you is INSANE.

Smart, why can't you just roll town with me sometime dude?

[Auro]

Very enjoyable game and playerlist.

I apologize for behaving like a dictator D1, lul. As I noted in the dead thread, if I see your names in any sign-up list I'm definitely gonna join.

[Auro]

I really admire how everyone didn't react emotionally to being scumread or pushed, and took it in stride!

Also, NSG, the setup was simple and lovely. Perhaps there could be a tweak or two to the hoods part since they weren't much utilized.

[Auro]

Subject: Mini 2136 | Mafia Hideout

k, i shall keep that in mind
i kinda want auro to go soon tho, like maybe we nk him tonight, he's too sharp for his own good (<3 auro)

Aww <3
You mentioned you didn't understand why I began to push you over something - what specifically, could you quote? I'll explain!

[Auro]

maybe they should just stay open forever?

Even if they do, I feel it's plausible people get too lazy to post in them. I'm trying to think of any additional mechanics that can be added to the hood to incentivize people to use them, altho that would sorta remove the simplicity of the setup.

[Auro]

Smart, why can't you just roll town with me sometime dude?

I wish I could! Then I might actually get to play with you for more than a couple days

You should read the dead thread!
I was planning to 180 on you if I made it to lategame because I know scum!Smart keeps me alive when I "obvtown" read him

[Auro]

Lol! GL was town simply from his activity I think.
Sorry GL, I genuinely do enjoy arguing and walls

[Auro]

Oh that. Well, the specific reason in my post was a mistake I made interpreting yours - but there were quite a few other strong reasons I thought I had to want your lynch too.

[Auro]

Oh many times I vote due to aggregate reasons, like a tipping point of sorts. In that instance it was that you weren't grokking my reasoning or disingenuously denying my reasoning (yet again, is what I felt).

[Auro]

I and Eve did put forward a version argument pretty strongly, no? That the people off wagon are suspect, and that you're competent enough to actually go for that kill.

[Auro]

I saw on/off wagon as NAI then, because once I *know* the TA I wouldn't make any efforts either way and just go with what town tells me to do. Out of curiosity, suppose you and 1/0 were both in the townbloc, would you have killed Allo?

I was betting that Titus would be lynched in LyLo as well.

[Auro]

I'm very glad that I was correct in that argument! Next time I'll focus on putting my arguments across in better words.

[Auro]

i felt like i was spewing so much bs

EXACTLY - that's part of how I scumread you, I KNEW you understood. And you did this for like basically every argument I was throwing.

Fun stuff

[Auro]

The benefit would be that he gets pushed anyway D2, probably to claim, and town would probably think scum didn't find his crumb. I would personally have advocated to keep him around for another day and instead kill someone I felt threatened by.

[Auro]

well played skitter and Limit!

i'm just proud of myself for being right on skitts for most of the game

We were the dead thread paragons :3

@Skitter: I definitely relate to that position. Twice in games I've had pages upon pages of wall wars with Thor while being a bit daft intentionally (as he was making pretty valid points). And town always just scumread him somehow as a result and lynched him, lulz. Fun when it works!

[Auro]

That doesn't sound like a benefit... it sounds like we let a townie get cleared for no reason.

That is, if it's a given that scum spotted the crumb.
Town would *probably* think scum didn't spot it otherwise.

Allo from my PoV would not just be not dangerous, but I'd know town would be trying to lynch him the next day as well.

[Auro]

I don't see why tricking town into thinking we didn't spot it helps at all. It's not like people were forming reads on the basis of who would or wouldn't have seen it.

Both ways. My prediction then would've been that they would.

[Auro]

Can we just all sign up for the same game with this player list

Yes! NSG count me as a pre-in if this happens.

[Auro]

I meant more like for any game in queue, but I would play this game again too

I didn't mean this particular game, but I meant NSG as a mod, to make sure we're all in the same game
We could plan /inning like scum quickhammers though lol

[Auro]

I was townreading you until you began to become inactive, and then said this in pre-LyLo:

look guys im not "doing" anything to do anything I'm just like trying to lynch scum and it's pretty poe'd so I'm not super stressed

That's when I started reversing on you :$ I think if you had kept up the activity it would've helped slightly!

[Auro]

Understandable. I'm also gonna take a break from Mafia after my current games, unless we're doing the invitational thing

[Auro]

I like the Coalition setup a lot!