Open 779: Pick Your Power X/Y Game Over!

[Elmo TeH AzN]

Vote Count 2.06

Dunnstral (1)

- Not_mafia,

datisi (1)

- DonCorleone,

DonCorleone (5)

- Iconeum, Doctor Drew, Cat Scratch Fever, Farkset, DoctorPepper

DoctorPepper (3)

- Skitter30, Datisi,

Not_Mafia (1)

- JacksonVirgo

Not Voting (2) :

Almidia, Dunnstral,

With 12 Alive, 7 Votes To Lynch.
Deadline is in: (expired on 2020-06-03 10:00:00)

[DonCorleone]

so, what's the tea friends?

[DonCorleone]

no idea why Datisi is getting a total pass today but he's not voting me which is mild +points

VOTE: drpepper

would still prefer in [datisi, NM, drew] for today but I'm also okay with compromising on drpepper or icon. it's actually a bad look for both of them that they're on me imo, and correspondingly a mild improvement from datisi that he's avoiding it despite my pushing him. the flip side of that is that if he thinks I'm going down anyway then he might want to stay off in the hopes of me softening on him once people look at where I was trying to go and why scum wanted to lynch me today > the alternatives

[DonCorleone]

why does that "make you unsure" exactly? like that's a pretty easy thing to say no?

unsure as in I don't know if scum would think to say it, as in tonally it's quite casual and that's giving me a bit of pause

I still think you're very likely scum. whatever happened to that meta-defence you were going to provide?

do you think faking tone like that is out of my scumrange? or is that the tone of that post strikes you as different than my tone in other posts?

you were gone for 3 days

i'm debating with myself if it's worth digging around for the links i need when (1) you probably won't care either way and (2) there's a chance you get lynched today kekw

It's less that I don't think you'd be capable of it and more that I just don't know if scum would think "yeah, I should couch my bus in this and make sure that people know I'm only changing because it's EoD" vs trying to get credit for the switch by making the justification around "yeah, I see now how aldus is scummy etc so I think he's a better alternative because of that" sort of deal

and yeah, I was, but that's surely still no reason not to post it so that I could look when I get back AND for the benefit of people other than me (although apparently no-one else thinks you're scummy lol)

[DonCorleone]

The more i play this game, the more i think that town lying or town wanting to keep secrets is a cancer against town victory. I mean, i understand that people want to have fun with their information but it needs to be outed when it's useful, keeping it to your death is not going to help town win, it only helps your ego feel satisfied.

We should not lynch outside of don/dunn because there is no reason to do so, this 1v1 makes neither of them town, the VCA is terrible against both. I'm much more inclined to believe dunn is the true cop, but it doesn't have to be a town cop - that's a theory i want to test later - whereas doncorleone has done nothing towny so far.

The jailkeeper should out because it helps us win. It does not need to say who he's going to block. It doesn't even need to say he's jailkeeper or tracker, just that there is a person occupying that slot which puts his life on the line on the account of saving the cop. Scum cannot kill everyone in a single night.

-Farkran

there is no 1v1 though? why is the VCA so terrible, and how has your position changed on me so fast from "in my top TRs" to "has done nothing towny so far"? because if you thought it was a meme claim, which is what you've said, then you were finding me towny BASED ON PLAY. which means that I cannot see how you're now claiming that I've done nothing towny.

I also don't see the relevance to the first bit of what you've posted here. I outed as soon as it became a risk. I'd thought the cop was probably in JV/NM if we had one, and that they'd check me and let me keep up the fake claim as cover. I didn't think through that it would out me as fake claiming if scum tried to role block or JK me, which dunn pointed out, but as soon as it became clear that it was a risk to town, I outed and explained why I went for it.

do you seriously think CSF is scum here? I don't think CSF is ever scum after that D1, and that means that my calling a fake inno there was very minimal risk, ESPECIALLY given that if I was killed tonight, everyone could look at CSF again knowing that the inno was faked.

and finally, if I were scum here, why would I not just keep up my fakeclaim against dunn and go for getting him lynched? it would buy me and my scum team 2 NKs and a relatively wasted day phase tomorrow because everyone would have known I was being lynched every time. it's also a huge gamble if for scum!me to not keep up the fake claim and go for getting dunn lynched because it would make a lot of sense for him to check me, at which point backing down would just be a guaranteed Lynch on me.

it's like you're disregarding all of the reasons I'm town to keep pushing the idea that one of dunn or me should be lynched today, and that now I've admitted the fake claim, thereby clearing dunn, that it should be me

[DonCorleone]

Dc you really should not have done that. It sounded like a fake-claim, especially the checking csf bit

I wasn't necessarily planning to go for that and was kind of hoping that it would be an issue that could be brushed to the side. like I said, I feel very confident that CSF is town, and I needed my claim to be believable to scum if I still wanted to try to draw the NK. I was aware that scum could have thought I was joking and not targeted me for that reason.

[DonCorleone]

Town wouldn't pick RB over doctor. At least i want to hope so. Therefore it's pointless to have doc/rb claim, if they're town they shouldn't claim, if they're scum they won't.

Anyways, do you guys have experience with doncorleone or dunn to say that this kind of play is town indicative for them? Because to be honest i don't, and their VC is really bad. I'd rather have DC removed today, avoid wifom and go for a partial mech/partial read-based progression than let both of them live and regret it later. Pursuing a pure read-based lynch in this gamestate is a bad strategy imo and it leaves more questions unanswered than we have now.

Datisi could be bussing scum but it's nowhere near my best bet, even when considering outside of the cops.

-Farkran

also, why is my VC so bad when you were removing me from that pool earlier? why are you now so insistent on lynching me, and why would you regret it later?

[DonCorleone]

Do you think that if scum had a PR and a Goon remaining, the Goon would attack? I believe so

yeah probably

[DonCorleone]

I'd still much rather lynch doncorleone today. I don't want him anywhere near lylo. However, with the purpose of cooperating with town if we don't want to go there, i can compromise on {Iconeum, Datisi, DoctorPepper}

you also have practically the same pool as me, and the only way I'm a liability in lylo is if people keep trying to paint my actions as scum motivated as opposed to town motivated, which is the narrative that YOU YOURSELF ARE CREATING in order to push for my lynch because of me being a lylo liability. it's a circular argument

why should we lynch DC? he's a lylo risk
why is he a lylo risk? because he did an anti-town thing
does that mean he's scum? no, but he's a lylo risk

^^^that's damn near to what your argument is, minus that you're now arguing that VCA is worse for me than for others + dismissing all the prior reasoning you had on town!me

[DonCorleone]

I think that what I did was pro-town overall. there was a chance for me to eat the NK last night, and if dunn had checked me then I would have had an even better chance if I'd not made the midl screw up of not claiming "no useful result" or something, in case I'd been countered

ftr, if there's a 1s vig who shot me or melody you should prob claim now because I think it would be clearing for me and confirm that we have a town doc or that there's a jk in the game

[DonCorleone]

The bad play may have been fake claiming cop and providing elaborate justifications for your night actions

If scum knew you were fake claiming there's no reason for you to continue fake claiming. People won't believe me if I try to cc on day 3

Also, you pushing me day 1 for doubting your claim is suspect considering you're not the role you said you were

But whatever, I'd probably need to out today regardless; I checked JacksonVirgo, he's town

Good clear

VOTE: donc

Haven't read past that and won't until Tuesday

lol and we're acting like this slot will be fine to have in lylo, also that he's one of the first people on me

moving icon back down to low scumpool

[DonCorleone]

Do you want him around for lylo?

funny how the scummiest slots in the game are keen to sheep the votes on me and argue that I'm a lylo liability, despite dunn pointing out immediately after this that we're a ways off that yet, and lynching me is just going to get town there faster. also, acting like there aren't multiple other slots that aren't going to be just as hard. like, based on that logic, we should be lynching NM today 100% because have fun sorting 20 posts of content and trying to decide if its scum or mislynch bait being pushed in lylo

whereas if you can't see that I'm town by lylo with me spewing as hard as I can, that's a you problem not a me problem

[DonCorleone]

I'd still much rather lynch doncorleone today. I don't want him anywhere near lylo.

ok
dc is scum fake-claiming cop ... what does he think the real cop is going to do ... not check him? is he just gambling from like p2 that there isn't a cop?

walk me through what scum!dc is thinking all game

right, thank you

[DonCorleone]

jv why are you so scummy this game ?

skitter, what's your take on drew in the PT? has he been active/solving there?

[DonCorleone]

I'd still much rather lynch doncorleone today. I don't want him anywhere near lylo.

ok
dc is scum fake-claiming cop ... what does he think the real cop is going to do ... not check him? is he just gambling from like p2 that there isn't a cop?

walk me through what scum!dc is thinking all game

I thought DC claim was a meme until he offered a inno on CSF. That was the moment when i stopped believing it was a meme a considered DC as a true cop because town lying about innos should never happen if you actually care about winning the game.

As an obvious (since DC isn't a true cop) consequence of that statement, Dunnstral counterclaimed, then DC retracted the claim. As a result, now we have an outed cop and no more info than we had before. This is a perfect situation for a scum gambit if they couldn't get their hands on the good roles - maybe they didn't expect to lose one of their own d1 and doncorleone wanted to bait a counterclaim assuming that only he would fall, but once the cogs started running they had to continue with the plan regardless of d1 result.

It's not just a mech or policy lynch though, doncorleone played antitown + has a terrible vote progression + why wasn't he killed n1? Unfortunately this is also true for dunn, except that dunn would have never been killed n1

Anyways, now DC will never be nk'ed, so we will meet in lylo unless we win earlier, which is not a bet i am willing to make. DC must be removed today, Dunn must be protected without getting blocked (hence why the jailkeeper should claim now) and offer results each day.

-Farkran

I've already made points (just above) that would work as responses to this and I don't want to hit a dead horse but one final point is that you seem very eager to ascribe a scum motivation to what I've done instead of looking at it and trying to discern if it's scummy or towny -- you seem to have decided that it's scummy and are now trying to argue to support that. instead of thinking about my logic from the situation where I'm town and how it makes sense from that point of view. namely, what was the point in trying to bait the NK if it just meant giving up the claim immediately the next day, especially when I hoped that the cop would have checked me and would know I was an inno, so they'd know not to CC, scum would be forced to take my claim seriously, and the real cop would be able to out tomorrow with an additional clear. or if scum were blocking me, maybe they'd have made another day if I'd had the foresight to claim blocked or to refuse to confirm my result.

you seem to be trying to actively create the notion that I'll never be NK'd but that's dependent on everyone choosing to interpret my play as scummy and not seeing how town motivated it was.

not to mention, how is my vote progression so terrible when I have literally the same reads as you by and large? think about what you're saying

[DonCorleone]

farkran has slipped a bit for me but I still think he's town

I've seen him tunnel based on his own (wrong) logic more than once before and I'm inclined to think that's what he's doing here. but I don't like that he's trying so hard to justify pushing my Lynch today or the angle that he's coming at it from. I just don't think him specifically coming at it from a bad angle means he's scum

[DonCorleone]

The slot should claim. If they kill him, you are left alive, which is a positive outcome for the town. If you die, we will know that the doc/rb slot is scum.

doesn't saying "if there's a town JK don't be on dunn tonight" yield the same results without outing the slot?

Assume this ^

What happens tomorrow if dunn claims blocked?

-F

scum has a role blocker or jail keeper..? unless you think scum!Dunn CC's me not knowing that I'm fake claiming and assumes he's winning that if I'm not, and is willing to die tomorrow to do it?

[DonCorleone]

then we know at least one of the doc/rb and jk/tracker slots are scum?

counterpoint: jk/tracker slot claims today, neither dunn nor they die, dunn claims blocked. do we just mindlessly lynch the jk/track claim tomorrow? i still don't see how them claiming today helps us.

this is very reasonable but reasonable =/= town

I do agree that jk/tracker outing today is the Wrong Play(TM) though

[Farkset]

My position towards you DC is that, once you have faked a inno result, your gambit stopped being protown. I never believed you were a true cop until that precise moment. That action is the reason why you have been counterclaimed, why we are in this situation right now, and why you shouldn't survive the day in my opinion.

If you look at your own 1v1 against dunn in the very early d1, in retrospect it doesn't look towny at all - if you are not a cop, you should realize that the true cop might pick your claim up, because your pov is unique in terms of knowledge of what you should be looking for: a cop crumb aimed at you. I only realized it

after

rereading with added knowledge

which you already had

, and that is one of the reasons why you should be the lynch today.

The other reason, independent of the claim, is that your vote progression, in hindsight of the flip, is quite bad and you should admit that yourself. Look at the VC 1.04 to 1.09 by ISOing the mod. This is also true for dunnstral though, but he will have to survive and produce results each day to make up for it, whereas you declared you cannot and you will never be nk'ed for the sake of wifom.

To be honest i think you should give up and embrace your lynch today, while at the same time giving your thoughts (which you did) about who is scum on your wagon. A green flip would *strongly* suggest to look into pepper/ico, a red flip kinda helps their position a lot rn. Your mileage may vary on my own slot, but i don't particularly care about dying, the only piece of valuable information i have will be easily identified tomorrow

-Farkran

pedit: yeah i still think the jailkeeper slot should claim, but they clearly disagree with my suggestion and unfortunately it's not particularly AI if the consensus is with them. This will be postgame discussion, not interested in pursuing it further rn

[DonCorleone]

if on the very off chance there's a town 1s vig who tried to shoot last night but either failed or hit melody, i think you ought to claim that now

my feelings on town!skitter are getting stronger as well, I like that she's having similar thoughts to me

[DonCorleone]

well more accurately, a non-2 higher than him in the draft
he was a goon, which means he didn't get what he wanted. if he were the highest player he probably would have tried to make a more conservative pick taht he thought was likely to have gone through
(of course, he may have, but it failed anyways)
but i think there's a decent chance where he was low-ish so tried for something a bit more risky from scum's pov and failed to get it, but felt comfortable trying for it since there was someone above him

what do you think are the odds of there being scum in the upper part of the draft, like in drew/fark/NM based on the same logic?

[DonCorleone]

mm, not really, no, but i'm not townreading anyone in the actual sense of the word

might be because i'm feeling pretty demotivated for this game right now (i say right now but it's obviously been like that for a good while)

how similarly does scum!you act towards your partners in newbies and non-newbies? i remember what made me walk back from scum!you in 1992 was you saying you wouldn't bus that hard in a newbie.

if you're feeling unmotivated then are you actually likely to go through and verify what skitter says to you here? because otherwise this seems like a kind of lazy/empty question as scum!skitter could just lie with impunity. I don't think skitter has a set play style as scum either, meaning she'd probably be able to provide a game or two of meta in either direction should she decide to lie about what she honestly thinks

[DonCorleone]

i have alimdia/CSF/skitter/jv/drdrew/dunn as do not lynch today
and n_m as maybe do not lynch due to draft order

okay, explain why for these then

explain what your read on me is. you've made comments about how you think I might get lynched and you don't seem unhappy with it. do you think I'm scum here ?what did you think of my gambit? if you do think I'm scum why have you been hesitant to join on me? what do you think it says that a significant element of your TRs are not voting me?

[DonCorleone]

its really not a good look for drew to be popping in to argue that I shouldn't see lylo and to use that as a justification to vote me while not actually seeming to put effort in which is why I want skitter to clarify if he's behaving differently in the PT or not

[DonCorleone]

@skitter, JV, dunn, CSF where would be willing to lynch today? there is a not inconsiderable effort to Lynch me that I think is flowing mostly from bad slots, but it's going to turn into an inevitability unless you work with me to create a counter