Newbie 2011 - Game Over

[Battle Mage]

although jokes aside - if you're going to lynch me do it because my reads suck, not because I'm a fun and determined player who is good for newbie development. Maybe just don't let me get to LyLo, because I'll probably screw it up.

[Micc]

Votecount 1.04

GeneralWu (3) -

gobbledygook, midwaybear, AGar

midwaybear (2) -

Apogee, Freddiethelady

gobbledygook (1) -

votato

votato (1) -

Battle Mage

AGar (1) -

SleeperSoul

Not Voting (1) -

GeneralWu

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to Eliminate.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2020-06-21 22:00:00).

[Battle Mage]

I don't think he's playing badly per say because a few of the points were valid (like the early votes). The other points might have been conf bias and wanting to get an early gut read right

If you think AGar is actually conf-biasing on me because I made a couple trigger-happy votes early on, you are definitely implying he is a bad player. AGar has played with me before - we literally both lost a game together today because I prematurely mislynched him as town - it's inconceivable that he thinks me doing a -2/-1 vote is scum-indicative. NAI at best.

I'm not down with a GeneralWu wagon, so let's go AGar instead.

VOTE: AGar

He has to be scum in 1 of these games right!?

[AGar]

In other words, AGar, you wanted to do the same thing to me, that you accused me of being scum for doing?

That doesn't sound helpful/constructive/pro-town...

Ahh, there's the dense, incapable of reading BM I remember.

I wanted to wagon you for reactions and to get reads. I thought your fake show of letting people know it was L-2/L-1 looked like a nice way to cover up some rolefishing, it was extra motivation to run you up. I don't peg you as someone who might claim in a hurried manner because you feel pressure, but I do think reads will be generated from it.

Hold on, AGar, you're voting GeneralWu because he defended me? If you're saying he's scum by association, shouldn't you still be voting for me?

Oh, is it because GeneralWu has votes on him, and you're not really that worried about wagonning scum, anyone will do?

I'm turning a corner on you with that last post I think.

No, he's not scum by association. Scum have motivations to defend town and scumbuddies - this isn't some new breakthrough. My inkling is independent of any read on you.

Aaanyways, apparently I misremembered what "chainsaw defending" was because lol4yearbreak. The point was less about the nature of the defense and more that GWu came almost immediately to BM's defense.

---

Just on the SE note: SE doesn't *mean* anything. SE is a way to designate players who have played a certain number of games before, but that doesn't make them good/right/informed. It just means they've played enough games to be tagged that way. I took a four year break from Mafia, and even before that game in 2016, I hadn't played in a solid year+. I didn't brush up on the wiki when I came back, I just jumped back in and decided to relearn riding the bike. There *used* to be an IC in every newbie game who also served the purpose of teaching the right way to play. They held a bit more heft in explaining acronyms/gameplay/etc, and they had obligations to teach the right way to play but they don't exist anymore for whatever reason.

P-Edit: Gambler's fallacy. Nice.

[Battle Mage]

AGar, rather than get into a silly tit-for-tat with you, can I make a suggestion:

if Battle Mage and GeneralWu were town, who would be scum? I'd like to see some more breadth in your reads.

[Apogee]

My apologizes for not posting in a bit. Was up to other stuff yesterday and this morning. Reread up through now and am going to post a few initial thoughts. I hope to have some time to do closer to real time interactions with people this week, because I’m starting to think those are really useful for understanding where players are coming from.

Not to beat a mostly dead horse, but on the Agar/BM conflict I like how Agar put himself out there and started casing and pushing people. Yeah it’s aggressive, but he had no onus on him to try to make movement occur if he were scum. Mild townlean there

[Apogee]

Yes, I see your point. It seems like AGar might be playing 'bad' on purpose... the question is, why?

This post jumped right out at me. Oh boy in my (admittedly newbie) opinion this sets off a lot of read flags. Mild shade on a player but nothing not easily retractable. Hints of PR hunting. Speculation and asking a question that makes it look like Sleeper is trying to advance the game, but it just hedges.

Let’s VOTE: SleeperSoul

[Apogee]

Re: GeneralWu and the “chainsaw” I’m conflicted because I’ve seen scum defend village for points but also, as I got pushed on for not doing last game, been told as a town if you see what you think is v/v early game you should try to defuse it. It will be interesting to see going forward how general interacts with pushes on players other than him later in the game and compare what motivations exist.

[Battle Mage]

My apologizes for not posting in a bit. Was up to other stuff yesterday and this morning. Reread up through now and am going to post a few initial thoughts. I hope to have some time to do closer to real time interactions with people this week, because I’m starting to think those are really useful for understanding where players are coming from.

Not to beat a mostly dead horse, but on the Agar/BM conflict I like how Agar put himself out there and started casing and pushing people. Yeah it’s aggressive, but he had no onus on him to try to make movement occur if he were scum. Mild townlean there

You're right he didn't have to do it, but I also think he expected a very different reaction from the one he got. 90% of the time there, I think he asserts himself as a town leader and could be able to influence lynches for a day or 2. So I definitely think scum-AGar would have a lot to gain by making that move. In contrast, why does town-AGar go to so much effort to make and over-sell a case on me which he admits is weak, and probably wouldn't achieve anything because he knows I wouldn't be easily rattled even if I was scum.

I think the test will probably be to see whether he can climb down from it easily enough, in which case he could be gung-ho town. Or if he can't, then maybe he's scum outta ideas and just going to beat that dead horse for a while for consistency.

[gobbledygook]

I will catchup tonight

[SleeperSoul]

There has to be scum between AGar and BM. I'm leaning towards BM being scum.

With that out of the way, we should be focusing on players that haven't been pushing the game forwards so much or making themselves readable.

[SleeperSoul]

@Freddiethelady:

I hardly have any read on you, other than a slight scum read from lack of any content. What do you think of Apogee's vote on me?

@gobbledygook:

Same to you, but you have an excuse.

[Apogee]

@Freddiethelady:

I hardly have any read on you, other than a slight scum read from lack of any content. What do you think of Apogee's vote on me?

@gobbledygook:

Same to you, but you have an excuse.

Can I hear from you what you think of my vote on you?

[Apogee]

My apologizes for not posting in a bit. Was up to other stuff yesterday and this morning. Reread up through now and am going to post a few initial thoughts. I hope to have some time to do closer to real time interactions with people this week, because I’m starting to think those are really useful for understanding where players are coming from.

Not to beat a mostly dead horse, but on the Agar/BM conflict I like how Agar put himself out there and started casing and pushing people. Yeah it’s aggressive, but he had no onus on him to try to make movement occur if he were scum. Mild townlean there

You're right he didn't have to do it, but I also think he expected a very different reaction from the one he got. 90% of the time there, I think he asserts himself as a town leader and could be able to influence lynches for a day or 2. So I definitely think scum-AGar would have a lot to gain by making that move. In contrast, why does town-AGar go to so much effort to make and over-sell a case on me which he admits is weak, and probably wouldn't achieve anything because he knows I wouldn't be easily rattled even if I was scum.

I think the test will probably be to see whether he can climb down from it easily enough, in which case he could be gung-ho town. Or if he can't, then maybe he's scum outta ideas and just going to beat that dead horse for a while for consistency.

Interesting theory -- I suppose I am less confident in both that he could actually assert himself and that he thought he could assert himself than you are. I mean I don't want to speak for why he would do it but like this game wasn't moving hardly at all until then so it served at least one town-motivated goal there.

Not entirely sure what you mean with the climbing down and tied to gung-ho town, but yeah there is a week left in D1 certainly time enough to reevaluate slots if necessary.

[SleeperSoul]

Can I hear from you what you think of my vote on you?

Sure. I don't mind your vote on me. I think you're picking up on my over-eagerness to move the game forward.

I am having a general feeling throughout this game that everything is moving too slowly. But this is my first forum mafia game. So I think I just need to get used to the pace of forum mafia.

Also... I haven't addressed the following because I wasn't sure how useful it would be to bring... But I have been somewhat holding back my reads this entire game. Up until now I ~feel~ like the general consensus has been that I'm obviously town. I have a (silly?) fear that by revealing my reads, mafia will know which of them is under the most danger. I do have a tendency towards tinfoil hattery...

I can see how your vote on me is probably coming from a town perspective. I was about to ping you for reads like I did freddie and GG, but your vote on me gave me a slight town read on you. So I pinged the remaining players who I have no real reads on.

[Battle Mage]

There

has to be

scum between AGar and BM. I'm leaning towards BM being scum.

With that out of the way, we should be focusing on players that haven't been pushing the game forwards so much or making themselves readable.

On the contrary, TvT is

possible

- and I'm always wary of people who play the "one of them must be scum" card without committing to a vote.

FoS: Sleepersoul

[gobbledygook]

I think Agar is town. Still catching up though.

[votato]

I think Agar is town. Still catching up though.

based on what?

[Freddiethelady]

@Freddiethelady:

I hardly have any read on you, other than a slight scum read from lack of any content. What do you think of Apogee's vote on me?

@gobbledygook:

Same to you, but you have an excuse.

GG and I aren't the only ones who haven't been posting a lot. the average post is 14.4 right now with me being at 9 posts - thats low but all the players with the exceptions of BM and midway have posted lower than the average. why only call us out?

apogee talks about how he likes that Agar puts himself out there by casing and pushing people in post 130. is that sheeping? or is that a newbit trying to learn and imitate something that makes sense to him? cause i've done that and been accused of sheeping when i was just trying to imitate. i guess that's up to me to decide so to answer your question sleeper, im a long way off from establishing which it is. am i missing alternative options?

[Freddiethelady]

Haha, I feel vindicated!

I literally made this same argument when I first saw these questions too, don't worry!

I recall somebody here had read the game in question, so they can presumably vouch for me on that.

I'm assuming someone else made up this list in a game you played in, right? if so, what were the results? was it possible to see if it was more helpful to town or scum? you also said it was interesting to see who took the post seriously and who didn't. why did you say that?

sorry to bring this back up but it just occurred to me that it might be helpful for the future

[Freddiethelady]

There has to be scum between AGar and BM. I'm leaning towards BM being scum.

With that out of the way, we should be focusing on players that haven't been pushing the game forwards so much or making themselves readable.

why out of the two did you select BM as scum?

[Freddiethelady]

I think Agar is town. Still catching up though.

based on what?

gg, im interested in your answer also.

[votato]

There has to be scum between AGar and BM. I'm leaning towards BM being scum.

With that out of the way, we should be focusing on players that haven't been pushing the game forwards so much or making themselves readable.

why does there have to be scum there? is there no chance that its TvT?

[Apogee]

Also... I haven't addressed the following because I wasn't sure how useful it would be to bring... But I have been somewhat holding back my reads this entire game. Up until now I ~feel~ like the general consensus has been that I'm obviously town. I have a (silly?) fear that by revealing my reads, mafia will know which of them is under the most danger. I do have a tendency towards tinfoil hattery...

I'm stewing on the rest of your post, and would like to hear other's takes on how it sounds, but I wanted to address this specifically.

This is an exact trap I fell into my first game here (Newbie 2003) where two people townleaned me in the first few pages and then I didn't put my cards out there. This lead to both town and scum then pushing on me, and I had to argue myself out of that hole. Don't do this. Share what you have, for a few reasons. With 7 townies, someone is almost certainly going to scumread a mafia at some point. It's unlikely the maf are going to just shoot you instantly if you happened to scumread one. And like if you don't share your reads with the rest of us, we a) might miss something important about the mafia, and b) will be suspicious of you. Generally, being hesitant to give reads is not going to make you look good to us.

[Micc]

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