Newbie 2011 - Game Over

[AGar]

Yeah, there’s lots of little things from SleeperSoul that make me still townlean him.

Ok so who are your scumreads?

[Freddiethelady]

BM and Agar in your posts 169 168 id like to ask you both what are the chances that sleeper is making rookie mistakes in your opinion? his continuous references to his gut-feelsies is bad town behavior, and equally bad as a scum behavior. from what i gather, i assume that a newbie scum would probably be far more hesitant to take a stance on issues since he has to fake his town role, where as a town newbie might appear flaky because of his eagerness to participate. my read on him leans town right now. i think he is an easy target right now because he is active in the game...it feels a bit scummy to shade him for that Agar and BM imo.

As for BM this is the only thing that feels scummy to me about you in this moment. i haven't been able to get a read on the agar except that if its true that he is an aggressive player, then i probably won't interact with him well but i will make an effort to be cordial. im trying to learn still and the aggressive people i experienced the last game i played were downright miserable resulting in suspensions. i really hope it won't be a repeat of that!

midway, tell me more about why you read sleeper as town.

where's the unicorn boy? (hes definitely not an ass with a carrot on his face).

GG I hope you're feeling better!

Thank you everyone for the clarification between pocketing and sheeping.

[Micc]

Votecount 1.06

GeneralWu (3) -

gobbledygook, midwaybear, AGar

SleeperSoul (2) -

Apogee, Battle Mage

midwaybear (1) -

Freddiethelady

gobbledygook (1) -

votato

Battle Mage (1) -

SleeperSoul

Not Voting (1) -

GeneralWu

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to Eliminate.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2020-06-21 22:00:00).

[votato]

freddie has definitely stepped up her game here compared to last game. well done. also, no. you're an ass.

midway is marginally better than last game i was in with him? but town!midway has not yet figured out the whole analysis thing just yet. i've been in 3 games with town!midway now, and haven't seen a single fully explained read.

[AGar]

BM and Agar in your posts 169 168 id like to ask you both what are the chances that sleeper is making rookie mistakes in your opinion? his continuous references to his gut-feelsies is bad town behavior, and equally bad as a scum behavior. from what i gather, i assume that a newbie scum would probably be far more hesitant to take a stance on issues since he has to fake his town role, where as a town newbie might appear flaky because of his eagerness to participate. my read on him leans town right now. i think he is an easy target right now because he is active in the game...it feels a bit scummy to shade him for that Agar and BM imo.

I don't think gut is indicative of alignment in either direction - plenty of the best players I know start their reads off with gut and then progress from there. Sometimes it's just a perception of how you're posting or interacting that can't be defined that gives someone a tell on alignment. I lean mildly scummy on Sleeper based on what I said in 169, namely his seemingly trying to keep a lot of avenues open, but it's not anything that I'm looking to pursue with a wagon at this point. I'm much more happy trying to garner steam on a GWu wagon at the moment, unless Sleeper moves themselves more firmly into a scumread. It looks like you're townreading Sleeper by this post - why are you pushing on midway's townread of him, then?

GWu's posted some surface level content and interaction but doesn't appear to be making any :real: effort to divine the alignments of other players. The defense of BM in 94 still reads too informed to me. 170 uses the word "cautious" a lot when describing Sleeper but that post comes in basically reiterating what BM and I had already posited about Sleeper - it's not a new stance, and it's even - to borrow the descriptor - cautious in and of itself. It hems and haws on the possibility that Sleeper's being cautious but maybe he's just new. Or maybe he doesn't have reads yet. GWu seems very content right now to appear to be scumhunting but not actually contributing to anything.

@midway, gobble

Some scumreads/leans please? Posts that pinged you?

@Apogee

How do you feel about Sleeper at this point? There's been a good bit of posts since #121. Has the read evolved at all?

[AGar]

Oh. Vot, why you voting gobble? Nothing since RVS?

[votato]

VOTE: sleeper

also willingish to go for GWu

[Apogee]

Agar:

I'm still interested in more from SleeperSoul to be sure and have a mild scumread still I think. Interesting although not necessarily AI that 3 people in quick succession agreed with me on it (p-edit and now votato). Your 168 sums up most of what I thought initially on his progression. I want to see a) what the "reads close to his chest" are and b) how he interacts with the game now that suspicion is fairly broadly thrown on him before really deciding to go after that slot hard. Best way to put it is right now his energy is more nervous scum than nervous town.

Other takes: Midway I'm surprised at the lack of content he's posted compared to my previous game with him d1. Whether this is a change in his playstyle or him being hesitant to post as scum I couldn't really tell you but he posted up a storm d1 in Newbie 2003.

[midwaybear]

Some scumreads/leans please? Posts that pinged you?

honestly no scumreads so far. Everyone except for you and BM have played relatively safe games so far.
might have to reread sometime to find posts that ping me. I think I'll try to defend sleeper.

@Apogee

[Freddiethelady]

you're an ass.

Nice rebuttal.

[SleeperSoul]

I'm done serving as bait for scum to jump on... At least intentionally!

I'll try to be as open as possible with my reads going forward. I'm still wary of sharing too much because I do tend to change my mind often, and I don't really want things to get muddled. But it seems like town needs more from me.

Here's a list of all my reads so far.


AGar - Biggest town read. I tend to agree with/understand a lot of what he's saying, which makes me think he's coming from a town mindset.


Apogee - Town read. I like that he seems to be trying to save me from myself in 148. I think if he was scum trying to pocket me he wouldn't be giving advice like this. Also seems to be trying to help solve the game.


Freddiethelady - Slightly town. We seem to have very different mindstates. I don't understand Freddie's motivation a lot of time. But I remember having similar feelings while reading Newbie 2004, where they were vanilla town.


GeneralWu - Slight town, he seems to be trying to help town solve the game.


midwaybear - Very slight town. Does seem to be trying to solve the game... Or at least trying to look like he is. Having no scum reads seems scummy to me.

gobbledygook - Nothing to read. could be mafia lurking.

votato - Slight scum. Doesn't seem to trying to move the game forward. Seems to be opportunistically jumping on me.

Battle Mage - Biggest scum read for most of the game. Although I'm slightly worried that this game as been mostly town vs town fighting eachother and scum lurking in the shadows.

[midwaybear]

Midway I'm surprised at the lack of content he's posted compared to my previous game with him d1. Whether this is a change in his playstyle or him being hesitant to post as scum I couldn't really tell you but he posted up a storm d1 in Newbie 2003.

also, 2003 was an iconic game. My favorite game of mafia thus far. This game has been nice too though!
Also, I did have a comparably slow start in 2003 too, and this game has been moving slower too. My defense of Sleeper has been pushed to tommorow

[Micc]

Prodding gobbledygook.

[GeneralWu]

BM and Agar in your posts 169 168 id like to ask you both what are the chances that sleeper is making rookie mistakes in your opinion? his continuous references to his gut-feelsies is bad town behavior, and equally bad as a scum behavior. from what i gather, i assume that a newbie scum would probably be far more hesitant to take a stance on issues since he has to fake his town role, where as a town newbie might appear flaky because of his eagerness to participate. my read on him leans town right now. i think he is an easy target right now because he is active in the game...it feels a bit scummy to shade him for that Agar and BM imo.

I don't think gut is indicative of alignment in either direction - plenty of the best players I know start their reads off with gut and then progress from there. Sometimes it's just a perception of how you're posting or interacting that can't be defined that gives someone a tell on alignment. I lean mildly scummy on Sleeper based on what I said in 169, namely his seemingly trying to keep a lot of avenues open, but it's not anything that I'm looking to pursue with a wagon at this point. I'm much more happy trying to garner steam on a GWu wagon at the moment, unless Sleeper moves themselves more firmly into a scumread. It looks like you're townreading Sleeper by this post - why are you pushing on midway's townread of him, then?

GWu's posted some surface level content and interaction but doesn't appear to be making any :real: effort to divine the alignments of other players. The defense of BM in 94 still reads too informed to me. 170 uses the word "cautious" a lot when describing Sleeper but that post comes in basically reiterating what BM and I had already posited about Sleeper - it's not a new stance, and it's even - to borrow the descriptor - cautious in and of itself. It hems and haws on the possibility that Sleeper's being cautious but maybe he's just new. Or maybe he doesn't have reads yet. GWu seems very content right now to appear to be scumhunting but not actually contributing to anything.

@midway, gobble

Some scumreads/leans please? Posts that pinged you?

@Apogee

How do you feel about Sleeper at this point? There's been a good bit of posts since #121. Has the read evolved at all?

I have to agree about gutreads not being AI.
Although I did lose my first game here because I was correctly gutread by someone as scum and then hammered.
Also I agree with a lot of the things you mentioned about Sleeper. Agreeing or having similar thought processes isn't necessarily "not contributing to anything".
Why do you say my defense of BM was "way too informed"?

Agar:

I'm still interested in more from SleeperSoul to be sure and have a mild scumread still I think. Interesting although not necessarily AI that 3 people in quick succession agreed with me on it (p-edit and now votato). Your 168 sums up most of what I thought initially on his progression. I want to see a) what the "reads close to his chest" are and b) how he interacts with the game now that suspicion is fairly broadly thrown on him before really deciding to go after that slot hard. Best way to put it is right now his energy is more nervous scum than nervous town.

Other takes: Midway I'm surprised at the lack of content he's posted compared to my previous game with him d1. Whether this is a change in his playstyle or him being hesitant to post as scum I couldn't really tell you but he posted up a storm d1 in Newbie 2003.

Hmm I reread Sleeper's posts and I kind of get the feeling that Sleeper is probably a bit more nervous towny than nervous scummy.
He reminds me of certain townies playing forum mafia for the first time.
Honestly, this wagon on Sleeper happened kind of quickly.

Also regarding midway's contribution, I feel like there are some games with a lot of content and a lot more ways to contribute, and some games with not as much content and thus not as many ways to contribute, so I think it's pretty natural to see people's contribution fluctuate depending on the game situation.

Apogee is pretty towny with this post.

I'm done serving as bait for scum to jump on... At least intentionally!

I'll try to be as open as possible with my reads going forward. I'm still wary of sharing too much because I do tend to change my mind often, and I don't really want things to get muddled. But it seems like town needs more from me.

Here's a list of all my reads so far.


AGar - Biggest town read. I tend to agree with/understand a lot of what he's saying, which makes me think he's coming from a town mindset.


Apogee - Town read. I like that he seems to be trying to save me from myself in 148. I think if he was scum trying to pocket me he wouldn't be giving advice like this. Also seems to be trying to help solve the game.


Freddiethelady - Slightly town. We seem to have very different mindstates. I don't understand Freddie's motivation a lot of time. But I remember having similar feelings while reading Newbie 2004, where they were vanilla town.


GeneralWu - Slight town, he seems to be trying to help town solve the game.


midwaybear - Very slight town. Does seem to be trying to solve the game... Or at least trying to look like he is. Having no scum reads seems scummy to me.

gobbledygook - Nothing to read. could be mafia lurking.

votato - Slight scum. Doesn't seem to trying to move the game forward. Seems to be opportunistically jumping on me.

Battle Mage - Biggest scum read for most of the game. Although I'm slightly worried that this game as been mostly town vs town fighting eachother and scum lurking in the shadows.

I agree with your read on AGar.
I also townread Apogee, but not because of the advice-giving. Anyone can give you advice like that, so it's generally NAI. In fact, in my experience both town and scum players can give advice to first-timers.
About Freddie, I don't think a one-game sample size is enough to judge her, and I don't quite understand why you townread her because she says things that are different from what you think. I also don't think meta-reading someone is enough, because she can purposely emulate her playstyle in another game.
About midway, he hasn't done much this game to be honest.
About gobbledygook, he also hasn't done anything yet. Also he said he wasn't active because he was sick, so he's probably not intentionally lurking.
About BM, I think he's pretty towny. Also, why do you think this game is mostly TvT fighting?

Also why were you "intentionally serving as bait for scum to jump on"?
This line kinda makes you seem like you're trying to cover up your mistakes from earlier by saying "oh yeah I was purposely messing up".

Also I just realized that while talking about Sleeper's reads, I posted a readlist of my own lol.

[gobbledygook]

Huh. Do newbies have shorter prod ranges. Interesting

I will be here today

[Freddiethelady]

BM and Agar in your posts 169 168 id like to ask you both what are the chances that sleeper is making rookie mistakes in your opinion? his continuous references to his gut-feelsies is bad town behavior, and equally bad as a scum behavior. from what i gather, i assume that a newbie scum would probably be far more hesitant to take a stance on issues since he has to fake his town role, where as a town newbie might appear flaky because of his eagerness to participate. my read on him leans town right now. i think he is an easy target right now because he is active in the game...it feels a bit scummy to shade him for that Agar and BM imo.

I don't think gut is indicative of alignment in either direction - plenty of the best players I know start their reads off with gut and then progress from there. Sometimes it's just a perception of how you're posting or interacting that can't be defined that gives someone a tell on alignment. I lean mildly scummy on Sleeper based on what I said in 169, namely his seemingly trying to keep a lot of avenues open, but it's not anything that I'm looking to pursue with a wagon at this point. I'm much more happy trying to garner steam on a GWu wagon at the moment, unless Sleeper moves themselves more firmly into a scumread. It looks like you're townreading Sleeper by this post - why are you pushing on midway's townread of him, then?

GWu's posted some surface level content and interaction but doesn't appear to be making any :real: effort to divine the alignments of other players. The defense of BM in 94 still reads too informed to me. 170 uses the word "cautious" a lot when describing Sleeper but that post comes in basically reiterating what BM and I had already posited about Sleeper - it's not a new stance, and it's even - to borrow the descriptor - cautious in and of itself. It hems and haws on the possibility that Sleeper's being cautious but maybe he's just new. Or maybe he doesn't have reads yet. GWu seems very content right now to appear to be scumhunting but not actually contributing to anything.

@midway, gobble

Some scumreads/leans please? Posts that pinged you?

@Apogee

How do you feel about Sleeper at this point? There's been a good bit of posts since #121. Has the read evolved at all?

midway's townread of sleeper? humm i must have missed that. let me get back to you on that. i am on the fence about townreading sleeper, yet i will say that im moderately more comfortable reading the posts that way. {i said "my read on him leans town...(because) i assume that a newbie scum would probably be far more hesitant to take a stance on issues since he has to fake his town role, where as a town newbie might appear flaky because of his eagerness to participate"}. im willing to wait

a little while

to see if the flakiness is indeed eagerness to participate...confirmation bias is real and i might just be hoping/searching for that so i need a little more from him.

Some scumreads/leans please? Posts that pinged you?

honestly no scumreads so far. Everyone except for you and BM have played relatively safe games so far.
might have to reread sometime to find posts that ping me. I think I'll try to defend sleeper.

@Apogee

midway, it seems that a lot of people pointing out that you're posts are rather limp...then you say this. it doesn't seem like you're trying to prove anyone wrong. also, apparently you already have been defending him. care to comment? (still going to look into this @agar.)

I agree with your read on AGar.
I also townread Apogee, but not because of the advice-giving.

Anyone can give you advice like that, so it's generally NAI. In fact, in my experience both town and scum players can give advice to first-timers.

About Freddie, I don't think a one-game sample size is enough to judge her, and I don't quite understand why you townread her because she says things that are different from what you think. I also don't think meta-reading someone is enough, because she can purposely emulate her playstyle in another game.
About midway, he hasn't done much this game to be honest.
About gobbledygook, he also hasn't done anything yet. Also he said he wasn't active because he was sick, so he's probably not intentionally lurking.
About BM, I think he's pretty towny. Also, why do you think this game is mostly TvT fighting?

Also why were you "intentionally serving as bait for scum to jump on"?
This line kinda makes you seem like you're trying to cover up your mistakes from earlier by saying "oh yeah I was purposely messing up".

Also I just realized that while talking about Sleeper's reads, I posted a readlist of my own lol.

hey General, where is your read on votato? I agree with the bold statement above about both scum and town giving advice to newbies. and i am interested in hearing why you think BM also about his read being too informed.

one last point: i played my first game with midway he was cheerful and generally casual - actually it reminds me of how BM looks in this game. that reminds me, @agar, your post about BM being dense jumped out at me making me think about doing some meta reading...which i have no time for. ugghhh i know should probably do my own research but it seems the jury is out on how important meta reading is. people i respect who have played here before have said that its helpful to get a baseline for personality and gamestyle. i guess i have to do it even though i really,

really

don't want to. thoughts anyone?

@sleeper (one newbie to another) in my last game, i was fool tremendously by a player who gave good advice, was kind, and encouraged me. when she flipped scum i was flabbergasted. utterly speechless. i aspire to be like her when i grow up (in this game)...i typically try not to imitate liars irl fyi lol

[Freddiethelady]

the end of my post to general was supposed to say: where did you get this "why do you say my defense of BM was "way too informed"?" not:

why you think BM also about his read being too informed

[votato]

Freddie did you get a lot of advice from someone since your last game? Or have you read a bunch of guides or something?

[midwaybear]

Freddie did you get a lot of advice from someone since your last game? Or have you read a bunch of guides or something?

coached in the scum pt

[Freddiethelady]

Your advice helped me reflect on how my posts are perceived and about reading between the lines - it encouraged me to be more deliberate. I also read some guides, game's rules over again, and the dead-thread/mafia-thread from our last game. I am the kind of person who needs to apply the rules before things become apparent which is why things really started to click while reading those threads. It gave me the bird's eye view about how town players protect their interest and how scum players manipulate as well as the overlap first hand. I'm still learning but overall I do feel a lot better about participating!

[Freddiethelady]

Freddie did you get a lot of advice from someone since your last game? Or have you read a bunch of guides or something?

coached in the scum pt

Ha! I had a feeling someone would say that. See my post above. Votato and I played together before and after the game we talked about how I can improve. we're friends irl.

[SleeperSoul]

Also why were you "intentionally serving as bait for scum to jump on"?

It's a strategy I adopted from IRL play. My friends all know I don't like playing as scum, and I'm too easy to read as scum. So I play scummy in the beginning to try to get scum on my side and then turn on them. I was always confident in my ability to be read as innocent. This was in an Avalon setup where scum didn't know who one of their members was.

I was trying to do some 5D plays, but I realize I'm probably not good/readable enough to do it here.

[votato]

hmm im leaning towards the scum PT being more likely, but we will see. if you are scum, your partner is probably (in decreasing order) {gobbles, apogee, GWu, sleepersoul}. gobbles would be the most likely

[votato]

Also why were you "intentionally serving as bait for scum to jump on"?

It's a strategy I adopted from IRL play. My friends all know I don't like playing as scum, and I'm too easy to read as scum. So I play scummy in the beginning to try to get scum on my side and then turn on them. I was always confident in my ability to be read as innocent. This was in an Avalon setup where scum didn't know who one of their members was.

I was trying to do some 5D plays, but I realize I'm probably not good/readable enough to do it here.

did you learn anything by doing it?

[SleeperSoul]

Also why were you "intentionally serving as bait for scum to jump on"?

It's a strategy I adopted from IRL play. My friends all know I don't like playing as scum, and I'm too easy to read as scum. So I play scummy in the beginning to try to get scum on my side and then turn on them. I was always confident in my ability to be read as innocent. This was in an Avalon setup where scum didn't know who one of their members was.

I was trying to do some 5D plays, but I realize I'm probably not good/readable enough to do it here.

did you learn anything by doing it?

I'm not sure yet.