Open 87 - Baby Too Much Scum - Over before 641

[farside22]

Some people seem to be arguing about who is scummy. I think about the fact that I now need to take a shower with sitting here all this time.

votes:
Oman 1 vote: (Armlx)
Netran 2 vote: (skitzer, Crazy)
Crazy 3 votes: (OGML, Netran, iamausername)
iamausername 1 vote: (Goatrevolt)

Not voting

Oman


8 people 5 to lynch
Deadline August 17th 2:00pm PST

[armlx]

Didn't answer my question as to how you feel. Do you think I'm scum, scummy, worth pressuring, what? A vote is a lot of things.

I think you are scum. I think OGML is scummy.

[Netran]

My point is that he basically provided merely a summary of the events without any real indication or even implicit declarations of why those actions were scummy. This reeks to me of scum joining a bandwagon and faking reasons to be on it.

I mean, I could go through armlx's posts and say, "armlx first chose not to take a side in the GR/Oman debate. He later questioned Oman. Eventually he decided to vote for Oman despite originally not taking any sides" and then vote for armlx, but what am I really saying? I'm not showing how his actions are scummy, I'm merely just summarizing what he's done in a manner to suggest that I have legitimate reasons for that vote.

Now I can understand your point better. At the beginning I read Rage's post as [summary] + (implicitly I'm declaring that Crazy is suspicious for these reasons). Your example is quite different from our situation (the vote-unvote and fos-unfos happened in few posts and a short space of time), but I admit that reading Rage's post I could have biased it with my point of view that filled the blanks.

Skitzer, if you have access can you comment on this? (at least on the analysis part)

I'm still anxiously awaiting skitzer's analysis, and I still think there is a fairly decent chance that he's scum based solely on meta arguments against alvinz.

[skitzer]

I didn't really find much to comment on, except the argument between Goatrevolt/Oman, which I didn't find that interesting. If one of htem had to be scum, it'd probably be Goatrevolt.

I find it weird how Goatrevolt wants an analysis when he knows he's likely to be the focus of it, based on the current pages.

[armlx]

I find it weird how Goatrevolt wants an analysis when he knows he's likely to be the focus of it, based on the current pages.

Why is that weird?

[Goatrevolt]

I find it weird how Goatrevolt wants an analysis when he knows he's likely to be the focus of it, based on the current pages.

I want an analysis mostly so I can get your opinions to help my read on you. I'm not sure what you're really trying to imply by that statement...that I'm narcissistic and really just want everyone to focus on me?

[iamausername]

Hi armlx. I believe you've just pulled ahead of The Fonz in the competition to see who I can end up in the most games with. Hi everyone else that I am much less familiar with, too.

Maybe he's trying the tried and true "replacement defense" where he simply replaces out at the first sign of pressure and hopes it dissipates.

Not sure if you're implying this is a scumtell or not, but I'm sure it's not; Rage did the same thing in a newbie game I'm in, and his replacement was lynched and turned up town. Not saying this proves that I'm town, because I'm guessing it's more likely a nulltell for Rage, but it's definitely not a valid scumtell.

So, most of the game so far has been taken up by the Oman/Goatrevolt spat, which has been very informative. I'm definitely seeing Goat as town. Oman's a bit more sketchy; I don't like the way he justifies his vote based on things that happened after he made it.

That said, I think the most interesting reaction came from Crazy.

Your vote was mostly in the random stage. Oman's wasn't. Thus, it is not hypocrisy.

And... bandwagoning? Just because it's the 3rd vote doesn't mean it's bandwagoning!

Unvote
Vote Goatrevolt

Now, the vote Crazy was talking about here was actually the

second

vote Goat received, but this suggests that Crazy thought he was putting a fourth (L-1) vote on Goat. On page 4. Based on total craplogic. Then as soon as he comes under any pressure at all for this, he takes away the vote and tries to deny all responsibility for it. Looks like he was hoping to slip onto the Goatwagon without drawing attention to himself and cracked when he realised it failed.

He later amends his position to "I'm thinking that both of them are town, actually." This, plus the fact that Crazy's been answering for Oman all over the place, makes a Crazy/Oman scumteam look extremely plausible. Once he realised they weren't going to be able to push the Goatwagon through to a lynch, he tries to pull attention away from his buddy.

So yeah,

Unvote, Vote: Crazy

. My vote was already on Crazy, but I want to make it clear that I am now the one voting for Crazy, not Rage. That early Goat vote is definitely the scummiest thing to happen in this game.

---

Also thinking it's likely that non-Crazy/Oman scum (ie. the SK) is coasting by and letting Oman & Goat keep all the attention, which I'm seeing signs of in OGML and alvinz (but not so much skitzer).

[Crazy]

If I was scum with Oman, I wouldn't answer for him. I'm sure he can answer for himself just fine.

I'd wish everyone would forget about my mega-flipflopping/bandwagoning that one night, because I have no idea what I was doing then.

I think GR is strawmanning the attack against him, and my defense of Oman a little bit. My guess is that it's just a bunch of misinterpretation. I like his stuff on Rage.

Oman is fine, IMO. I have no idea whether his anecdotal scum-tell is real or not, but since a wagon will *almost* never develop on Page 1, I don't see what's so scummy about it. I mean, there's no way that GR would actually be lynched that soon anyway, and building a case against him only provides the town more information.

Armlx's aggression towards Oman worries me. I don't even see how Oman's case was even related to the "Too Townie" argument. It was about finding people who are trying too hard to look town, not people who do look town.

Unvote Netran

, because I don't have much of a case on him unless if either Oman or GR turns up scum.

[Goatrevolt]

@Crazy: Again you'll have to show me where I've straw manned the attack against me. He attacked me for "looking townie" by putting reasoning with my vote. I think my reaction to that vote was entirely justified.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I don't think Crazy is scum. His vote + unvote on me was certainly a suspicious action, but I've been leaning town on him from the rest of his play. His willingness to jump into any discussion and not be afraid to say what he thinks even if it's not the popular opinion gives me town vibes.

@iamausername: The "replacement defense" comment was mostly a joke. I say mostly because from my mafia experiences scum replace out more often than townies. Either way, I'm not going to use it as justification for pushing your case, and Rage mentioned he was on vacation in another game, so it's not much of an issue.

Also, you think Crazy/Oman are a scum team, however you think Crazy is scum partly because she is defending her scum buddy Oman. Doesn't it logically follow that you should then be voting for Oman, since that logic only holds up if Oman is actually scum?

[armlx]

Armlx's aggression towards Oman worries me. I don't even see how Oman's case was even related to the "Too Townie" argument. It was about finding people who are trying too hard to look town, not people who do look town.

Oman's logic that reasoning = scummy is definitely a "Too Townie" argument, as reasoning is generally a pro-town thing.

[farside22]

Prodding OGML last post July 30th

[Oman]

Armlx's aggression towards Oman worries me. I don't even see how Oman's case was even related to the "Too Townie" argument. It was about finding people who are trying too hard to look town, not people who do look town.

Oman's logic that reasoning = scummy is definitely a "Too Townie" argument, as reasoning is generally a pro-town thing.

Not, that was my point, reasoning ISN'T a pro-town thing in that time. Mid-day, sure! But not in random.

[armlx]

Not, that was my point, reasoning ISN'T a pro-town thing in that time. Mid-day, sure! But not in random.

But we were definitely past random then. I really am not seeing how you could make these illogical assumptions, and as such am going with the alternative of you being scum.

[Crazy]

Not, that was my point, reasoning ISN'T a pro-town thing in that time. Mid-day, sure! But not in random.

But we were definitely past random then. I really am not seeing how you could make these illogical assumptions, and as such am going with the alternative of you being scum.

How can you say it was "definitely past random" when two people in fact made a random vote after GR's vote?

[armlx]

How can you say it was "definitely past random" when two people in fact made a random vote after GR's vote?

The end of random is as soon as anyone makes a vote with logical reasoning. By definition GR's was past random.

Notice the logical BTW. This discounts the dumb counter-random votes that sometimes occur.

[skitzer]

@armlx and Goatrevolt: What I'm trying to say is that Goatrevolt is under plenty of suspicion now, and he is trying to get more people to focus upon him?

[armlx]

@armlx and Goatrevolt: What I'm trying to say is that Goatrevolt is under plenty of suspicion now, and he is trying to get more people to focus upon him?

Since when is either half of this true? I'm honestly confused.

[Oman]

How can you say it was "definitely past random" when two people in fact made a random vote after GR's vote?

The end of random is as soon as anyone makes a vote with logical reasoning. By definition GR's was past random.

Notice the logical BTW. This discounts the dumb counter-random votes that sometimes occur.

Actually GR kicked off "past random" then and when you really look at it, no vote can define itself simply by its own existance. Circular logic BTW.

[armlx]

Actually GR kicked off "past random" then and when you really look at it, no vote can define itself simply by its own existance. Circular logic BTW.

Why not? Clearly the random phase of the game was over as something was done in it to prompt action that was non-random.

[OhGodMyLife]

Here. Post tomorrow. Sorry, was at Yosarian's Parents' Beach Bam.

[Oman]

Actually GR kicked off "past random" then and when you really look at it, no vote can define itself simply by its own existance. Circular logic BTW.

Why not? Clearly the random phase of the game was over as something was done in it to prompt action that was non-random.

But you can't use his vote to justify his vote.

[armlx]

But you can't use his vote to justify his vote.

He justified his vote with logic. I'm showing you how you can't just say "It was too early for logic".

[Oman]

But you can't use his vote to justify his vote.

He justified his vote with logic. I'm showing you how you can't just say "It was too early for logic".

But you're saying it wasn't too early to use logic because he used logic. See the circle?

[Goatrevolt]

I think Oman is correct regarding the circular argument bit, but I also think that this discussion is missing the point.

Oman, do you think that the first person to place a non-random vote is scummy if they provide reasoning for it, and not scummy if they don't provide reasoning? Isn't that almost contradictory, because if they don't provide reasoning, then how would we know it's a real vote and not just another random vote. Rage and Netran were both random voting additional players. If I voted armlx without reasoning, it would be assumed to be another random vote. If I vote armlx with reasoning, it becomes clear that it's a real vote.

@armlx and Goatrevolt: What I'm trying to say is that Goatrevolt is under plenty of suspicion now, and he is trying to get more people to focus upon him?

This is false in so many ways. First of all, there are more people in this game than me. When I ask for your analysis on the game, that doesn't mean I'm asking you to give your opinion on me. You have yet to show where I'm asking you to focus on me. Secondly, what pressure on me?

[farside22]

bump for vote count.