Newbie 2011 - Game Over

[GeneralWu]

Hi yes sorry I haven't been particularly engaged.

No offense to either of the players involved but the 300+ posts from Sleeper and BM going at each other just hurt to read

The case on GeneralWu makes sense. Like I interacted with that a little yesterday and I agree with the initial problems. The whole ongoing crusade against meta thing is a defense making me tilt my head. Like that's how you choose to defend yourself? Kind of wack imo.

Freddie's return up here was really far from inspiring. Trying to pivot the votato NKA away from her slot as well is NAGL.

Sleeper continues to just make me go ?!?. Like he's practically TWTBTWTBW at this point? Like I can barely repress my desire to just yeet that slot out of the nearest airlock.

I was pointing out that people were using a pretty small sample size to read me, and that meta isn't necessarily a reliable way of reading people.

[Apogee]

Hi yes sorry I haven't been particularly engaged.

No offense to either of the players involved but the 300+ posts from Sleeper and BM going at each other just hurt to read

The case on GeneralWu makes sense. Like I interacted with that a little yesterday and I agree with the initial problems. The whole ongoing crusade against meta thing is a defense making me tilt my head. Like that's how you choose to defend yourself? Kind of wack imo.

Freddie's return up here was really far from inspiring. Trying to pivot the votato NKA away from her slot as well is NAGL.

Sleeper continues to just make me go ?!?. Like he's practically TWTBTWTBW at this point? Like I can barely repress my desire to just yeet that slot out of the nearest airlock.

you ok to hammer then?

I'll hammer but not for a day (or two) IRL probably. Ideally I'll reread a little more first

[Battle Mage]

Hi yes sorry I haven't been particularly engaged.

No offense to either of the players involved but the 300+ posts from Sleeper and BM going at each other just hurt to read

The case on GeneralWu makes sense. Like I interacted with that a little yesterday and I agree with the initial problems. The whole ongoing crusade against meta thing is a defense making me tilt my head. Like that's how you choose to defend yourself? Kind of wack imo.

Freddie's return up here was really far from inspiring. Trying to pivot the votato NKA away from her slot as well is NAGL.

Sleeper continues to just make me go ?!?. Like he's practically TWTBTWTBW at this point? Like I can barely repress my desire to just yeet that slot out of the nearest airlock.

you ok to hammer then?

I'll hammer but not for a day (or two) IRL probably. Ideally I'll reread a little more first

I'm bored now and want to see a flip. You said at the start of Day 1 you wanted to be my friend - now is the time to prove it!

[Apogee]

My heartstrings are truly tugged

But nah give me a bit first.

I'll absolve you from needing to continue to highpost.

Plus I want to give Agar as much time as he wants

[Battle Mage]

i just feel like generalwu's response to suspicion has been mostly about "where did i go wrong?" rather than really fighting it hard. Defeated?

[GeneralWu]

@Battle Mage do you have anything else against me aside from these?

Also sorry this is long; if I put it in a spoiler the post is probably going to get messed up.

jeez, that post went wrong.... but anyway. GeneralWu, I will say to your credit that you were feeling very town to me in real time, until I looked back at your ISO.

We should have wagonned GeneralWu on Day 1 in hindsight. I've read his 2 most recent completed newbie games on this site, and he has a pretty obvious scumtell.

Less significantly, but also worth noting, in his last newbie game as scum here, he was joking around about being scum, just like here. He did not do this in his most recent completed towngame.

Generalwu sure loves joking about being scum, huh?

My favorite mafia term is "red check".

What are yours?

I forgot to actually do the RQS because I was looking at a thread on a math website about alleged corruption in contest cutoffs.

1. I'm mafia.

2.

My favorite color is red, as in "red check

".
3. Getting lynched D1 definitely sucks, so I'd be like a 10/10.
4. I'd be your friend because who wants enemies?

"you guys" is scummy.

Also if any of

you guys

have noticed, SleeperSoul is kind of jumping around all over the place.
He changes his mind pretty quickly.

I hope the cop doesn't investigate ME tonight:

Honestly, sometimes the first-timers say things that don't quite make sense and turn out to be town. These are the kinds of people who would make a good cop check or something, because they're harder to read.

another little joke about being scum:

Because it's unnatural to refer to a group that includes yourself and not use "we"?

We killed votato last night, and we are going to kill you tonight.

But seriously though, I think you might be overthinking this. People tend to use "town" and "we" interchangeably, and regardless of what word they use, it's probably NAI.

GeneralWu - bit of an honesty complex?

Votato has actually been a bit opportunistic this game.

When people bring up things against Sleeper, he immediately goes and votes Sleeper despite not giving an explanation.

When you brought up the PT joke, he immediately starts speculating on who might be Freddie's partner.

Not gonna lie,

this is scummy.

Honestly, sometimes the first-timers say things that don't quite make sense and turn out to be town. These are the kinds of people who would make a good cop check or something, because they're harder to read.

Overall, I'm sort of getting the feeling now that Sleeper is just trying his best to solve the game, even though some of his reasoning might not make sense.

After deleting my initial cold hard gut read on BM from my mind, I looked at his iso and I actually liked his pressure on votato. It would be helpful if BM was active right now for me to get a better read, but right now it's leaning town.


I don't mean to be rude, but at what point do we seriously consider GG as a policy lynch for inactivity?

I kind of want to switch my vote to them, but I guess I'll just UNVOTE: Battle Mage for now.

I don't think policy lynches should happen in a 9p because there aren't that many players.

But honestly

, GG said he was sick a few days ago...
And the majority of his posts are activity posts like "I will look at this later". But he doesn't actually keep his promises.
If he keeps saying he's sick for like weeks on end then that should raise some red flags.

uh you realize it could be lack of interest which is not necessarily AI?

uh you realize it could be lack of interest which is not necessarily AI?

I would feel better about that if he told us that was the reason why. If he's posting in other games, it's super easy to say "the other games I'm in are taking up all my attention and effort right now" or whatever.

I agree with Sleeper.
Also if you're in too many games and you don't have time to play them, it's probably best to replace out of some of them. It's honestly better than playing some and lurking in others.

By the way,

if anyone has noticed

, GG said "I'm sick", and then on that same day he made a bunch of posts in a different forum. Is he lying about being sick or something?

not an honesty tell, but I hate these appeals^

am i supposed to convince you that you are scum
yeah, you might be town though. Having doubts on sleeper even though I defended him, so I might go votato-sleeper for my solve. But we probably shouldn't be speculating teams yet
GG and GWu I am decently confident in being town. I never scumread lurkers so yeah.
pedit: oops maybe

imagine having a lurker as your biggest scumread.
BM, how strong is your read on sleeper soul.

Why do you say that you don't want to scumread a lurker?
I don't think there's anything wrong with having a lurker as your biggest scumread, as long as you have reasons for the scumread.
Also "I

never

scumread lurkers" is kind of extreme

to be honest.

BM and Agar in your posts 169 168 id like to ask you both what are the chances that sleeper is making rookie mistakes in your opinion? his continuous references to his gut-feelsies is bad town behavior, and equally bad as a scum behavior. from what i gather, i assume that a newbie scum would probably be far more hesitant to take a stance on issues since he has to fake his town role, where as a town newbie might appear flaky because of his eagerness to participate. my read on him leans town right now. i think he is an easy target right now because he is active in the game...it feels a bit scummy to shade him for that Agar and BM imo.

I don't think gut is indicative of alignment in either direction - plenty of the best players I know start their reads off with gut and then progress from there. Sometimes it's just a perception of how you're posting or interacting that can't be defined that gives someone a tell on alignment. I lean mildly scummy on Sleeper based on what I said in 169, namely his seemingly trying to keep a lot of avenues open, but it's not anything that I'm looking to pursue with a wagon at this point. I'm much more happy trying to garner steam on a GWu wagon at the moment, unless Sleeper moves themselves more firmly into a scumread. It looks like you're townreading Sleeper by this post - why are you pushing on midway's townread of him, then?

GWu's posted some surface level content and interaction but doesn't appear to be making any :real: effort to divine the alignments of other players. The defense of BM in 94 still reads too informed to me. 170 uses the word "cautious" a lot when describing Sleeper but that post comes in basically reiterating what BM and I had already posited about Sleeper - it's not a new stance, and it's even - to borrow the descriptor - cautious in and of itself. It hems and haws on the possibility that Sleeper's being cautious but maybe he's just new. Or maybe he doesn't have reads yet. GWu seems very content right now to appear to be scumhunting but not actually contributing to anything.

@midway, gobble

Some scumreads/leans please? Posts that pinged you?

@Apogee

How do you feel about Sleeper at this point? There's been a good bit of posts since #121. Has the read evolved at all?

I have to agree about gutreads not being AI.
Although I did lose my first game here because I was correctly gutread by someone as scum and then hammered.
Also I agree with a lot of the things you mentioned about Sleeper. Agreeing or having similar thought processes isn't necessarily "not contributing to anything".
Why do you say my defense of BM was "way too informed"?

Agar:

I'm still interested in more from SleeperSoul to be sure and have a mild scumread still I think. Interesting although not necessarily AI that 3 people in quick succession agreed with me on it (p-edit and now votato). Your 168 sums up most of what I thought initially on his progression. I want to see a) what the "reads close to his chest" are and b) how he interacts with the game now that suspicion is fairly broadly thrown on him before really deciding to go after that slot hard. Best way to put it is right now his energy is more nervous scum than nervous town.

Other takes: Midway I'm surprised at the lack of content he's posted compared to my previous game with him d1. Whether this is a change in his playstyle or him being hesitant to post as scum I couldn't really tell you but he posted up a storm d1 in Newbie 2003.

Hmm I reread Sleeper's posts and I kind of get the feeling that Sleeper is probably a bit more nervous towny than nervous scummy.
He reminds me of certain townies playing forum mafia for the first time.

Honestly,

this wagon on Sleeper happened kind of quickly.

Also regarding midway's contribution, I feel like there are some games with a lot of content and a lot more ways to contribute, and some games with not as much content and thus not as many ways to contribute, so I think it's pretty natural to see people's contribution fluctuate depending on the game situation.

Apogee is pretty towny with this post.

I'm done serving as bait for scum to jump on... At least intentionally!

I'll try to be as open as possible with my reads going forward. I'm still wary of sharing too much because I do tend to change my mind often, and I don't really want things to get muddled. But it seems like town needs more from me.

Here's a list of all my reads so far.


AGar - Biggest town read. I tend to agree with/understand a lot of what he's saying, which makes me think he's coming from a town mindset.


Apogee - Town read. I like that he seems to be trying to save me from myself in 148. I think if he was scum trying to pocket me he wouldn't be giving advice like this. Also seems to be trying to help solve the game.


Freddiethelady - Slightly town. We seem to have very different mindstates. I don't understand Freddie's motivation a lot of time. But I remember having similar feelings while reading Newbie 2004, where they were vanilla town.


GeneralWu - Slight town, he seems to be trying to help town solve the game.


midwaybear - Very slight town. Does seem to be trying to solve the game... Or at least trying to look like he is. Having no scum reads seems scummy to me.

gobbledygook - Nothing to read. could be mafia lurking.

votato - Slight scum. Doesn't seem to trying to move the game forward. Seems to be opportunistically jumping on me.

Battle Mage - Biggest scum read for most of the game. Although I'm slightly worried that this game as been mostly town vs town fighting eachother and scum lurking in the shadows.

I agree with your read on AGar.
I also townread Apogee, but not because of the advice-giving. Anyone can give you advice like that, so it's generally NAI. In fact, in my experience both town and scum players can give advice to first-timers.
About Freddie, I don't think a one-game sample size is enough to judge her, and I don't quite understand why you townread her because she says things that are different from what you think. I also don't think meta-reading someone is enough, because she can purposely emulate her playstyle in another game.
About midway, he hasn't done much this game

to be honest

.
About gobbledygook, he also hasn't done anything yet. Also he said he wasn't active because he was sick, so he's probably not intentionally lurking.
About BM, I think he's pretty towny. Also, why do you think this game is mostly TvT fighting?

Also why were you "intentionally serving as bait for scum to jump on"?
This line kinda makes you seem like you're trying to cover up your mistakes from earlier by saying "oh yeah I was purposely messing up".

Also I just realized that while talking about Sleeper's reads, I posted a readlist of my own lol.

Spoiler:

mmm, i think we should refrain from speculating too much about people's exact roles, as it only serves scum interests. all we need to do is speculate about who is scum. and putting someone at L-1 is generally not a good idea that early on, but at the same time, it draws a lot of attention to you if you are scum. either way, its a bad play imo, so i dont really know how to sort it without more info.

This post is pretty towny.

AGar is generally pretty aggressive. If its AI, i'd say its town indicative.

Trying to solve the game.
Also have you played with AGar before?

i realize that BM always plays like this, but is it a good excuse for doing so? if deadline approaches, i would like to suggest BM for PL

Why would you suggest BM for PL? I didn't see any post where you explained this (although I might've missed something here).

There has to be scum between AGar and BM. I'm leaning towards BM being scum.

With that out of the way, we should be focusing on players that haven't been pushing the game forwards so much or making themselves readable.

why does there have to be scum there? is there no chance that its TvT?

This post also makes votato pretty towny, since it's asking a question.

VOTE: sleeper

also willingish to go for GWu

This post seems pretty opportunistic.

hmm im leaning towards the scum PT being more likely, but we will see. if you are scum, your partner is probably (in decreasing order) {gobbles, apogee, GWu, sleepersoul}. gobbles would be the most likely

Why did you say this? And where is your explanation?

Overall, I think votato has made some efforts to solve the game, but not explaining things and being opportunistic makes him a bit scummy.
I'd say he's at a townlean for now.

yes, ive played with agar before. actually ive played with a significant portion of the lobby before. ive also played with BM before. BM is always scummy and not someone id want around in lylo, so a good candidate for a policy lynch. also, asking questions is not AI. my explanation for my read on freddie is a meta read. i know freddie pretty well, and know what shes normally like. i also have been all her other mafia games, so know what shes like in mafia. like i explained later, the most likely scumpartners are experienced players who have at least some scum equity. but freddie is probably town. i just want that on the record so if freddie is in lylo its there as a reference.

To be honest

, I don't think policy lynches are that good in a 9p due to the lower number of players.

You asking questions makes me think that you're genuinely trying to solve the game, although I do agree that both town and scum can ask questions, so it's not a super strong townlean.

Meta can be wifomed very easily, so it's generally not super reliable.

Freddie did you get a lot of advice from someone since your last game? Or have you read a bunch of guides or something?

coached in the scum pt

Honestly,

for the people talking about the scum PT, I feel like this post wasn't meant to be serious and people were making a big deal out of it.

[AGar]

Just a brief look at two points from yesterday during the RVS where we saw 2 wagons run up to L-2, and one to L-1.

25

Votecount Simmed

GeneralWu (3) -

AGar

, gobbledygook,

midwaybear

midwaybear

(3) -

Apogee, Freddiethelady, Battle Mage

gobbledygook (1) -

votato

Not Voting (2) -

GeneralWu, SleeperSoul[/area]

28

Votecount Simmed

GeneralWu (4) -

AGar

, gobbledygook,

midwaybear

, Battle Mage

midwaybear

(2) -

Apogee, Freddiethelady

gobbledygook (1) -

votato

Not Voting (2) -

GeneralWu, SleeperSoul[/area]

Independent of my reads on anyone:

One scumbag lies in {Gobble/BM/Apogee/Freddie} for sure.
There is only one potential scumbag in {GWu/Sleeper}

GWu scum means BM is all but certainly conf-town. Even the most aggressive of bussing scumbuddies wouldn't throw their partner to L-1 just 28 posts into a game. I would know.

Taking into account the last votecount from yesterday...

GWu/Apogee pairing is almost certainly not a thing.

So GWu's potential partners are {Gobble/Freddie}
If GWu flips town, Apogee would be my first suspect. Midway wagon had way too much resistance for a town wagon to have two scumbags on it.

Apogee's most likely partner is Gobble, followed by Freddie and lastly {BM/Sleeper}

[GeneralWu]

Votecount 2.05

GeneralWu (2) -

AGar, SleeperSoul

SleeperSoul (1) -

Apogee

Freddiethelady (1) -

gobbledygook

Not Voting (3) -

GeneralWu, Freddiethelady, Battle Mage

With 7 players alive it takes 4 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 2 is in (expired on 2020-06-30 19:00:00).

See the deadline here.
BM I feel is kinda suggesting we quickhammer before people get a chance to think.

[GeneralWu]

jeez, that post went wrong.... but anyway. GeneralWu, I will say to your credit that you were feeling very town to me in real time, until I looked back at your ISO.

Also, what part of my ISO is scummy?

[GeneralWu]

Votecount 2.05

GeneralWu (2) -

AGar, SleeperSoul

SleeperSoul (1) -

Apogee

Freddiethelady (1) -

gobbledygook

Not Voting (3) -

GeneralWu, Freddiethelady, Battle Mage

With 7 players alive it takes 4 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 2 is in (expired on 2020-06-30 19:00:00).

See the deadline here.
BM I feel is kinda suggesting we quickhammer before people get a chance to think.

Note how much time is left and BM is suggesting a quickhammer.

[AGar]

Votecount 2.05

GeneralWu (2) -

AGar, SleeperSoul

SleeperSoul (1) -

Apogee

Freddiethelady (1) -

gobbledygook

Not Voting (3) -

GeneralWu, Freddiethelady, Battle Mage

With 7 players alive it takes 4 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 2 is in (expired on 2020-06-30 19:00:00).

See the deadline here.
BM I feel is kinda suggesting we quickhammer before people get a chance to think.

Prolonging the day when no one is actually contributing content only serves to benefit scum as it drains the motivation out of the town and leads to apathy.

[GeneralWu]

i just feel like generalwu's response to suspicion has been mostly about "where did i go wrong?" rather than really fighting it hard. Defeated?

How?
How am I not refuting these attacks?

If anyone is saying "where did I go wrong", it's Sleeper.
Sleeper still hasn't explained any reasons for his reads and is blindly sheeping AGar.

[Battle Mage]

Votecount 2.05

GeneralWu (2) -

AGar, SleeperSoul

SleeperSoul (1) -

Apogee

Freddiethelady (1) -

gobbledygook

Not Voting (3) -

GeneralWu, Freddiethelady, Battle Mage

With 7 players alive it takes 4 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 2 is in (expired on 2020-06-30 19:00:00).

See the deadline here.
BM I feel is kinda suggesting we quickhammer before people get a chance to think.

Votecount 2.05

GeneralWu (2) -

AGar, SleeperSoul

SleeperSoul (1) -

Apogee

Freddiethelady (1) -

gobbledygook

Not Voting (3) -

GeneralWu, Freddiethelady, Battle Mage

With 7 players alive it takes 4 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 2 is in (expired on 2020-06-30 19:00:00).

See the deadline here.
BM I feel is kinda suggesting we quickhammer before people get a chance to think.

Note how much time is left and BM is suggesting a quickhammer.

You realise you quoted yourself here? What's your point? Are you trying to throw shade at me again?

It's hardly a quick hammer, we've been talking for ages, we've reached a consensus and I want to see a flip so I can solve this shizz.

[Battle Mage]

Votecount 2.05

GeneralWu (2) -

AGar, SleeperSoul

SleeperSoul (1) -

Apogee

Freddiethelady (1) -

gobbledygook

Not Voting (3) -

GeneralWu, Freddiethelady, Battle Mage

With 7 players alive it takes 4 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 2 is in (expired on 2020-06-30 19:00:00).

See the deadline here.
BM I feel is kinda suggesting we quickhammer before people get a chance to think.

Prolonging the day when no one is actually contributing content only serves to benefit scum as it drains the motivation out of the town and leads to apathy.

indeed

[GeneralWu]

Votecount 2.05

GeneralWu (2) -

AGar, SleeperSoul

SleeperSoul (1) -

Apogee

Freddiethelady (1) -

gobbledygook

Not Voting (3) -

GeneralWu, Freddiethelady, Battle Mage

With 7 players alive it takes 4 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 2 is in (expired on 2020-06-30 19:00:00).

See the deadline here.
BM I feel is kinda suggesting we quickhammer before people get a chance to think.

Prolonging the day when no one is actually contributing content only serves to benefit scum as it drains the motivation out of the town and leads to apathy.

The thing is people are contributing
Also some people just got back from a break, so hammering before they get a chance to catch up is the equivalent of making people hammer before thinking.

[GeneralWu]

we've reached a consensus

No, there are people who haven't gotten a chance to catch up yet, and they don't necessarily want to hammer eyt.

[GeneralWu]

Hi yes sorry I haven't been particularly engaged.

No offense to either of the players involved but the 300+ posts from Sleeper and BM going at each other just hurt to read

The case on GeneralWu makes sense. Like I interacted with that a little yesterday and I agree with the initial problems. The whole ongoing crusade against meta thing is a defense making me tilt my head. Like that's how you choose to defend yourself? Kind of wack imo.

Freddie's return up here was really far from inspiring. Trying to pivot the votato NKA away from her slot as well is NAGL.

Sleeper continues to just make me go ?!?. Like he's practically TWTBTWTBW at this point? Like I can barely repress my desire to just yeet that slot out of the nearest airlock.

you ok to hammer then?

I'll hammer but not for a day (or two) IRL probably. Ideally I'll reread a little more first

Speaking of quickhammering, this post makes Apogee towny.

[AGar]

For the record, I've said where I stand on everything.

Townlean: BM, Sleeper
Null/Mildly Scummy: Gobble, Apogee
Scumreads: GWu, Freddie

[Battle Mage]

Just a brief look at two points from yesterday during the RVS where we saw 2 wagons run up to L-2, and one to L-1.

25

Votecount Simmed

GeneralWu (3) -

AGar

, gobbledygook,

midwaybear

midwaybear

(3) -

Apogee, Freddiethelady, Battle Mage

gobbledygook (1) -

votato

Not Voting (2) -

GeneralWu, SleeperSoul[/area]

28

Votecount Simmed

GeneralWu (4) -

AGar

, gobbledygook,

midwaybear

, Battle Mage

midwaybear

(2) -

Apogee, Freddiethelady

gobbledygook (1) -

votato

Not Voting (2) -

GeneralWu, SleeperSoul[/area]

Independent of my reads on anyone:

One scumbag lies in {Gobble/BM/Apogee/Freddie} for sure.
There is only one potential scumbag in {GWu/Sleeper}

GWu scum means BM is all but certainly conf-town. Even the most aggressive of bussing scumbuddies wouldn't throw their partner to L-1 just 28 posts into a game. I would know.

Taking into account the last votecount from yesterday...

GWu/Apogee pairing is almost certainly not a thing.

So GWu's potential partners are {Gobble/Freddie}
If GWu flips town, Apogee would be my first suspect. Midway wagon had way too much resistance for a town wagon to have two scumbags on it.

Apogee's most likely partner is Gobble, followed by Freddie and lastly {BM/Sleeper}

This is helpful, although I don't entirely agree with it. If GWu flips scum, I think that makes GG town - given GWu was the only one to really put serious heat on GG for avoiding the thread. It definitely didn't read like distancing, and doesn't feel right as a play if they are scumbuddies, given nobody else was fussed about GG and it could have got him in big trouble for no reason (because GWu's points here were absolutely right).

GWu-scum would, for me, be paired with either Apogee or Freddie only, with the former being more likely. Interested in why you think an Apogee-GWu pair is off the table?

[Battle Mage]

oh i see, because no scum on Day 1 mislynch? yeah maybe, interactions wise i'm not sure though.

[Apogee]

Ok if you all feel confident and have said what you wanted I'll hammer this evening EST (let's say 6-7 hours?)

I want to put a few more thoughts out first.

[GeneralWu]

@BM did you forget about the question I asked you in #955

[GeneralWu]

@BM also if you think that what I said about GG is true, why do you prefer to lynch me rather than him?

[GeneralWu]

The tenor of your posts frequently have been in the "I'm posting to post, but I'm not actually contributing/engaging" vein.

Which ones?

AGar also this

[AGar]

This is helpful, although I don't entirely agree with it. If GWu flips scum, I think that makes GG town - given GWu was the only one to really put serious heat on GG for avoiding the thread. It definitely didn't read like distancing, and doesn't feel right as a play if they are scumbuddies, given nobody else was fussed about GG and it could have got him in big trouble for no reason (because GWu's points here were absolutely right).

GWu-scum would, for me, be paired with either Apogee or Freddie only, with the former being more likely. Interested in why you think an Apogee-GWu pair is off the table?

It was entirely just vested in those two pseudo-VCs and the final VC. Just creating a basis for a little bit of PoE. GWu/Apogee would be a very odd pairing to let the town do all the dirty work on a mislynch yesterday. Just doesn't seem very likely from two newbscum. I also think Apogee would have had more to say about the speedwagon up to L-1 of GWu if they were buddied up, even just calling it out softly.

I can see the argument for GWu PoEing GG, and today's posting even further enforces that - no need to call attention to your buddy if you're getting run up. The potential partners for GWu weren't in any particular order in that post. Just narrowing it down in terms of the lynch pool based on VCs.