Mini 644 - Meerkat Manor Mafia (Game Over!)

[StrangerCoug]

How many votes does ClockworkRuse have on him at this point?

[Rhinox]

Not trying to take Rishi's job, but I think this is the current votecount:

MafiaMann – 4 (wolframnhart, ClockworkRuse, muffinhead, Bogre,

Ectomancer

)
ClockworkRuse – 3 (curiouskarmadog, +mafiamann, +ectomancer)
Ectomancer – 1 (StrangerCoug)
Bogre – 0 (

Cass

)
jonathantan86 – 2 (Rhinox, +Cass)

So that puts clock with 3 votes right now.

[Ectomancer]

You're killing me here Rhinox. Go back and look at ClockWorks posts and see who is the one digging for Power Roles.

There is no more flavor in your pm in that? Nothing at all that might separate you from scum?

Well after some research i did on the show Zaphod is the head meerkats husband if that means anything. if anyone else has a counterclaim go for it.

That's not from your role PM, so no that doesn't help. And at this point a counter-claim could be very bad in my opinion.

Is there

any

flavor in your PM besides what you've posted?

Bolded by me.

This isn't flip-flopping. This is going after scumtells. This is altering your theories based upon new evidence. I didnt like that little exchange by ClockWork with MafiaMann.....at all. It looks to me like he pressing MM to go ahead and reveal if he actually has a power, but wanted to hold back yet, OR, he is looking to see if there might be any extra flavor type addition to a traditional town role just in case. In addition, the example PM by the mod is for a vanilla townie. If ClockWork wants to claim a Power Role later (roleblocker for example) as scum, he would want to know how that flavor sounds from the mod prior to making his claim.

Now do you see why I found his hard pressing for more flavor suspicious enough for a vote? Weak reasoning? Go insult someone else.

[Rhinox]

You're killing me here Rhinox. Go back and look at ClockWorks posts and see who is the one digging for Power Roles.

There is no more flavor in your pm in that? Nothing at all that might separate you from scum?

Well after some research i did on the show Zaphod is the head meerkats husband if that means anything. if anyone else has a counterclaim go for it.

That's not from your role PM, so no that doesn't help. And at this point a counter-claim could be very bad in my opinion.

Is there

any

flavor in your PM besides what you've posted?

Bolded by me.

You see, MM already claimed, and Clock is still voting MM. I interpret Clock pressing for more flavor as sort of saying "are you sure thats all you've got, because thats not enough of a reason to back off". I don't view looking for more flavor out of a claim as hunting for power roles - what I do view as hunting for power roles is looking for lots of role claims.

This isn't flip-flopping. This is going after scumtells. This is altering your theories based upon new evidence. I didnt like that little exchange by ClockWork with MafiaMann.....at all. It looks to me like he pressing MM to go ahead and reveal if he actually has a power, but wanted to hold back yet, OR, he is looking to see if there might be any extra flavor type addition to a traditional town role just in case.

That is kinda the point of a role claim. A last resort "look if you follow through with the lynch this is what you're losing".

Options:
-MM is scum, and can't come up with anything better than claiming normal townie role - lynch
-MM is normal townie, that is all he has to claim - probably lynch when there are no other options; not losing anything important, and we'll learn a lot based on the outcome.
-MM has a power he's not claiming. It would only make sense to not claim a power if it were a protector type role like doc, b/c any other role could be protected by a protector type role if one exists. The risk by not claiming the power is that claiming normal townie is not a good reason to back off unless there is someone else looking scummier, especially when you consider how scummy MM sounded with the no vote, opportunistic "random" and defense that he "couldn't spell right".

In addition, the example PM by the mod is for a vanilla townie. If ClockWork wants to claim a Power Role later (roleblocker for example) as scum, he would want to know how that flavor sounds from the mod prior to making his claim.

This actually makes some sense, but to use it to attack clock is a bit of circular reasoning (If clock is scum, he would want to know how power flavor sounds so he can use it to fake claim later. Clock is searching for extra flavor, so he must be scum looking for a way to fake claim a power role later on.) IMO, this is something to keep in mind for later in the game. Its not enough to warrent an FOS right now.

Now do you see why I found his hard pressing for more flavor suspicious enough for a vote? Weak reasoning? Go insult someone else.

Haha... nice try. I've seen this before. The more experienced scum player gets the newbie to back off by acting irritated, annoyed, and angry, telling the newbie to "shove off" so the newbie sheepishly backs off out of fear of suffering retribution from the big, bad, intimidating, more experienced player. Well I'm not intimidated, and its going to take more than an appeal to fear and emotions to get me to back off. Not saying thats absolutely what you're doing, but you're experienced enough to know there is no reason to feel "insulted" about a comment in a mafia game, and I'm smart enough to realize that.

How about this? MM claimed simple townie and now you're ready to let him off the hook that quickly, but it was unreasonable to let strangercoug off the hook because of the self vote. *contradiction*

I still see no reason why he should be given a free pass to make anti-town moves without being pressured as the very possible scum that he is.

How is it so much of a stretch for me to think that you're hunting for power roles. If you accept every claim as blindly as MM's, then we'll keep going until we force everybody to claim, and that would work out quite well for the scum now wouldn't it? Afterall, nobody is ever going to say "got me, I'm scum... lynch me".

I support the MM lynch because it seems like a good thing for the town. The worst thing a town can do D1 is pressure a power role into having to give himself up. We know MM is not a power role, and there's a good chance he's a lying scum. We made a good, smart pick by attacking MM. The only reason I'm not voting for MM right now is because jonathan, another experienced player, is doing an excellent job of lurking through D1 and i'm not going to give him a free pass to D2.

[Rhinox]

How many votes does ClockworkRuse have on him at this point?

Is there a reason you wanted to know this? It seems a little odd to make a post only to ask how many votes one player has when you can presumedly just count them yourself.

[Ectomancer]

I dont look at join dates when I'm responding to people, I respond to their arguments.

ecto wrote:

In addition, the example PM by the mod is for a vanilla townie. If ClockWork wants to claim a Power Role later (roleblocker for example) as scum, he would want to know how that flavor sounds from the mod prior to making his claim.


This actually makes some sense, but to use it to attack clock is a bit of circular reasoning (If clock is scum, he would want to know how power flavor sounds so he can use it to fake claim later. Clock is searching for extra flavor, so he must be scum looking for a way to fake claim a power role later on.) IMO, this is something to keep in mind for later in the game. Its not enough to warrent an FOS right now.

No, I'm not using circular reasoning. I'm looking for the motivations behind his full court press for flavor. I certainly didn't begin with a motivation to find him scum. I had just agreed with his case.

You

are being overly forgiving (he pressed twice for extra flavor, 'are you

sure

there's not some flavor??') for his behavior. Personally, when my scum alarm goes off harder than it has the whole game, Im switching my vote, regardless of where my vote currently lies.

P.S. - role claims aren't about "this is what you might be losing". It's about whether you believe them or not PLUS the reactions of other players in the game. I think you have your blinders on because you are so focused on getting this first lynch over with. Chill out, scum hunting isn't over just because you think the day might be ending soon with a lynch.

[StrangerCoug]

How many votes does ClockworkRuse have on him at this point?

Is there a reason you wanted to know this? It seems a little odd to make a post only to ask how many votes one player has when you can presumedly just count them yourself.

Because I'm a lazy son of a bitch xD

I think Ectomancer has cleaned up enough of his act for me to

unvote: Ectomancer

, but he's not off the hook in my book, so

FoS: Ectomancer

. I'll consider looking at MafiaMann and ClockwordRuse.

[Rhinox]

I think you have your blinders on because you are so focused on getting this first lynch over with. Chill out, scum hunting isn't over just because you think the day might be ending soon with a lynch.

Notice how I'm still voting jonathan because I want some signs of life, and I'm still pursuing other options as well (i.e. you.) Doesn't seem like I'm simply focused on getting this first lynch over with to me. I'm just not objecting to it if its going to happen. (Read: I think its a good lynch, but I'm by no means suggesting it is the only good play or the end of today's conversation - althought I think thats what you're trying to paint me as thinking.)

You

are being overly forgiving (he pressed twice for extra flavor, 'are you sure there's not some flavor??') for his behavior.

I'm not being overly forgiving because I'm not sure there is something to forgive. You certainly can't accuse me of being overly forgiving without admitting that you're being overly forgiving of MM's comments.

Personally, when my scum alarm goes off harder than it has the whole game, Im switching my vote, regardless of where my vote currently lies.

I'm just not sure your scum alarm should have been going off that hard. I don't agree with your justification for switching from MM to Clock. Your argument (that he's hunting for power roles) falls flat because from my point of view, your actions seem more consistent with power role hunting. (oh look, MM claimed and he's a simple townie. Lets move on and see if we can get someone else to claim.) Unless...

P.S. - role claims aren't about "this is what you might be losing". It's about whether you believe them or not PLUS the reactions of other players in the game.

...you can give me one good reason for believing MM's role claim.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm going to go ahead and

Vote: MafiaMann

. If we assume that the random voting stage stopped with my self-vote, which most of us seem to, then his voting me out of appeasement and for his inability to spell ClockworkRuse's name, which happened after said self-vote, makes no sense. When he finally did vote ClockworkRuse at post #145, he failed to give a reason. I'm sorry, but lame excuses, a lack of reasoning, and popping your head in and out of the game is scummy.

I find ClockworkRuse somewhat believable, especially later on, but

IGMEOY: ClockworkRuse

anyway for his earlier, somewhat panicky actions.

[Ectomancer]

Unless...

P.S. - role claims aren't about "this is what you might be losing". It's about whether you believe them or not PLUS the reactions of other players in the game.

...you can give me one good reason for believing MM's role claim.

Because I believe he was replying without quoting at first, not really comparing the sample PM and his. After he was continually pressed though, I could feel the slight indignation coming from him by his 3rd post (IIRC) when he finally went back and read it and realized, hey wait a second, it is

exactly

what the sample PM was except for the name, why are people pressing me for more flavor?

[Rishi]

Vote Count

MafiaMann – 5 (wolframnhart, ClockworkRuse, muffinhead, Bogre, StrangerCoug)
ClockworkRuse – 3 (curiouskarmadog, MafiaMann, Ectomancer)
jonathantan86 – 2 (Rhinox, Cass)

Not voting: ace1217, jonathantan86

With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.

[Bogre]

@Rhinox: Today is not the time to lynch lurkers, imo. Although your addressment of the weak claims of Ectomancer have been quite good, I must say I've never seen the point in 'I'm voting you lurker answer now'. One vote is not too much pressure on a lurker, just more of a placeholder, imo.

Ectomancer I believe is a good lynch for tomorrow. Look at how he jumps on Mafiamann's bandwagon with very little reasoning, then as soon as that is pointed out, he finds a weak, papery case to jump -off- the bandwagon and try to direct attention away from Mafman.

[ClockworkRuse]

You're killing me here Rhinox. Go back and look at ClockWorks posts and see who is the one digging for Power Roles.

There is no more flavor in your pm in that? Nothing at all that might separate you from scum?

Well after some research i did on the show Zaphod is the head meerkats husband if that means anything. if anyone else has a counterclaim go for it.

That's not from your role PM, so no that doesn't help. And at this point a counter-claim could be very bad in my opinion.

Is there

any

flavor in your PM besides what you've posted?

Bolded by me.

This isn't flip-flopping. This is going after scumtells. This is altering your theories based upon new evidence. I didnt like that little exchange by ClockWork with MafiaMann.....at all. It looks to me like he pressing MM to go ahead and reveal if he actually has a power, but wanted to hold back yet, OR, he is looking to see if there might be any extra flavor type addition to a traditional town role just in case. In addition, the example PM by the mod is for a vanilla townie. If ClockWork wants to claim a Power Role later (roleblocker for example) as scum, he would want to know how that flavor sounds from the mod prior to making his claim.

Now do you see why I found his hard pressing for more flavor suspicious enough for a vote? Weak reasoning? Go insult someone else.

You tell me that I shouldn't be absolutely sure that he is claiming correctly. With his horrible reasoning this far in the game, I wanted to be one hundred percent sure of his claim. I was also hoping that maybe because he was a different role [technically speaking as the the name is different] then the one of the front page that maybe there would have been something just a little bit different.

And I'm hunting for power-roles based on your poor reasoning. If I re-read you, I'm not going to find you hunting for roles am I?


@Coug; Might I ask what these 'panicky actions' are?


@Borge; Your opinion depends on if MM flips scum or not and I don't like the fact that you are already talking about tomorrow's lynch today.

[StrangerCoug]

ClockworkRuse, in your third post of the game, you threw an FoS on not only me but two of the people bandwagoning me. In addition, two votes isn't a lot of pressure—it's actually a bit on the safe side in the random voting stage. In my opinion, though, for three votes on the same person (in a mini, anyway), you need a good reason; however, I think we pretty much agreed to disagree on this point.

...Why are we still discussing the random voting stage at this point?

[curiouskarmadog]

I'm going to go ahead and

Vote: MafiaMann

. If we assume that the random voting stage stopped with my self-vote, which most of us seem to, then his voting me out of appeasement and for his inability to spell ClockworkRuse's name, which happened after said self-vote, makes no sense. When he finally did vote ClockworkRuse at post #145, he failed to give a reason. I'm sorry, but lame excuses, a lack of reasoning, and popping your head in and out of the game is scummy.

I find ClockworkRuse somewhat believable, especially later on, but

IGMEOY: ClockworkRuse

anyway for his earlier, somewhat panicky actions.

if/when clock flips scum, I know exactly where my vote is going next.

[jonathantan86]

@jonathan- Instead of pointing out topics of conversation, you should try to look for posts that you personally find odd and try to post information of your own. Just answer this for now, who do you think looks scummy at this stage in the game?

Fair enough.

Personally I don't understand why everyone is jumping on Mafiamann for voting for SC. AFAIK, during random voting people sometimes give nonsensical reasons. So Mafiamann saying that he can't spell "clock" is not a scum-tell to me. I also don't think that Mafiamann was opportunistic in starting a wagon--if he added a vote, it would only be the second (not counting SC's vote). If we go by Means, Motive, and Opportunity, he did not have the opportunity.

This would mean that I suspect all the people who say that MM is scum because of these things. (But this is only if I am right that the SC vote is not a scum-tell.)

A separate issue is Mafiamann's non-vote in the RV stage, which Rhinox says it's a scum-tell and with IMHO good reasons (he posted this in post 115). So voting for him based on this is acceptable, but not for the SC vote. (And yes, I know I did not vote during the RV stage.)

I'm also surprised that SC and Clock seem to make quite a big deal about the wagon on SC. Clock says that the quick wagon is bad because it would draw discussion to the wagon-ed (post 78,83). I concede that this has happened, but I think it's mostly SC making the noise in accusing the people who voted for him. I don't know if this completely clears Clock of this though, since I don't think there was any danger of lynching SC (or even pushing SC to, say, L-2) so I don't think there was a wagon at all.

For SC, I don't see any benefit to the town if SC keeps on attacking the people who voted for him instead of just conceding that his self-vote was a joke. Firstly, it is a possible scum-tell, and chances are the people who vote for him are not opportunistic (I don't see how a self-vote creates an opportunity) but are interested in putting pressure on him to spur conversation (which means that the vote on SC is a null-tell, except for the possible case that a fellow scum might pseudo-bus him---but in this case we would have to assume that SC is scum). All this impairs the town, so I think SC's actions are anti-town.

[jonathantan86]

Um the reason I asked for the topics of conversation is because all my ideas were based on that and I did not want to miss anything out. So here you go. Well, I noticed that Ecto changed his vote from SC to Mafiamann (post 118) and then to Clock for this reason:

That's not from your role PM, so no that doesn't help. And at this point a counter-claim could be very bad in my opinion. Is there any flavor in your PM besides what you've posted?

I don't see how a counter-claim could be bad...in fact, the moderator has already said that all mafia have safe claims, so there is no possibility that someone else would speak up. And I agree with Ectomancer that asking for flavour is very much like power role hunting.

I'll put a tentative vote on Clock.

Vote: Clockworkruse

[Rishi]

Seeking replacement for ace1217

[Rhinox]

@Rhinox: Today is not the time to lynch lurkers, imo...

[my ommision]

...I must say I've never seen the point in 'I'm voting you lurker answer now'. One vote is not too much pressure on a lurker, just more of a placeholder, imo.

Its not now nor has it ever been my intention to lynch the lurker. The reason for my vote is to try to force the player to participate with good content. A lurker at this stage of the game could be an SK type role trying to avoid saying anything that would make him suspisious, or a scum player sitting by if we're about ready to lynch a townie. Even if thats not the case, making sure all players participate now is important for future days so we can have reads on players and so we have information on record on which to compare to future posts for contradictions. IMO, its important to know everyone's posting style and ideologies as early as possible.

Ectomancer I believe is a good lynch for tomorrow. Look at how he jumps on Mafiamann's bandwagon with very little reasoning, then as soon as that is pointed out, he finds a weak, papery case to jump -off- the bandwagon and try to direct attention away from Mafman.

You speak as if you know and/or expect that we will lynch MM and he will definately be scum... because if MM is town then thats a good reason to NOT consider ecto for lynch. Regardless, as others have said, there is little reason to be talking about D2's lynch right now. Too much will happen between now and then that will change the status quo.

-----------------------------

Glad to hear from jonathan. I got some information so now I will...

unvote

But that doesn't mean to go back into hiding. I do disagree on a couple of your points:

Personally I don't understand why everyone is jumping on Mafiamann for voting for SC. AFAIK, during random voting people sometimes give nonsensical reasons. So Mafiamann saying that he can't spell "clock" is not a scum-tell to me. I also don't think that Mafiamann was opportunistic in starting a wagon--if he added a vote, it would only be the second (not counting SC's vote). If we go by Means, Motive, and Opportunity, he did not have the opportunity.

This would mean that I suspect all the people who say that MM is scum because of these things. (But this is only if I am right that the SC vote is not a scum-tell.)

A separate issue is Mafiamann's non-vote in the RV stage, which Rhinox says it's a scum-tell and with IMHO good reasons (he posted this in post 115). So voting for him based on this is acceptable, but not for the SC vote. (And yes, I know I did not vote during the RV stage.)

Here's the complete situation:

MM - im to lazy to random vote but if i did random vote id vote clock

muffin - vote mafiamann , because not voting in the rv stage can be a scumtell. Therefore this is no random vote.

*meanwhile, coug is getting pressured and voted due to self vote*

MM - vote:strangecougar

Happy

Wolframnhart

et al

- Vote mafiamann for originally saying he would vote clock, then once muffinhead says "not voting in rv stage can be a scumtell" you vote strangercoug instead with no real reason (jokewise or serious) other then to apparently make muffin "happy"

MM - Unvote

The strangecougar bandwagon took off to fast with to little substance to not be scum driven.

Clock - You realize of course that you were on this wagon. Please answer my question in my last post. What was your justification for voting Coug?

MM - it was arandom vote i didnt mean to make a wagon

Clock - You didn't make a wagon, you jumped onto one... ...Why Coug instead of me when you said that if you had to vote you would vote me?

MM - I couldnt speel your name

Everyone - Die Scum!

Let's count the scum tells:
1: not voting
2: opportunistic voting (jumping on SC and calling it random IS opportunistic)
3: appeasement (voting to make muffin happy
4: appeasement again (unvoting immediately after being questioned about voting SC)
5: illogical defense (calling the vote on SC random)
6: illogical defense again (saying he didn't want to start a wagon, when he was actually jumping on a wagon, not starting one)
7: illogical defense again (couldn't spell clock)

If you consider all of that in context, thats an awfully big hole that MM dug himself. It seems quite obviou to me why everyone is jumping on MM. What I want to know is why are you defending MM and then turning around and saying you're suspisious of everyone on the MM wagon? How do you think this will make you look if MM IS scum?

And I agree with Ectomancer that asking for flavour is very much like power role hunting.

I don't think asking for flavor is power role hunting. Looking back, if anything IS power role hunting, its the fact that clock asked MM to claim while MM was still only L-2? That seems to be a little pre-mature to be asking for a claim, even if MM was anxious to claim and asked if he should claim soon.

I would say yes, it would be good for you to claim soon. Plus, please add any flavor your pm might have because the rules state the scum have been given safe-claims.

Especially since MMs question "should I claim soon" was already answered better here:

It would be a good idea to consider claiming, but you don't have to just yet. You must claim at L-1 if you haven't yet.

However, the fact that clock still wants to lynch MM makes me think that he is not a scum that is power role hunting. Otherwise, he would have said he believes MM's claim so he could try to draw out a power role from another player. I still feel that this is only something to keep in mind for later. If we lynch MM today and he is town, then its more believable that clock COULD be power role hunting, but if MM is scum then that just about absolves clock of this accusation.

[Rhinox]

I found something interesting while formulating my last post...

vote:strangecougar

Happy

Anyone notice it?

strangercoug's name is "speeled" wrong in that post... quite ironic, considering the reason for not voting clock was that MM couldn't "speel" his name.

[StrangerCoug]

I found something interesting while formulating my last post...

vote:strangecougar

Happy

Anyone notice it?

strangercoug's name is "speeled" wrong in that post... quite ironic, considering the reason for not voting clock was that MM couldn't "speel" his name.

That slipped my mind. One of the most common mistakes I see with my username is that the second R gets left out, which he does here.

Note that "StrangerCougar", while rarely used, is an acceptable variant of my name because that's the first name I attempted on the first site I used this on. The name was too long, but I thought what could fit was cool-sounding, and it sounds better to me now, so that's what I use.

But yeah, MafiaMann. You vote me claiming you can't spell ClockworkRuse's name and you misspell mine?

[Rishi]

The Bored Woodsman replaces ace1217, effective immediately.

[Ectomancer]

I would say yes, it would be good for you to claim soon. Plus, please add any flavor your pm might have because the rules state the scum have been given safe-claims.

Interestingly enough, I missed this

third

(actually first) request by Clock for additional flavor. As I stated, I believe this is an attempt to make sure that when he finally claims (and possibly wanting to claim a power role), he wants as much information about any additional flavor that might not have made it into the sample PM as possible. Why? So that he doesn't make a stupid flavor mistake simply because he isn't sure what additional flavor a role other than vanilla might have.

[Rhinox]

As I stated, I believe this is an attempt to make sure that when he finally claims (and possibly wanting to claim a power role), he wants as much information about any additional flavor that might not have made it into the sample PM as possible. Why? So that he doesn't make a stupid flavor mistake simply because he isn't sure what additional flavor a role other than vanilla might have.

I agree. This is a much more likely scenario than Clock trying to hunt out power roles. But again, if MM gets lynched and is scum, it mostly invalidates this argument.

[Cass]

Ok, jonathan, i may not agree with you everywhere, but that was good content.

Unvote

Also, just to keep things absolutely clear: I never intened to lynch this paricular lurker. If I want someone lynched I'll generally use the word 'lynch' in my case on them...

This post by Bogre, however, is extremely scummy:

@Rhinox: Today is not the time to lynch lurkers, imo. Although your addressment of the weak claims of Ectomancer have been quite good, I must say I've never seen the point in 'I'm voting you lurker answer now'. One vote is not too much pressure on a lurker, just more of a placeholder, imo.

Ectomancer I believe is a good lynch for tomorrow. Look at how he jumps on Mafiamann's bandwagon with very little reasoning, then as soon as that is pointed out, he finds a weak, papery case to jump -off- the bandwagon and try to direct attention away from Mafman.

That made all my scum alarms go off... First me he makes it look as if Rhinox wants to lynch for lurking, which is obviously false. I find that one or two votes

do

tend to draw the quiet people out, especially if they are town. Lining up lynches at this time is just plain wrong.

Vote: Bogre

Mafiamann looks very scummy indeed. Still, his meta is holding me back from the wagon for now, plus the fact I am in no hurry to end this day.