Micro 959 - Greater Idea Game Over

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Doctor is decent but if you only save one person it's somewhat less helpful because MYLO exists. I can think of many other roles that could plausibly be picked instead. It's just less likely that a player would get two high value PRs, if that makes any sense. But Doctor isn't the end-all best PR.

doctor's value goes down a lot in this setup because you don't know how many nightkills there will be or how many nightkill prevention roles there are - in a normal game with just 1 mafia faction - cop and doctor - your value is way higher because when you protect successfully its almost as good as an innocent result - here you don't have any idea how successful your protects are and your actions create noise. Doctors r esp crappy imo when there's a possibility of multiple factions because if you prevent a cross-kill you're basically setting the town back.

Obv I will pick doctor over a vanilla townie or equivalent - so you know the role I picked is one that I believe is more useful than a doctor or scum - I've already explained why I do not prefer to play scum but if you are going to use the oh he discarded a town PR therefore he's scum - think about this for a second.


1) A player dealt 2 scum-roles doesn't have a choice - he has to be scum - it's just a matter of which scum. He can pick the stronger scum role or the weaker scum role discarding the stronger scum role to set up a wifom and get town-cred.

2) A player dealt Town-PR / Scum has a choice between buffing the town by giving it a PR or adding 1 to the scum count - I think given that there's more town roles than scum roles - it's quite likely most people choose town-PR.

3) Bayesian probability doesn't work in the sense that you say oh he is not likely to be dealt 2 town-PRs therefore if he discarded a town-PR he is scum - you have to incorporate the fact that a town-PR was discarded in the first place into your probability calculation. It's not "what is the probability player X got dealt 2 town PRs" it's "what is the probability that player X got dealt 2 town PRs given the fact that he got dealt at LEAST one town PR, which is basically nearly the same probability calculation as Player X getting dealt a Town PR in the first place.

[Raya36]

VOTE: Starbuck

And you there, bodyguard-discarder-glitch-wagoner. What have you got to say? About my comment. On the glitch wagon. That you're on

ngl this feels a bit like trying to piggyback on the posts against glitch after glitch explained their relationship to the role.

like i get that we're all here trying to figure out Who Did What With What Role but this feels like the laziest sort of execution of it. or maybe i just don't like the tone of it.

This is part of what links up with being hypocritical. It was glitch who was being hypocritical as well.

Fidget, you said that your mind immediately went to suspecting Pooky for discarding doctor but there was 0 mention of starbuck discarding bg until I brought it up. My concern is that either you or glitch decided to use this as an attack on town!Pooky but left scumbuddy starbuck out of it even though the situation was nearly identical.

[Raya36]

admittedly i'm not using the entirety of my brain cells right now but i kind of understand why bodyguard was brushed over as opposed to doctor. i feel in general doctor is a more universal/utilized role and people are more prone to associating THAT with towniness and helpfulness. it's the first thing recognized and thus you're more likely to go ??? over it than bodyguard.

But in the end they're both protective roles and both pro-town. There really isn't a huge difference between the two. I don't find either role fun to be fair but they're still necessary in a game like this.

[Raya36]

This is the first time I've ever played this setup. I'm starting to understand the point of looking at the discards, but I don't think I'm all the way there yet. I'm just going to throw out some ideas and you all can talk about them / ignore them as appropriate.

Starbuck

-

bodyguard

I come from epicmafia also where bodyguard is more like ambusher. This version just takes the bullet for the target. I'm guessing from this discard that Starbuck wants to live as long as she can through the game. I could see this either way

Glitch

-

Mafia Strongman

This is a pretty decent mafia pick if you are forced to play as mafia, so I'm assuming Glitch didn't want to play as mafia.

Not_Mafia

-

Werewolf Miller

This is such a bad discard that I would believe someone takes mafia over it.

NDMath

-

One-shot Gladiator

This is a strong role for someone who is confident they will be townread. maybe NDMath didn't want to have that burden, maybe they aren't confident in their political abilities or ability to town tell, or maybe the other role took less effort? Math has been effecting though, so I doubt that's the case. Not sure on this one.

DoubleDare

-

Tracker

I hate trackers because 1) It's hard for me to nail scum day 1 and 2) it's too much WIFOM even from the tracer's point of view.

Raya36

-

Mafia Goon

This one is pretty easy to understand. I'd take almost anything over goon. So bad the other card could be any other mafia and Raya would probably take it.

Hectic

-

Vanilla Townie

This is a bit bold. I think many players would like to be VT. This discard really says something. I'm not sure what, but it does.

Fidget

-

Alien Silencer

This is a hero discard because silencer is so unfun to be targeted by. Still, I think most people pick it over scum.

PookyTheMagicalBear

-

Doctor

A little different from bodyguard not that I think about it. Imagine your picks are "doctor" or "some mafia card". That's kind of a two-fer if the mafia role is any good- because you are denying the town a doctor. Some people would pick a different town PR over doctor, but that strategy element can't be overlooked.

Ydrasse

-

Wrong Place At the Wrong Time Townie

Universal Miller - ok. Well that could go either way I suppose. Any Town PR would be preferable, but a fun scum card would be better, too. Who wants to be a miller?

[line][/line]

So my reads based purely off discards are:

Townlean

Null
Starbuck
NDMath
Raya
Hectic
Ydrasse

Maybe Mafia
Not_Mafia
Fidget

Scumlean
Pooky

VOTE: Pooky

You got me and glitch backwards. I had strongman and glitch had goon

[Starbuck]

Glitch's quick hop onto Pooky is suspect given the way obvious rolefishing and the overdefensiveness throughout 19 because he felt like Pooky dodged his over-the-top aggressiveness.

In what ways did I rolefish?

How would you determine the difference between regular defensiveness that is NAI, and overdefensiveness that is scummy?

If all of my posts were not fluff, were actual content, and we're creating content, why should I not post them? Which one of my posts that I made should I have not posted then?

I do not like this idea of wanting to throttle content when the content is actually substantive. That's sketchy to me.

Why are you putting words in my mouth? I never said throttle content. My concern is that you piled question upon question on Pooky when he didn't even get to your prior questions yet. I'm just seeing you go after him rather than have a conversation/waiting for his reply before continuing to your next point. That's not helpful to the game state when you're just adding a lot of assumptions. So to me that doesn't feel very substantive and feels like you're creating a firestorm before the person you're questioning can even reply. I don't find that helpful.

As for the rolefishing, starting with your 16, you set him up to fail and are completely unfair. You want Pooky to respond in a specific way, but there's not really a way that Pooky could really answer your questions without referencing his current role and I think you set it up that way so you can say "but I told you NOT to do this" to push suspicion. So I can't blame Pooky's skepticism of you in the following post. Then your immediate jump to "OMG ARE U AVOIDING MY QUESTION" and addition of more questions, alongside a vote, just feels as though you wanted to vote him in the first place and didn't really care about his answers. All of this on Page 1. It just feels like nothing he says is going to satisfy you because you already made up your mind.

Additionally, I can see your point in 46, but again, I still think you set Pooky up to fail because I don't think there was any answer that he could have given that you would have been pleased with, as said in your 32 & 33 when you shirk the responsibility for pushing this topic in the first place. I think you could have gone about it better and have gotten the results you wanted.

And then this like rubbing his face in it because he didn't live up to your expectations just feels real condescending and rude, it's just real lame.

@Pooky - see how I talked about the role I did not choose, without talking about the role I chose? That's what I was asking from you. Do you think DoubleDare is role fishing by asking me why I discarded mafia goon?

Basically, you can keep saying that you said to "not reveal your current role," but you can't get upset when the conversation goes there when you, in fact, led it there despite not wanting him to reveal.

[Starbuck]

My mind immediately went to suspecting Pooky for discarding doctor.

Why? Someone discarding a protective role doesn't automatically mean they chose scum.

I still don't get why nobody is suspecting starbuck for discarding bg on the same logic

We'll get there when this conversation is over.

I just never feel I'm effective in a protective role. I'm not good at anticipating scum actions, so I end up feeling more frustrated throughout the game because either I guessed wrong rather than being helpful, I'm only being useful as a vest, or I protected scum.

VOTE: Starbuck

And you there, bodyguard-discarder-glitch-wagoner. What have you got to say? About my comment. On the glitch wagon. That you're on

I read it. I think you're wrong, making bad assumptions, discrediting good points, and kinda whiteknighty.

What Glitch's question is trying to do is figure out exactly what type of PR I am by trying to figure out why I chose not to be a doctor - hence it's quite rolefishy.

That's what I read on it, too.

hat about you? DO you prefer town or scum? Everyone should probably answer this question actually.

I prefer town, as I don't feel like I have to pick and choose my words or try to find holes in the words of someone who I know to be town. There's more freedom in being town than scum.

He's arguing that he's right not that he's town

THIS. I've been trying to put this feeling into words. Thank you.

[Starbuck]

My Starbuck vote is starting to feel all dusty and out of date

But I will endure! Until she posts some. Then I'll figure this out

Sorry, I ended up in bed most of yesterday after my initial posts, so working through catching up.

[Starbuck]

scumbuddy starbuck

[Hectic]

What's your favourite role, Starbuck?

Some of DoubleDare's wall of discard assessment sounds like he's joking, and I really can't tell.

[Hectic]

Fidget, you said that your mind immediately went to suspecting Pooky for discarding doctor but there was 0 mention of starbuck discarding bg until I brought it up. My concern is that either you or glitch decided to use this as an attack on town!Pooky but left scumbuddy starbuck out of it even though the situation was nearly identical.

I don't think it's close to identical at all. I see a big difference in enjoyment for the user between doctor and bodyguard.

Like, I'm a bodyguard and I have no idea who I want to save. If I save someone, hooray, but I'm out of the game which sucks - also, what if I just took a bullet for scum being shot by other scum? Saving someone as a doc would feel so much more rewarding.
I'll probably guard Ares because I townread her.

[DoubleDare]

What's your favourite role, Starbuck?

Some of DoubleDare's wall of discard assessment sounds like he's joking, and I really can't tell.

No intentional jokes, anyway!

Reya: I was wondering if anyone would notice that

[Hectic]

For instance, my thinking is of a serial killer right now. I have a dayvig and I'm not afraid to use it.

DoubleDare, why shouldn't I dayvig you? You discarded tracker because you wanted scum. What do you mean that Pooky is absolutely right?

[Ydrasse]

admittedly i'm not using the entirety of my brain cells right now but i kind of understand why bodyguard was brushed over as opposed to doctor. i feel in general doctor is a more universal/utilized role and people are more prone to associating THAT with towniness and helpfulness. it's the first thing recognized and thus you're more likely to go ??? over it than bodyguard.

But in the end they're both protective roles and both pro-town. There really isn't a huge difference between the two. I don't find either role fun to be fair but they're still necessary in a game like this.

oh, i know that they’re both good, useful protect roles at the end of the day? my point was more about familiarity leading people to get worked up about one over the other first.

[Ydrasse]

mafia quiver in fear when i am home i shall find you

[Fidget]

3) Bayesian probability doesn't work in the sense that you say oh he is not likely to be dealt 2 town-PRs therefore if he discarded a town-PR he is scum - you have to incorporate the fact that a town-PR was discarded in the first place into your probability calculation. It's not "what is the probability player X got dealt 2 town PRs" it's "what is the probability that player X got dealt 2 town PRs given the fact that he got dealt at LEAST one town PR, which is basically nearly the same probability calculation as Player X getting dealt a Town PR in the first place.

You're right. The probability I was thinking of is this:

Player X is dealt a doctor card, a strong town-aligned power role as their first card.

Let's say that 50% of the cards in the deck are scum, and 40% of the cards are town cards that are worse than doc. Player X was not dealt a town card worse than doc. What are the odds Player X's other card is a town-power role stronger than doc versus being a scum card?

I wasn't thinking "What are the odds a player draws two strong town PRs", cause you're correct, the doctor is already agiven. Is there anything wrong with thinking about it this way? There's probably less than 50% scum cards and more strong town PRs than 10% though

[Fidget]

This is part of what links up with being hypocritical. It was glitch who was being hypocritical as well.

Fidget, you said that your mind immediately went to suspecting Pooky for discarding doctor but there was 0 mention of starbuck discarding bg until I brought it up. My concern is that either you or glitch decided to use this as an attack on town!Pooky but left scumbuddy starbuck out of it even though the situation was nearly identical.

Doctor is better than BG and Pooky was the one getting pushed. Again, you bringing her up had nothing to do with my switch to Star and I feel it's a tad surface level to read it that way.

Especially when someone tries to draw an associative from me to Starbuck because of it. Cmon, that's a terrible stretch!

You got me and glitch backwards. I had strongman and glitch had goon

Whaaat? Oh. I guess I went off of Glitches post rather than the mods. OOPS

[Hectic]

mafia quiver in fear when i am home i shall find you

Only mafia? Does that mean you're a werewolf &_?

But seriously, I think this slip means Ydrasse is town, mafia or 3p, and not werewolf/alien.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I don't think doctor is a "strong" power role in this setup for many of the reasons I've stated in 125 I'd rather not state exactly which town PRs I consider to be "strong" because I'd rather not give scum any more information about my PR. If they are really curious they can always try their luck at night.

Also there are some power roles whose strength comes from their "surprise" factor.

[DoubleDare]

For instance, my thinking is of a serial killer right now. I have a dayvig and I'm not afraid to use it.

DoubleDare, why shouldn't I dayvig you? You discarded tracker because you wanted scum. What do you mean that Pooky is absolutely right?

Pooky was right that my argument about his choice could be applied equally to me!

Why shouldn’t you say it me, hmmmm...because I’m trying to figure things out?

[Fidget]

As for the rolefishing, starting with your 16, you set him up to fail and are completely unfair. You want Pooky to respond in a specific way, but there's not really a way that Pooky could really answer your questions without referencing his current role and I think you set it up that way so you can say "but I told you NOT to do this" to push suspicion. So I can't blame Pooky's skepticism of you in the following post. Then your immediate jump to "OMG ARE U AVOIDING MY QUESTION" and addition of more questions, alongside a vote, just feels as though you wanted to vote him in the first place and didn't really care about his answers. All of this on Page 1. It just feels like nothing he says is going to satisfy you because you already made up your mind.

I can fully well see what you mean. However, I find it way more likely that Glitch was trying to use the discard mechanic to scumhunt, since Pooky had the "worst" discard.

So instead of accusing him of rolefishing (which was the others' grievances), you think he framed the question in order to make Pooky fail on purpose. I'm doubting it

Pooky chose not to be a doctor which unless choosing a stronger town PR, is anti town. Without telling about the role you chose, is there any reason why you decided to ditch the doc? Do you not like playing doc for some reason or another?

I can see why people take issue with this but I just.... dont? I think Pooky's incoming answer to it was probably pretty obvious. Naturally he's not going to say he picked a weaker role, but I lean that Glitch was trying to solve Pooky with this question

This post and the following ones don't scream "Trying to frame Pooky" to me. Dunno!

[Fidget]

My mind immediately went to suspecting Pooky for discarding doctor.

Why? Someone discarding a protective role doesn't automatically mean they chose scum.

No but in my mind someone who discarded a strong town PR would be more likely to be scum than someone who discarded a scum card. Except in the case of NM

VOTE: Starbuck

And you there, bodyguard-discarder-glitch-wagoner. What have you got to say? About my comment. On the glitch wagon. That you're on

I read it. I think you're wrong, making bad assumptions, discrediting good points, and kinda whiteknighty.

Psh! What, me? Having bad takes? Never!

I don't think doctor is a "strong" power role in this setup for many of the reasons I've stated in 125 I'd rather not state exactly which town PRs I consider to be "strong" because I'd rather not give scum any more information about my PR. If they are really curious they can always try their luck at night.

Also there are some power roles whose strength comes from their "surprise" factor.

Yeah there's probably a decent pool of roles that can reasonably be picked ahead of doctor. That's why the discards are starting to seem increasingly unhelpful to me!

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Yeah there's probably a decent pool of roles that can reasonably be picked ahead of doctor. That's why the discards are starting to seem increasingly unhelpful to me!

I think the discards are very useful as a "floor" value for what range the selected role could be in.


If we were to think about scumminess based off discards, I would find people with lower "floor" values more susp than people with higher floor values - however it seems most of the town seems to think otherwise.

[Hectic]

The discards are very useful for one thing. Knowing whether certain people had the option of picking town, and then looking through meta for alignment preference. I get the feeling you prefer town over scum more than you let on, Fidget, but you discarding a scum role means I can't townread you too much for that, since I can't confirm the fact you were offered a town tole.

[Fidget]

Yeah there's probably a decent pool of roles that can reasonably be picked ahead of doctor. That's why the discards are starting to seem increasingly unhelpful to me!

I think the discards are very useful as a "floor" value for what range the selected role could be in.

If we were to think about scumminess based off discards, I would find people with lower "floor" values more susp than people with higher floor values - however it seems most of the town seems to think otherwise.

If a player were offered the #1 town card in the setup and discarded it, that would suggest they chose a scum card, since if they preferred town, they had the best one. (How I approach You/Double's)

If a player were offered the #1 scum card in the setup and discarded it, that would suggest their other card wasn't a scum card, since they'd pick the #1 scum card over it. (How I approach Raya's)

If a player were offered the #50 worst town/scum card in the setup and discarded it, that would suggest they had any other town/scum card that was better, or they opted for the other alignment. I just don't find the floor very helpful thinking of it like this (How I approach Ydrasse's)

[Fidget]

VOTE: GlitchHe's arguing that he's right not that he's town -- which matters in that his scum play style is a lot of notes and based off them deciding what he 'thinks'.

I don't know why'd Glitch would have any reason to argue that he's town during that exchange. This sounds good but really means little.

I think what would make more sense is if Glitch wasn't arguing that Pooky is scum, but instead saying Pooky is wrong. Glitch did both though.

I dont think Glitch would try to do that even as scum. That's a crazy plan! If glitch were scum with Pooky not on his team, he would naturally assume he's a strong PR or another scumteam. No fishing necessary.

"Either A. Thing or B. Something completely different"
I don't get why town!glitch wouldn't also reach the same conclusion you're proposing?

Still don't get what you mean here. You're arguing for Glitch being scum in this post. I'm saying that town or scum Glitch could ask the question. You point out that town Glitch would say it too..?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: NDMath