Mini Theme 2161: Undertale C Open - Chara's Folly

[Isis]

Spare Votecount 1.6

Hectic--------------------------

Elements-----------------------

Chara---------------------------

(2) Chara, catboi

Prism --------------------------

PookyTheMagicalBear -------

(1) PookyTheMagicalBear

catboi--------------------------

(1) Morning Tweet

Morning Tweet----------------

(2) Tayl0r Swift, Hectic

Tayl0r Swift -------------------

Lavender ----------------------

redtea --------------------------

Tanner -------------------------

CantLynchAPuppy-------------

(1) CantLynchAPuppy

Not sparing:

- (5) Prism, Lavender, redtea, Tanner, Elements

Fight Votecount 1.6

Hectic--------------------------

(2) Tayl0r Swift, Prism

Elements-----------------------

(3) CantLynchAPuppy, Chara, Hectic

Chara---------------------------

(1) redtea

Prism --------------------------

PookyTheMagicalBear -------

(1) catboi

catboi--------------------------

Morning Tweet----------------

Tayl0r Swift -------------------

(1) Morning Tweet

Lavender ----------------------

(1) Tanner

redtea --------------------------

Tanner -------------------------

CantLynchAPuppy-------------

Not Fighting:

- (3) PookyTheMagicalBear, Lavender, Elements

"Hmm... I guess it'd be bad if I let you burn up the whole studio?" Nahdia mused. They tilted their head, seeming surprisingly open to that possibility.
"A storm rained on the travelers, which changed their journey!!" Nahdia announced. They snapped, and the sprinklers turned on, letting catboi slip from Hectic's grip as catboi instinctually hid from the water.
The same rain pattered onto Morning Tweet's wings, making the novice flier start to tumble. Hectic saw, and caught her because he saw something moving and wanted to grab it.
"YIP!"
His next instinct was to bury her and keep her forever, so he set her on the ground in his shadow, which was dry since his huge body so effectively blocked the sprinklers. But then he realized he didn't have any paws, so digging would be difficult.

---

With 12 alive and unspared, it takes 7 votes to make a decision.
The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2020-09-13 23:27:24)

[Hectic]

[trimmed of the content I'm not focusing on]

i think Morning is strongly town and we should be SPARING her today

HEAL: Morning Tweet
^^^^^^^^^^^^this is the play, pals

This is really wack to me. At first I thought you forgetting was +town? But the more I think about this the weirder this is.

You haven't made the case for Morning town. You've said that you have a reliable towntell on them that you aren't going to out because it's too valuable. You haven't cited anything else that you would be willing to share.

There's no real attempt to get others to come around to Morning town and jump on this spare. The result is that this feels performative. I really don't like you this game.

I didn't know whether or not people would agree with my proposal in the first place, and trying to convince others Morning is town is something I probably would've done later. At the time, I just felt like getting my mech thoughts out that I'd just thought of.

[Prism]

I might be forced to compromise but until that point this vote is not moving. Terrible responses imo

"legitimately pushing for sparing me" is really tenuous, and "this is the play friends" with arrows highlighting ithe spare vote on Morning, with the mech as the framing leading up to it, suggests that it was more than "idk just getting mech thoughts out there"

Not thinking to either sell others on the townread, and not showing any thought as to how likely a Morning spare was/what other spares might be considered. Giant red flags to me.

Still phone posting for now, I really want to read Morning/Puppy/Tanner when I get to my computer in a few hours

[Morning Tweet]

If Hectic is town he knows i am town 99%

it doesn't surprise me that I'd be his most confident spare

[Prism]

That's great. He also knows you're town 100% of the time as mafia.

I have seen literally zero redeeming play of his in my eyes. This is in stark contrast to the last two games I played with him, where in the first he was a universal townread who played very crisply, and the second was a universal TR who I took specific steps to mislead as scum, and I decided to shoot him since the chance of him getting voted was zero.

Reads are bad. Pushes are bad. Tone is bad. Progression is bad. Like ???

[Morning Tweet]

"Hmm... I guess it'd be bad if I let you burn up the whole studio?" Nahdia mused. They tilted their head, seeming surprisingly open to that possibility.
"A storm rained on the travelers, which changed their journey!!" Nahdia announced. They snapped, and the sprinklers turned on, letting catboi slip from Hectic's grip as catboi instinctually hid from the water.
The same rain pattered onto Morning Tweet's wings, making the novice flier start to tumble. Hectic saw, and caught her because he saw something moving and wanted to grab it.
"YIP!"
His next instinct was to bury her and keep her forever, so he set her on the ground in his shadow, which was dry since his huge body so effectively blocked the sprinklers. But then he realized he didn't have any paws, so digging would be difficult.

thanks but-- please don't bury me alive !! (-ω-)

catboi is my top scumread fwiw. i also dislike hectic for pushing a spare today, after everything else we've talked about re sparing/fighting.

i kinda think it would be hard to forget after fucking 25 pages of this nonsense. but its not a sure thing, so you get a scumpoint but im not voting for you. also heya

This is new! Is it Pooky's scumcase on cat, something to do with the earlier mech talk, or something else entirely that makes you suspect him?

Kinda already touched on this, but Hectic was saying we spare 1 -> fight 3. He forgot the order we'd do it in though (we need to fight before sparing). It's not something as major as forgetting that we aren't doing 4 spares. i myself forgot that Chara doesn't die if there are spared players cause it's just sort of a random detail

[Morning Tweet]

That's great. He also knows you're town 100% of the time as mafia.

I have seen literally zero redeeming play of his in my eyes. This is in stark contrast to the last two games I played with him, where in the first he was a universal townread who played very crisply, and the second was a universal TR who I took specific steps to mislead as scum, and I decided to shoot him since the chance of him getting voted was zero.

Reads are bad. Pushes are bad. Tone is bad. Progression is bad. Like ???

Well sure. I was replying to this:

You haven't made the case for Morning town. You've said that you have a reliable towntell on them that you aren't going to out because it's too valuable. You haven't cited anything else that you would be willing to share.

There's no real attempt to get others to come around to Morning town and jump on this spare. The result is that this feels performative. I really don't like you this game.

I wouldn't hold your breath on a case, it's very secret stuff. But it is accurate. What you're interpreting as performative-- isn't.

i am willing to look more into the "reads are bad, pushes are bad, tone is bad" claim though

[catboi]

I see pooky has changed his tune and started spouting BS when he finally faced real pressure, who could have seen that coming? (me)

Could you expand on this post?

What exactly did I post that you consider to be "BS"?

Mainly the way that moment I start placing you under actual pressure for the first time in the game, you push back, call me scum, attempt to discredit me, attack elements for listing you as chara in 543544 while engaging in absurd reasoning that he must be chara because he listed himself second, something apparently only worth pointing out 400 posts later. Additionally, you claim right there that "If you take the time to think about how a chara would actually be behaving on D1 if the town is heavy against 4-spare, you'd either see less posting, distancing or some kind of weird in between - it would be nearly suicidal stupid to openly buddy a scum goon to the chara." But then, your "super spicy guess" as to who the scumteam is in 521 was me/taylor/elements, two players I have defended to an extent from other players who suspected them. There's no consistency of thought process here and if you were town I'd expect you to be applying the same reasoning to your own reads.

i mean, define productive. imo getting people onto the highest EV path is productive. getting everyone to start talking reads is productive, because i will have a very hard time caring about this game if there's 3 people ~doing nothing~. am i succeeding in what i'm doing? debateable.

you know it probably would've been way easier to get AI-reads on the scum team if we had at least pretended to be down with the 4-spare strategy for a few days to give the incentive for scum to try to get a chara-spare win rather than just being like hell no there's no way we r giving chara a chance to win early.

And then, in this post here you talk about drawing out from people who they want to spare, but it's not like you talked about it in any meaningful way of trying to get those reads from people - you engaged in the whole buddy-buddy good times love in our hearts posting style I've already talked about, avoided trying to rustle anyone, and proposed a silly speech-giving game rather than acting in a way that would get anyone to do anything meaningfully alignment indicative.

For the record, I had considered drawing things out at the start of the game in this fashion, but the moment the discussion turned to strategy of what to do, I had to move to immediately kill it under the weight of my excel spreadsheet and stop the discussion. Prolonged strategic discussions are an incredibly pro-scum environment, because they can contribute and share their honest opinion without doing anything revealing of their alignment. Everything everyone says is essentially null. There is no scumhunting that goes on in a lengthy discussion about strategy, but people can argue for pages and pages while killing any ability to get reads. It went longer in this game than I'd like, even, but I think ultimately I was successful in moving the game past discussions of how to play the setup, to discussions of how the game as constituted by the current playerlist. I think that's undeniably protown.

[catboi]

Deadline closer than I thought, trying to get on track, have a read I've been sitting on that I want to get out. Might do a ~readlist~, something I haven't done in ages. ˚✧₊⁎( ˘ω˘ )⁎⁺˳✧༚

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

, attack elements for listing you as chara in 543544 while engaging in absurd reasoning that he must be chara because he listed himself second, something apparently only worth pointing out 400 posts later.

I put elements as chara b4 he put me as chara so your chain of causality is wrong on the observable facts alone.

[Prism]

My point isn't that he has zero reason to townread you. I'm sure even if he's scum he's got something waiting for that.

My point is that the entire way he approached sparing you was performative, because he wasn't trying to persuade others to come around (and there are probably many not-so-secretive towntells) and he did not seem to give thought to alternative spares

The "this is the play" highlighted by arrows suggests to me that the mech was a framing for the vote to spare you, rather than the vote being an lazy add-on to mechanical thinking that he claims

This is where my performative claim comes from. Zero interest in actually making the spare on you happen, just making his stance on you clear.

Aight, be back later

[Hectic]

Prism: i'll be honest, my eyes have been glossing over while reading parts of this game and i still haven't read some of the earlier walls/chucky posts from players. i've kinda just been out of it. maybe that's because nothing's really gripped me? or because i haven't had any scumreads outside of what feels like low hanging fruit or relatively obvious things to poke at? or it might be a side effect of simply being in too many games and stretching myself far too thin - that's probably the biggest factor. i do think my play will improve over time as i get more into the game, and today and yesterday i have infact been reading everything.

Ele is still my biggest lead, and him elitelling atm has made me feel slightly better about it.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

And then, in this post here you talk about drawing out from people who they want to spare, but it's not like you talked about it in any meaningful way of trying to get those reads from people - you engaged in the whole buddy-buddy good times love in our hearts posting style I've already talked about, avoided trying to rustle anyone, and proposed a silly speech-giving game rather than acting in a way that would get anyone to do anything meaningfully alignment indicative.

I think it's kind of obvious why you wouldn't say you are doing 4-spare for getting associative reads to use in a fight path instead. Also this is more whimsical musing about what could have been.

[Hectic]

My point isn't that he has zero reason to townread you. I'm sure even if he's scum he's got something waiting for that.

My point is that the entire way he approached sparing you was performative, because he wasn't trying to persuade others to come around (and there are probably many not-so-secretive towntells) and he did not seem to give thought to alternative spares

The "this is the play" highlighted by arrows suggests to me that the mech was a framing for the vote to spare you, rather than the vote being an lazy add-on to mechanical thinking that he claims

This is where my performative claim comes from. Zero interest in actually making the spare on you happen, just making his stance on you clear.

Aight, be back later

completely misreading that post then. i actually start that post out accepting 4 FIGHTs is the optimal play, but then change my mind halfway though while thinking a little more about it. it was just my stream of consciousness being jotted down while i wrote the post. not something that was prepared beforehand with the goal of trying to SPARE Morning.

[catboi]

That's great. He also knows you're town 100% of the time as mafia.

I have seen literally zero redeeming play of his in my eyes. This is in stark contrast to the last two games I played with him, where in the first he was a universal townread who played very crisply, and the second was a universal TR who I took specific steps to mislead as scum, and I decided to shoot him since the chance of him getting voted was zero.

Reads are bad. Pushes are bad. Tone is bad. Progression is bad. Like ???

I will admit that every time he outs a reason for townreading someone this game, it makes my skin absolutely crawl. That, without a doubt, is the thing that bothers me the most from him. However, I am not sure he would play in a way that draws attention to himself so strongly by knowingly going against the grain now? He has also done a tell I consider to be slightly town indicative. It's not something I want to get into too deep, though. ( ^..^)ﾉ

[Morning Tweet]

I haven't read a catboi/Pooky post in probably over 2 days. Does anyone have any advice for me on how to read them?

My point isn't that he has zero reason to townread you. I'm sure even if he's scum he's got something waiting for that.

My point is that the entire way he approached sparing you was performative, because he wasn't trying to persuade others to come around (and there are probably many not-so-secretive towntells) and he did not seem to give thought to alternative spares

The "this is the play" highlighted by arrows suggests to me that the mech was a framing for the vote to spare you, rather than the vote being an lazy add-on to mechanical thinking that he claims

This is where my performative claim comes from. Zero interest in actually making the spare on you happen, just making his stance on you clear.

Aight, be back later

I know. My point is that there is no case to be made, I don't.. really think he can persuade other people without actually explaining the tell.

I think you make a fair point that he probably wasn't going to make the spare on me happen (Even if the mech allowed us to spare rn). However, on the other hand, if he is town, he does know that I am town now. But.. why point it out then I suppose?

So why'd you point out your towntell for me so early, Hectic? Did you think people would follow you on it (back when you misunderstood the mech)? Most of this playerlist isn't familar with this tell thing, I don't think.

Pedit: well hectic is sort of already responding but yeah ima still post this

[catboi]

, attack elements for listing you as chara in 543544 while engaging in absurd reasoning that he must be chara because he listed himself second, something apparently only worth pointing out 400 posts later.

I put elements as chara b4 he put me as chara so your chain of causality is wrong on the observable facts alone.

My error, that's what I get for reading backwards, I got my timeline confused - Regardless, that is less important than the part where you critique elements's team guess while failing to apply that reasoning to your own reads.

[CantHateAPuppy]

i would be willing to settle on hectic but is there a reason people have stopped looking at elements? the good reasons for that wagon haven't disappeared

[Hectic]

@Morning:



explaining how accurate it's been, but i suppose it wouldn't be that easy, would it
you're absolutely right though that to towncase you i'd basically be making up reasons to think you're town in order to convince other people of it
the towntell isn't something i want to reveal so it'd just be that way

[Morning Tweet]

I wish you had waited until tomorrow to make that post

[CantHateAPuppy]

And then, in this post here you talk about drawing out from people who they want to spare, but it's not like you talked about it in any meaningful way of trying to get those reads from people - you engaged in the whole buddy-buddy good times love in our hearts posting style I've already talked about, avoided trying to rustle anyone, and proposed a silly speech-giving game rather than acting in a way that would get anyone to do anything meaningfully alignment indicative.

I think it's kind of obvious why you wouldn't say you are doing 4-spare for getting associative reads to use in a fight path instead. Also this is more whimsical musing about what could have been.

ok, so was that spare talk all a gambit? what reads did you get from it?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I think that's undeniably protown.

ok you posted a spreadsheet and said we should do this fight thing.

But have you really put much actual effort into sorting my alignment this game? Your vote is on me but what have you done to determine my alignment and how have you done it?

[Hectic]

I wish you had waited until tomorrow to make that post

[catboi]

I dunno

he hasn't done enough yet for me to use my soul read yet.

I'm worried he might be avoiding me :>

How is it that he was "avoiding" you when he placed a hurt vote on you and directly questioned you on if you had any reads? (;￢＿￢)

[catboi]

I think that's undeniably protown.

ok you posted a spreadsheet and said we should do this fight thing.

But have you really put much actual effort into sorting my alignment this game? Your vote is on me but what have you done to determine my alignment and how have you done it?

If I put a vote on someone I am saying "This person is suspicious" and drawing attention to them. If I was a bit vague with my initial posts, I don't think it was hard to infer why I felt you were suspect. My vote also got you to stop fucking around and produce actual content, so in that regard I'd consider it a rousing success.