Mini Normal 2170: Stuff I’m Listening To [Game Over]

[duppin]

Sorry.

Had to take one of my cats into the vet for emergency surgery yesterday morning, probably going to be ok but I spent yesterday being a mess. Trying to get my head straightened out and not be a waste of a slot. Going to be trying to reread and provide some actual content in the next 12 hours once I’ve gotten things settled at work for the day. If anyone wants my opinion on anything in particular let me know and I’ll make sure to get to it on top of whatever I find to comment on in more general terms.

i am sorry to hear that and i hope everything is okay

as for questions id like to know if anything has changed regarding your noora read?

[duppin]

I feel like chicken katsu and bitzio have been discussed ad nauseum at this point and i agree with most of what was said.

Idk know if noraa is scum or if this masatina-style "I AM THE PROTAGONIST OF THIS ANIME" playstyle is just pinging me because i hate it.

I just think it's unlikely that all 3 of these people are scum. I think katsu has the highest likelihood of being town of the 3 mostly because sometimes you're just dumb and loud and can't help it.

~~~~

A lot of there was a solid set of post somewhere in the single digits where Outworld/Duppin/ murdercat were being very weird with each other and like doing this weird buddying dance. It also doesn;t help that i find outworld and murdercat independently scummy. I think this is a case of like..2 scum trying to get someone to play 3rd imposter.

okay so your reads actually werent actually based on much as associations as i initially thought, but i am still curious about your latter statement. Are you suggesting that 2 scum would be trying to pocket the same player early on? Id also really appreciate if you could actually elaborate a bit more on this because I am just unsure as to why you even believe this is the case

[duppin]

actually bulges thoughts seem to align with my own so I feel pretty good about him at the moment

[Thestatusquo]

I'm used to getting townread. I was pretty heavily townread in my last game too (white flag) where I was scum.

What's interesting to me is not the town reads themselves but I feel like theres buddying going on, especially with gamma and bulge and to a lesser extent murdercat.

This post in particular still reads sort of bizarre to me and I don't like his explanation either.

I'm not pressing you, just trying to develop my kasu read

[duppin]

I'm used to getting townread. I was pretty heavily townread in my last game too (white flag) where I was scum.

What's interesting to me is not the town reads themselves but I feel like theres buddying going on, especially with gamma and bulge and to a lesser extent murdercat.

indeed that was kind of what i was getting at. I personally don't think you have been that town as in I don't think you have really done anything outside of your scumrange and I actually kind of agree with what kasu were talking about earlier in the sense that it felt like you put out a lot of questions that didn't really lead anywhere. That's not really scummy in itself, my point is more so that I was curious as to why so many players thought you were town and the fact that you almost seem to be universally townread to me does actually make me lean more towards you being town, but the reads themselves are still a bit odd to me. I was actually speculating whether some players were simply townreading you due to being excited to play with you again

[duppin]

i keep going back to Gamma's townread on you, I think it's suspicious in itself but his honesty regarding it seems rather genuine as well so I am a bit torn

[MURDERCAT]

I feel like theres buddying going on, especially with gamma and bulge and to a lesser extent murdercat.

That feel when you aren't Shea's full buddy

[MURDERCAT]

I was actually speculating whether some players were simply townreading you due to being excited to play with you again

I personally don't think this is the case for me, I genuinely an town reading him

[duppin]

actually i just isoed shea and his iso does look better than i thought

[duppin]

i think my read on him might have been affected by him calling me out yet not pushing me, in fact it felt to me like he was trying to avoid getting in a discussion and being non confrontational. As in it felt like he was just asking relatively simple questions but not really trying to follow up on them, but after reading his iso i see thats not totally fair

[Thestatusquo]

i think my read on him might have been affected by him calling me out yet not pushing me, in fact it felt to me like he was trying to avoid getting in a discussion and being non confrontational. As in it felt like he was just asking relatively simple questions but not really trying to follow up on them, but after reading his iso i see thats not totally fair

I was trying to get you to play the game.

[MURDERCAT]

i think my read on him might have been affected by him calling me out yet not pushing me, in fact it felt to me like he was trying to avoid getting in a discussion and being non confrontational. As in it felt like he was just asking relatively simple questions but not really trying to follow up on them, but after reading his iso i see thats not totally fair

Do you think that leans scum for Shea? Based on the couple of games that I read that did not seem to be scum Shea's playstyle. (Generic statement about those games being old.)

[duppin]

i think my read on him might have been affected by him calling me out yet not pushing me, in fact it felt to me like he was trying to avoid getting in a discussion and being non confrontational. As in it felt like he was just asking relatively simple questions but not really trying to follow up on them, but after reading his iso i see thats not totally fair

Do you think that leans scum for Shea? Based on the couple of games that I read that did not seem to be scum Shea's playstyle. (Generic statement about those games being old.)

could be but not necessarily. My thinking was more so that I dont think Shea's play was that town - he was appearing as active and asked a lot of questions but my impresion was that he wasn't really going anywhere with it eg not pushing it which is why I thought it was weird for people to townread him, not because he was necessarily scummy but more so that i expect town would read him more carefully than scum would. I think scum are more likely to throw a townread on someone appearing to be active/trying to control so i still thought the universal townreads on him made him more likely to be town which was why i was mainly concerned about the townreads on him.

but after giving his iso a proper read i actually can kind of understand why people think his play has been town

[Noraa]

I feel like chicken katsu and bitzio have been discussed ad nauseum at this point and i agree with most of what was said.

Idk know if noraa is scum or if this masatina-style "I AM THE PROTAGONIST OF THIS ANIME" playstyle is just pinging me because i hate it.

I just think it's unlikely that all 3 of these people are scum. I think katsu has the highest likelihood of being town of the 3 mostly because sometimes you're just dumb and loud and can't help it.

~~~~

A lot of there was a solid set of post somewhere in the single digits where Outworld/Duppin/ murdercat were being very weird with each other and like doing this weird buddying dance. It also doesn;t help that i find outworld and murdercat independently scummy. I think this is a case of like..2 scum trying to get someone to play 3rd imposter.

~~~

everyone else is probably town.

My play style's annoying regardless of alignment if that's what ur wondering. Besides that, I basically agree with the content of this post. I've had a TR on kazu for a while now and a SR on Murder and maybe a slight SR on outworld lately.

which two posts do you feel are the most AI for you?

not sure but definitely not two random ones that ping me as nothing.

Trying to place Noraa's slot is a bitch considering all the fluff going on in this ISO. 242 gives me really bad scum pings I didn't pick up before and it reads as very deflective. I have no idea what to make of that conversation about opportunism considering I don't even really understand what people are saying there. 465 rings to me as a good post with a genuinely good point.

IDK, I'd go slight scumlean with a trend towards null on that slot right now.

I kinda love how the two posts u point out are both literally such random posts that aren't even any of the ones I considered scummy or townie. Like I had some posts that I, myself knew where sorta townie or sorta scummy. But u literally point out two of the most useless and random posts. Idk I just dont get why you cherry picked those two that mean absolutely nothing imo.

this post annoys me severely

242: You point out that Murdercat also didn't have much substance to his reads, which is fair tbh, but also means you are completely deflecting what is a very fair point. Pot calling the kettle black, essentially, and deflection is a very scummy tactic.

465: you did actually have a good point about Blitzo deflecting attention to kasu in his post and dismissing any pressure against him once again, which was kinda yikes and I'm surprised nobody pressed on that harder.

I pointed out these two posts because they were the ones I was able to read into at the time. I didn't really get pinged by any of other posts, so I either missed something or just didn't fine anything noteworthy about them that I hadn't already said.

I dont think scums need to "read into" anything so I could definitely see you just pointing out some random posts on me. And its stupid that ur being so fence sitty with one post of mine that "so so scummy" and another that's "so so town" and then the result is a SR? lel okay then. Im sorry but I just dont vibe with your reads and stuff. I feel like u put close to zero effort in and cling to people and tunnel. You haven't full on tunneled, no. But I think ur attention is not evenly distributed among all the players.

Ugh my power just cut out so I'm phone posting for the time being. I like noraa. I agree with most of her reads and her tone is whimsical and steam of consciousnessy. It's fakeable but strikes me as legit, especially if she's new. She's actually engaging with Mc and even if I'm starting to disagree with her on the sr there it seems like she's actually trying to solve.

Noraa, what do you think of gamma right now?

If you think you can convince me gamma is scum, then do it. Otherwise I will not be SRing there bc all I see is normal gamma play.

[PJ.]

My play style's annoying regardless of alignment if that's what ur wondering.

Didn't have to wonder, it was abundantly clear that you are annoying.

And also, probably scum.

[UneducatedGuesser]

OK, a few thoughts that I fell asleep halfway through last night.

First up UNVOTE: I don't think I want to vote for Kasu right now.

- At this point, I'm basically looking for ways to TR people and POE things down some right now, on account of not feeling all that good about my reads and concentration levels. I figure I've got roughly half the game on a mental "I would not subscribe to a D1 yeet" list and I'm trying to narrow it down further, so that's kind of how my brain's working.

- Pooky's bothering me, I don't know the exact reason why but it's a thing. This is one of those gut-reads, which occasionally is just me being dumb, but also occasionally means that my lizard brain hates something that the rest of my brain can't articulate yet, so I'm going to stop short of a vote rn, but something feels not right.

- Shea, I don't want to stink up the thread with this and it's more OOG, but remind me later if we're dead-threading together or in postgame to ask you about your theory on policy/liability elims, because I think we probably disagree on this point but it's the type of theoretical thing I like to talk about. However, on a more in game note, I'm curious about your relationship-based reads that you've brought up a few times re: Blitzo/MC/Kasu/Bulge. If you think there's an informative flip in that group as you said in 479 is that where you're most strongly leaning in this phase as it stands and have you considered whether or not you have a preference in that group? Because a couple of those people are on my "no D1 yeet" list right now and I don't think I'm seeing what you're seeing there in its totality.

- I don't know if I'm a fan of Gamma's ro3 logic, but in the spirit of trying to see where things like this are coming from I ask Gamma: based on your ro3, you'd have Panzer as scum and then 1 each from his two groups... so which ones in each of those groups make the most sense to you at this point and why?

- To answer Duppin...

Sorry.

Had to take one of my cats into the vet for emergency surgery yesterday morning, probably going to be ok but I spent yesterday being a mess. Trying to get my head straightened out and not be a waste of a slot. Going to be trying to reread and provide some actual content in the next 12 hours once I’ve gotten things settled at work for the day. If anyone wants my opinion on anything in particular let me know and I’ll make sure to get to it on top of whatever I find to comment on in more general terms.

i am sorry to hear that and i hope everything is okay

as for questions id like to know if anything has changed regarding your noora read?

In Noraa's case... I played one other game with her, we were both town. She was universally town-read and was basically face-up as a TPR to me. She almost talked me out of thinking that about six different times even though I was about 99.9% sure I knew better. I have no clue how I read her at this point and if she would have been this defensive and OMGUS-driven in that game had she been pushed, because it never came up when I was on the inside of the game. I know she HAS been that way as scum, but honestly... this just feels like how she plays and what she does and what might be AI for 90% of the population isn't necessarily going to be AI for her. She isn't on my previously mentioned "no yeet" list, and there's enough things going on there that I've seen her do while scum-aligned that I doubt she'll make it onto said list as it stands, though I also doubt she'll end up top of my SRs either.

[Noraa]

My play style's annoying regardless of alignment if that's what ur wondering.

Didn't have to wonder, it was abundantly clear that you are annoying.

And also, probably scum.

If you truly believe in that, you are way overly confident. We are day 1 and you claim you've found scum, one of which is me. If you believe in that, I'll be very surprised.

[Thestatusquo]

- Shea, I don't want to stink up the thread with this and it's more OOG, but remind me later if we're dead-threading together or in postgame to ask you about your theory on policy/liability elims, because I think we probably disagree on this point but it's the type of theoretical thing I like to talk about. However, on a more in game note, I'm curious about your relationship-based reads that you've brought up a few times re: Blitzo/MC/Kasu/Bulge. If you think there's an informative flip in that group as you said in 479 is that where you're most strongly leaning in this phase as it stands and have you considered whether or not you have a preference in that group? Because a couple of those people are on my "no D1 yeet" list right now and I don't think I'm seeing what you're seeing there in its totality.

I'm having a hard time fully expressing it but it has to do with Bulge voting kasumeat at a time when doing so seems to take significant steam out of the blitzo wagon for reasons that don't read as particularly strong or well fleshed out to me. It doesn't really square with the rest of the bulges play which has been very careful and non-confrontational for the most part. Basically my thought was something along the lines of "why are we voting here and for this." It's his only non-random vote in the game and its just pretty incongruous with the rest of his play, to the point that it feels kind of glaring to me. Why was this enough to vote on when so many things were not?

That's the part of it I have the most fleshed out in my head, and the part that feels the most concrete to me. I think if I were forced to choose right now who to yeet it would be the bulge > Blitzo > MC.

That's mainly because I think there's other things that make me want to yeet bulge besides the relational stuff, theres also the fact that I feel like their interactions with me have been downright weird and the sum totality of his play has basically been pointing out slight logical inconsistencies which looks a lot like busy work to me.

Weird interactions with me:

This last page and a half of gamma reads really earnest to me.

I agree, but be careful not to lean too hard into his flattery

What is the point of this post?

I'm not pressing you, just trying to develop my kasu read

When have I ever once stopped to reassure the person I was talking to that I wasn't pushing them? What is the town motivation to this?

The explanation doesn't make any sense to me either.

I'm not pressing you, just trying to develop my kasu read

Honestly I don't like this post at all.

What in my post made you think that you needed to reassure me that you weren't pressing me? Why would you do that even if you thought I wanted it?

looking back I read the last line of your 472 too fast and thought you were implying I was trying to trap you into answering a certain way

Like what? The last line he is referring to is "Honestly I really don't understand this whole line of questioning. It seems like in order to respond to me saying "it could be faked I just don't think it is" with "But don't you think it COULD be fake!?" kind of requires willfulness. Yes, it could be fake. I don't think it is because to me it feels genuine."

I dont see how that could be what he's suggesting he misread it as, and EVEN IF THATS TRUE--The meat of my argument is there really isn't town motivation to jump to reassure someone you're not pushing them. Why would you? I've certainly never done it as town.

The rest of his ISO besides this and the Kasu attacks are just pointing out minor logical inconsistencies and mildly rebuking people in a "not trying to find scum" sort of way.

Some examples:

{Thestatusquo}
{Panzerjager, PookyTheMagicalBear, The Bulge}
{Not_Mafia, Noraa, Kasumeat, duppin, OutWorldER, UneducatedGuesser}
{Gamma Emerald}
{Blitzo}

pedit: Was just about to post this for content but ok

what's the rush to get a list like this out?

kasumeat the archaeologist

I meant for the claim thing. Didnt even read the whole sentence rip.
All I saw was "Pooky is ascetic peacemaker Noraa so role fishing is allowed now"

i know noraa gets paranoid but hmmmm

I can't read Shea aorn. His play style is one of those that I generally struggle to read just like Pooky and Not mafia. These take me a lot of time to get opinions on but I guarantee I'll probably be having at least leans before day 1 ends unless we end up with a flash wagon which I don't recommend.

shea's posting style isn't even a little bit like pooky or n_m, and I get you're saying he's null and hard to read, but you have other null reads that I feel would be a much better comparison here. so your comparison to two players who have a fairly established deliberately cloudy playstyle is reading to me like an excuse to not have to try and get a read on him. thoughts?

Iso is riddled with stuff like this and I think I've just talked myself into a VOTE: The Bulge

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Honestly? I was expecting you to post something else or to come up with more.
Two reads in a game of 13 people, one of which appearing incredibly unfounded, is unimpressive. TSQ's assessment of your read on me is correct, in addition to that read being backed with little to begin with (RE: I've been asking about kasu repeatedly in yet that has gone completely unnoticed by you somehow.)

I just want to have a conversation with you that's all. Pick your brain see where you are at.

What's the most damning thing Kasu's done so far that makes you want to eject him ?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

- Pooky's bothering me, I don't know the exact reason why but it's a thing. This is one of those gut-reads, which occasionally is just me being dumb, but also occasionally means that my lizard brain hates something that the rest of my brain can't articulate yet, so I'm going to stop short of a vote rn, but something feels not right.

I bother myself sometimes too if it's any consolation

[OutWorldER]

Trying to place Noraa's slot is a bitch considering all the fluff going on in this ISO. 242 gives me really bad scum pings I didn't pick up before and it reads as very deflective. I have no idea what to make of that conversation about opportunism considering I don't even really understand what people are saying there. 465 rings to me as a good post with a genuinely good point.

IDK, I'd go slight scumlean with a trend towards null on that slot right now.

I kinda love how the two posts u point out are both literally such random posts that aren't even any of the ones I considered scummy or townie. Like I had some posts that I, myself knew where sorta townie or sorta scummy. But u literally point out two of the most useless and random posts. Idk I just dont get why you cherry picked those two that mean absolutely nothing imo.

this post annoys me severely

242: You point out that Murdercat also didn't have much substance to his reads, which is fair tbh, but also means you are completely deflecting what is a very fair point. Pot calling the kettle black, essentially, and deflection is a very scummy tactic.

465: you did actually have a good point about Blitzo deflecting attention to kasu in his post and dismissing any pressure against him once again, which was kinda yikes and I'm surprised nobody pressed on that harder.

I pointed out these two posts because they were the ones I was able to read into at the time. I didn't really get pinged by any of other posts, so I either missed something or just didn't fine anything noteworthy about them that I hadn't already said.

I dont think scums need to "read into" anything so I could definitely see you just pointing out some random posts on me. And its stupid that ur being so fence sitty with one post of mine that "so so scummy" and another that's "so so town" and then the result is a SR? lel okay then. Im sorry but I just dont vibe with your reads and stuff. I feel like u put close to zero effort in and cling to people and tunnel. You haven't full on tunneled, no. But I think ur attention is not evenly distributed among all the players.

I legitimately do not know how to explain to you that you are not the decider of who finds what in your ISO towny or scummy. You can attack the reasoning but just saying "wow this is dumb I thought that post that I, myself, made was really random you should've pointed to [X] instead" is incredibly dis-earnest and just...I don't even know if I can describe it as logic.

I gave you my reasoning as to why those posts pinged me the way they did. Attack the reasoning behind it if you think it's bad reasoning/reading.

As for being fence sitty, I do admit that I was unclear in how that resulted in a scumlean. Your deflective tactics in 242 struck gave me a stronger scum ping than the town pings I got elsewhere.

And yes, my attention isn't evenly distributed. That's just sort of the nature of Mafia? I only have so much brain power and certain posts/players simply catch my attention more often. Who would you rather have me focus on? Who do you think I've not focused on enough?

[OutWorldER]

Shea's push onto Bulge is interesting. I'm not sure if I'm entirely behind the logic there but I think it is a town-motivated push. I'm having trouble expressing exactly why I feel this way, however. I'll come back to it when I feel I can (and it will also give some time for this interaction to develop)

I think I'm keeping my vote parked on Gamma rn. I still really don't like anything I've seen in his ISO. Speaking of...

[quote="In post 487Gamma, can you elaborate on this vote and your current feelings of MC? Could you also tell me your current thoughts on Shea, myself (again), and Outworld?

You did explain yourself re: myself. How about Shea and Outworld?

I’m TRing both Shea and Outworld rn

I'd like you to elaborate more on these reads.

[Thestatusquo]

What in the logic do you think is faulty?

[OutWorldER]

I think it's this part I have the most problem with.

It doesn't really square with the rest of the bulges play which has been very careful and non-confrontational for the most part.

Maybe we just have a different definition of the word "confrontational but it doesn't really ring true to me considering that he does seem to engage with people quite a lot, including yourself. I could kinda see how you think it considering he doesn't really actively accuse people, but posts like 115, 176, 318, 319 look as genuinely engaging his scumreads, and I think it lines up with his vote onto Kasu later on.

[Thestatusquo]

I meant it that he doesn't seem to be too interested in picking fights or voting. He seems interested in prodding at things but I would describe his engagement as mostly at the surface level.