Mini Normal 2160 | FIA Group B | Endgame

[lilith2013]

Can you point to one time in this game where you pushed duck, questioned him on his actions and/or reads, or tried to garner votes on him to build a wagon?

I immediately remembered an instance:

Wait, Froppy is the waterD/Sirius -slot?
Who's the leading advocate for that lynch this day and time?

Ducky came in voting it.

OK.
VOTE: the worst - time to solve this shit today instead of me resorting to paranoia every now and then.

bro you're meant to be voting scum or pretending to vote scum stopppp

This was me asking who was advocating to lynching that slot at that time (think it was D3).
My "Miss Marple"-logic suggests that in games that have a "policy-lynchable" slot like Sirius/Froppy/WaterD/whoever, it's often scum who keep coming back to the honey pot, but don't actually want the lynch to necessarily ever go all the way through.
I really, really wanted it D1, but people insisted on sidetracking it and we know the results of it.
The whole trajectory of this game was formed by those claims from MWNN and Nep as early as D1.

And after losing a buddy D2, I felt like scum would likely start D3 with an easy push on the Sirius-slot, before actually moving somewhere else.

ok - how is this vote related to your gut scumread on duck?

[UnaBombaH]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[lilith2013]

oh yeah my memory actually served me well there.

you've just now said that your reasoning for voting duck at that time was that he was on the "easy" wagon, but then you literally never mentioned that wagon to him again to ask why he was on it. you said you voted him in order to solve him, but I didn't see any evidence of you trying to do that.

[UnaBombaH]

lilith - when I say "it's a smart pickup" I'm giving credit to Billys thought process.
There was no need for him to come up with that, or to put himself out there when S_S was obviously spearheading that lynch on a guilty (or once again, a faked one but very very unlikely).

The following lines are not me shading or "pushing for scum!S_S".
I'm just stating that while that thought process is reasonable, I do not think it's applicable to S_S there.

I can't put that into any more blatantly than that, and if you don't think that's true, fine.
If you don't understand me, fine.
But just know that regardless of alignment, I would've always said that same thing and it had absolutely ZERO% of shade towards S_S intended.

[UnaBombaH]

oh yeah my memory actually served me well there.

you've just now said that your reasoning for voting duck at that time was that he was on the "easy" wagon, but then you literally never mentioned that wagon to him again to ask why he was on it. you said you voted him in order to solve him, but I didn't see any evidence of you trying to do that.

Well did you just look at his reaction to my vote?
"no, I'm not scum, stop"
Instead of engaging me in a discussion about it.

[lilith2013]

okay. here are your posts related to duck following that vote:

hmm I have an interesting take on una but maybe it's better to talk about it after our dialogue idk

I actually think you should out this "take".
It's the kind of stuff I want to see from you.
I'm not asking you to "tryhard" if you don't feel like doing it - I'm in no position to demand that from anyone.
But I feel like my biggest obstacle with you here is the lack of commitment to an unpopular/new read. Something that might be hotly contested, or might involve some personal insight.

I feel like I saw glimpses of town!duck during my catchup, but at the same time I feel like you are actively forcing yourself to stay on surface-level.
This reads to me like you are trying to stay alive and not be a nightkill, which obviously could mean a multitude of things.
I'm trying to decide whether you just want to keep playing, or if you are actually scum this time around.

secretly i kinda think una's n2 is kinda scum indicative but i think i'll just be able to sort him via dayplay

And what the hell is this about?
If you want to scumread me, do it based on me not committing to the Nep-wagon D1 - not based on my N2 actions.

In all perfect honesty - you didn't think S_S was a very reasonable and a likely target for scum to kill?

If I were to think at least one of you/S_S was town, I might have something like 2630 ways to explain myself discreetly enough to either of you.
But now that I finally understood why Nep absolutely HAD TO die from scum!PoV, I feel like the scumteam could be anywhere, and have "anything".

hmm I have an interesting take on una but maybe it's better to talk about it after our dialogue idk

I actually think you should out this "take".
It's the kind of stuff I want to see from you.
I'm not asking you to "tryhard" if you don't feel like doing it - I'm in no position to demand that from anyone.
But I feel like my biggest obstacle with you here is the lack of commitment to an unpopular/new read. Something that might be hotly contested, or might involve some personal insight.

I feel like I saw glimpses of town!duck during my catchup, but at the same time I feel like you are actively forcing yourself to stay on surface-level.
This reads to me like you are trying to stay alive and not be a nightkill, which obviously could mean a multitude of things.
I'm trying to decide whether you just want to keep playing, or if you are actually scum this time around.

Take a stance on me Ducky, take a dance with me Ducky.
Be my aussie Steve Rogers, I'll be your finnish Bucky.

I think the fact you apparently crumbed that you weren't going to protect Nep is like... literally mind-bogglingly negligent

Literally didn't do this.
Read what I've just said and you might understand what I mean.
We need to be speaking the same language here.

Then you are probably just scum and my vote is in the right place.

If BuDucky is indeed scum, then FourEyes+N_M are both town.
I don't think scum!Ducky would need to point any sus. in that direction if FourEyes was their teammate.

he dropped a nonsensical theory on someone who is increasingly obvtown (hi it's me) and then left

There isn't much truth at all within this span of words.
At least not from a neutral standpoint and PoV.
I went nowhere, and you becoming "increasingly obv.town" is just something you say to try and suggest it around.

I feel like your position should be pushed and questioned now because otherwise you'll just slide to the endgame and we'll be none the wiser.

I honestly missed everything and anything tangible you might've said there.
If Ducky is scum, it's mandatory we massclaim today.
But I do think Froppy has to be the lynch today no matter what, simply because that's a slot which is not going anywhere, and not doing anything anyway.
And the way that this might come to a halt just like it did D1, makes me think there's something to it as well.

BuDucky just can't see beyond my scumread on him.
He has Lilith so deep in a pocket, that he feels comfortable enough to just vaguely skirt around my slot.
If Ducky really wanted, he'd understand my frustration as well.
That vote on me is merely symbolic - he knows I'll be mislynchable from this point onwards.
And yea, my own crumbs likely lead to this, so maybe it's going to be me getting my just desserts.

I'm calling it now - Froppy is town, I'll be mislynched tomorrow because of consequences, and the remaining scumteam is BuDucky-IV.

these feel passive. It doesn't come across to me that you're actually worried about duck being scum or that you are attempting to solve him. You go straight from "engage with me" to "let's take scum!duck as a given" without showing any development on how you became so certain.

[UnaBombaH]

For example on how the day continued:

Are you townreading froppy?

No, but I feel like Duck needs to activate before I'm gone.

Lead to

oh no. you seem to have me confused with 2018 duck. i'm not as performative anymore, i go as hard as i want when i want.

This is Ducky clearly stating that he doesn't feel like putting in effort..no?
Well, he certainly did put in effort today, so I guess he just didn't want to do it earlier.

[lilith2013]

oh yeah my memory actually served me well there.

you've just now said that your reasoning for voting duck at that time was that he was on the "easy" wagon, but then you literally never mentioned that wagon to him again to ask why he was on it. you said you voted him in order to solve him, but I didn't see any evidence of you trying to do that.

Well did you just look at his reaction to my vote?
"no, I'm not scum, stop"
Instead of engaging me in a discussion about it.

so? he has never said that he attempted to solve you there. however, you are arguing that you attempted to solve him there.

[lilith2013]

what does his reaction have anything to do with whether or not you pushed him?

[lilith2013]

this is what I feel like your entire D5 has been like. I ask you to show yourself engaging with your scumread on duck, and your response is to be like "but duck wasn't engaging there!" okay, and???? that wasn't the question I asked.

[UnaBombaH]

these feel passive. It doesn't come across to me that you're actually worried about duck being scum or that you are attempting to solve him. You go straight from "engage with me" to "let's take scum!duck as a given" without showing any development on how you became so certain.

Well here you have to, again, actually read what I wrote instead of what he pointed out about it.
I called his non-committal style scum, and tried to provoke him into an actual dialogue.
He kept dodging it, and then voted for me because he didn't see another way out of the situation.
One of the reasons why my push towards him was stalled and killed was you actually - if you go see your own posts in between mine and his, you are calling him town at almost every possible turn.
It didn't feel like it was reasonable at all to think I'd get Ducky lynched then and there, so I decided to bide my time with that read and solve as well.
Had I been killed overnight as I kept hoping, maybe someone would've understood that Ducky was scum and my call-out was correct.
Obviously resulting in one of the reasons for me being kept alive until LyLo.

[UnaBombaH]

what does his reaction have anything to do with whether or not you pushed him?

What?
I tried to engage in a discussion with him to help with the whole solve of the game.
He kept dodging me because he knew that providing content towards me/with me was the biggest risk of slipping and actually getting caught.
So he avoided that.

[lilith2013]

I literally read just your ISO. stop trying to discredit me by calling me a parrot.

[UnaBombaH]

this is what I feel like your entire D5 has been like.

I ask you to show yourself engaging with your scumread on duck

, and your response is to be like "but duck wasn't engaging there!" okay, and????

that wasn't the question I asked.

You are so far gone at this point...
You asked for a point in time that I was pushing for him - ^^ this is that time.
You then disagree with me (??) on the fact that I was...pushing him?
I WAS THE ONLY ONE WILLING TO EVEN VOTE FOR HIM THERE.

[lilith2013]

a vanity wagon that went nowhere, that you dropped because.. because I said I townread him? even though you were so sure he was scum? and you were blatantly saying that he had pocketed me?

[lilith2013]

wow didn't believe I was going to get so steamed about this game again but here I am fuming because all una can say is that I'm stupid and can't think for myself

[UnaBombaH]

I'm so conflicted Lilith. Part of me wants to omgus vote una because his push on me is transparently phayke. The other part of me just wants to vote Froppy because we're already pressuring her so well. Why am I not a doublevoter this game??

This is Ducky posturing a fence-sit when I've been voting for him a while now.
And instead of engaging with me in a 1v1 discussion, he dodges me at every turn, and then turns to lilith for "support" and cover.
But then you pose an actual question to him:

can you summarize general reasons for scum!froppy for me?

pass

???
And yet this is not scummy "based on dayplay", but my push on Ducky was non-committal and apparently now a "vanity wagon" as well?
Seems about right.

[lilith2013]

Oh I’m not even voting froppy right now lmao

Intent to hammer yourself? Without a claim? Without a massclaim?

summary of my case against froppy: this is a towntelling list and I unambiguously do not townread froppy at all. Sirius was dead ass null but I was happy to let him live a phase or two. Waterd's self towncase was dull and easy to fake as scum, but I was happy to give him the benefit of the doubt. Froppy's iso is dull but I was happy to give her the benefit of the doubt.

Does she do anything towny or any semblance of solving?
No

Does she make posts with content which are very easy to make as scum but with better utility as manipulative arguments than actual solving arguments?
Yea!

So if it lounges like scum and frops like scum I have no idea what the hell its alignment is but I'm murdering it before endgame

Froppy is scum with Una but I do in a vacuum think una is playing this phase in worse faith. I kinda hinted at this earlier but w/e they can be scum together

and he posted this a day later. what's your point?

[lilith2013]

a page later*

[lilith2013]

I honestly missed everything and anything tangible you might've said there.
If Ducky is scum, it's mandatory we massclaim today.
But I do think Froppy has to be the lynch today no matter what, simply because that's a slot which is not going anywhere, and not doing anything anyway.
And the way that this might come to a halt just like it did D1, makes me think there's something to it as well.

oh and let's not forget your reaction to his "fencesitting" - immediately retracting your push.

[UnaBombaH]

I didn't retract my push there!
AGAIN, you are defaulting to conf.bias and stopping there when it fits your current read on me.
I'm already putting together the quotes that followed.

[lilith2013]

you're acting like me changing my mind and townreading duck magically prevents you from being able to push him on your own or engage with him or solve him. also I just reread those pages and I didn't say he was town at any point between your vote on him and you calling him scum, so I'm not even sure what I did that "killed" your push.

[UnaBombaH]

BuDucky just can't see beyond my scumread on him.
He has Lilith so deep in a pocket, that he feels comfortable enough to just vaguely skirt around my slot.
If Ducky really wanted, he'd understand my frustration as well.
That vote on me is merely symbolic - he knows I'll be mislynchable from this point onwards.
And yea, my own crumbs likely lead to this, so maybe it's going to be me getting my just desserts.

I'm calling it now - Froppy is town, I'll be mislynched tomorrow because of consequences, and the remaining scumteam is BuDucky-IV.

This was the moment that I felt certain with scum!Ducky, so if you are actually asking for the moment where my gutread transitioned into an actual reasoned scumread on him, I guess this is the moment.
His unwillingness to commit into a dialogue with me, him constantly "looking at lilith for help and support" are both clear scumtells for BuDucky.
The one thing that was still puzzling me was their partner though, and this is also the point where Froppy started to look like a reasonable partner-candidate.
Would've also explained why Ducky unvoted so quickly to OMGUS me.

[UnaBombaH]

he dropped a nonsensical theory on someone who is increasingly obvtown (hi it's me) and then left

There isn't much truth at all within this span of words.

At least not from a neutral standpoint and PoV.

I went nowhere, and you becoming "increasingly obv.town" is just something you say to try and suggest it around.

I feel like your position should be pushed and questioned now because otherwise you'll just slide to the endgame and we'll be none the wiser.

Was soon followed by

VOTE: Una

So he votes for me, and then finally gives his "reasoning" for his push on Froppy before (because now he finally has the material and narrative for it. This is exactly what scum do when they need more time to come up with a plan - vote a dead-ass null slot until something else "comes up".)

summary of my case against froppy: this is a towntelling list and I unambiguously do not townread froppy at all. Sirius was dead ass null but I was happy to let him live a phase or two. Waterd's self towncase was dull and easy to fake as scum, but I was happy to give him the benefit of the doubt. Froppy's iso is dull but I was happy to give her the benefit of the doubt.

+

Froppy is scum with Una but I do in a vacuum think una is playing this phase in worse faith. I kinda hinted at this earlier but w/e they can be scum together

So now the story was "Froppy is still scum, but Una is their partner and I'm willing to lynch either".

[lilith2013]

I feel like your position should be pushed and questioned now because otherwise you'll just slide to the endgame and we'll be none the wiser.

show me where you pushed and questioned that position, which is literally what I've been asking