Open 791 | Forest Fire | Game Over

[Bell]

This conversation feels like it’s more about getting me to unvote you and make sure my point is buried.
Than it is about finding the truth. I don’t particularly think that’s scummy though.

[Bell]

You weren’t worried about it. As you felt the player list wouldn’t react that way to your votes on them.

[Bell]

This is precisely what I mean, when I say you’re not interested in genuinely engaging with me.
Those quote blocks aren’t for me. They’re for everybody else.

[Bell]

It doesn’t look that way at all.
It isn’t over the top. And have you ever seen anybody do anything remotely like that as scum to their scum partner?

[Bell]

It’s clear from my posts that I think it beneath me to bus my partners day one when no one is scum reading them.
Or at least I thought it was until you misunderstood it somehow 400 posts ago when I said it was insulting to pair me with ydrasse.

And yes, I was trying to nip that in the bud, because it was silly to me. I believe farren later addressed that point for me which you conveniently left out in regards to 1719.

[Bell]

You are correct. Those quotes are showing my thoughts on why I believe you to be scum. The game of mafia wouldn't work if I kept those to myself and didn't share them with everyone.

I have seen TMI scumreads from partners on each other, yes.

Too much information scum reads? What do you mean?

[Bell]

You are correct. Those quotes are showing my thoughts on why I believe you to be scum. The game of mafia wouldn't work if I kept those to myself and didn't share them with everyone.

I have seen TMI scumreads from partners on each other, yes.

I’m aware that you try to get your scum reads eliminated in mafia.
I simply mean this discussion isn’t in good faith and after denying it you just admitted it.

[Bell]

I want to make it clear that this interaction is terrible from my POV.

[Bell]

You’re cribbing from isis.

[Bell]

Cite your sources.

[Bell]

Have I mentioned yet that I ‘m conflicted between isis and Mt and tea leaves because the only one who isn’t giving me a hard time is MT.
While isis is positioning herself precisely for this moment.

[Bell]

I think I really like this player list and am glad that if I get eliminated I can still bother you guys unless I get burnt to a crisp.

[Bell]

It’s hard though when you guys are clearly all strategizing. I don’t know which ones are coming from a town mindset and which ones are coming from a scum one.

[Bell]

I dunno what to say to that. They make sense to me.
If you’re wondering, i’ve used this to correctly and incorrectly identify scum before I have as both scum in multi ball(I was wrong, but my reads were fantastic otherwise!) and town (on white lion in a newbie game). The tell originated from white lion.

[Bell]

Are you saying Morning is sus because she isn't giving you a hard time, or not sus?

It’s sus.
I’m not as experienced as you are, but I’ve been bitten by the that particular archetype of mafia before.

[Bell]

Ja, I agree with Isis

Also, i would appreciate it if you could explain why that argument is bad sometime.
It’s not like most scum tells are any good or more rigorous than that one.

[Bell]

I do too and I think there are a lot of reasons she isn’t scum this game.
But I will always be paranoid about the player that doesn’t offend anyone and tackles tea leaves in the side when it’s safe to do so.

[Bell]

When I say pocketing I mean she was focused on normalizing relations. It was a focus for her. She chatted mostly and hunted little.
I have a perfect post about meta realignment when it comes to ydrasse and why her being relaxed didn’t mean she wasn’t scum especially when she seemed to be trying to convince herself to be relaxed as a method of method acting.

[Bell]

I also think friendliness is a town tell and say as much later. But there’s A difference between being friendly and buddying on purpose as a part of inoculating yourself from being voted.

Perhaps I should say that when I think about friendliness i’m Looking to see hesitation to engage or speak with someone on a personal level. Where they avoid interaction because thy’re Not on the same team.

[Bell]

Talking to people isn't townie if you're at all competent at this game you're aware that doing so is the bare minimum if you care about not getting eliminated. You've mentioned before in other games that A: You were stressed that you were scum and B: That competent scum will change to adjust for their own meta. Isis has looked at A, but either ignored or doesn't care about B.
It's not a town tell and saying it is without explaining why it is, is not convincing me that it's the opposite of what I said.

[Bell]

I’m willing to vote tea leaves now. I’m sorry and exasperated but you’ve missed context so many times that this is just bad faith argument at this point. Your view point is so stilted and unable to see context that i’m Having trouble seeing you as being anything other than clumsy scum.

Bell, can you give me an example of tea leaves missing context with respect to you from this game specifically? Or have all of the cases been from missing context in SIN (or other games)?

I’ll look. I think there were two or three.

[Bell]

yes, you are right, my vote on tea leaves was for nothing more than fun.

i actually mean it when i am putting a vote on someone and providing reasons and interacting with them. :>

p-edit: i do like campfires...

I was being snippy and defensive at the time when I made the beeboy point due to pressure. (Nahdia has a quote about beeboy from a game I played with her. I guess he might have a habit of death tunneling).

The next post was to balance myself out and try to be more fair by saying that I *could* see where she might be doing what she said she was doing.

[Bell]

Seriously though, please don't partner me with Ydrasse, it's insulting. If I was scum this game, I would never have been able to pull that off with Ydrasse scum.
At least partner me with someone that makes sense.
Like tealeaves.

Yeaaah, about this... I don't get why you'd be "insulted" that you were partnered with Ydrasse if you don't think scum!you is good enough to pull that off. Isn't that a compliment rather than an insult?

The rest is all sin I think. With his initial case and subsequent cases not having anything like a counter argument to their own reasoning
I’m also weirded out because I told tea leaves that I knew everything I said would be easily verifiable but he continued down the road of miscontextualizing my posts in other games. When I played in them and can easily dismantle any such miscontextualization.

This brought me down the road of thinking he was being too clumsy to be scum and they would care more about making sure they didn’t misrepresent me, but then I realized that that’s kind of NAI because it’s not good for either alignment to do so. But one relies on me being able to defend myself while the other requires effort on his part. I understand time constraints but this really was not handled well.

[Bell]

That’s what I just said. It really is NAI. Because first I thought you were town for it

[Bell]

I thought you're voting me because you think it's scummy though? Wasn't that what your vote was for?

No the miscontextualization is from all his cases that don’t have counter arguments or an attempt to understand me attached.
This is more a failure to understand what I mean repeatedly, like he’s not entertaining the idea he could be wrong. Because that fort sailed when he got a red role.

[Bell]

Boat. Not fort

[Bell]

I thought you're voting me because you think it's scummy though? Wasn't that what your vote was for?

I still strongly suspect this is tvt.

[Bell]

*looks at early explanations of why I vote people*

[Bell]

*breaks out the challk*

A few of bell’s town beliefs(i’ve really already addressed some of my scum beliefs).

1. Votes can be used for pressure to get a better read or attempt to get a better read on a player or force them to reveal more information to hopefully make an informed decision. If you have suspicions, vote and see where it leads! If you have doubts try to get clarity through gathering more information.
2. You can ~probably~ determine the difference between a town and scum player if you look at the data with the correct lense.
3. Datadatadata.

D1: Bell suspects Ydrasse > votes her and tries to understand her. Engages with others, about her. > bell makes the wrong decision and unvotes ydrasse to pursue a miselimination on gamma instead.

A: This is a common consequence to how I use my vote. If you vote people you merely suspect for something you will end up changing your mind a lot and often because of your focus end up being the person that unvotes. Because I was the one with the suspicions, the wagon naturally collapsed when I made up my mind. GL pointed out that the wagon and the attention on ydrasse would not have existed without me coming in.

D 1-2. bell reads morning tweet meta. > Bell suspects her > bell votes her and questions her. > Bell. makes another decision.
A. Same thing as ydrasse approach. Bottom 3 reads at the time were MT, Ydrasse, farren. GL moved up after reshuffling with thinking MT is town etc.


You can see this in past games too, I think. This doesn’t always mean my vote is on those I suspect, sometimes I really do think they’re scum. But I don’t ever really stop engaging with my reads and this causes a lot of fluctuations.

If you apply this lense you should be able to understand me.

You’re slowly killing my read of you. So here I am.

[Bell]

Moving on.

I notice when I refute a point you tend to either reinterpret me using this new information to still thinking i’m Scum or just ignore it. Is it because you’re hesitant to concede a point sometimes lest it concede credibility?
Do you take stock in that kind of play/thinking?

[Bell]

There is also no day chat for the scum team. Which means I had no means of asking for permission from her to push at her.

Which would explain why you switched off her when it looked like she might go through and didn't commit to launching her. HMMM

[Bell]

I want to make it clear that this interaction is terrible from my POV.

@farren. Crumbing my feelings. I don’t really like pointing to the stuff people miss when context is put in game, but eh. I suspect tea leaves. Which lowered my read of him which caused me to vote him and interact with him and see how genuine his push is.

[Bell]

It conclusion it still feels fairly town to me. Minus how bad the cases are and the failure to account for meta context which might be due to time constraints or might be scum.
Consider this read independent of Clidd which is significantly stronger and led to a delay in trying to read him further.

[Bell]

In other words.
Clidd + tealeaves/2 = lean town.

Clidd = probably town.
Tea leaves = weak lean town.

UNVOTE:

[Bell]

it's not!

i want to tell that to people who PoE everyone but themselves too!

Hypocrisy!

I'm not mafia but I might be a fiddle that Hectic is playing a jig with

Didn’t tea leaves later say the game was a jigsaw puzzle?

if you're not scum you need to drop the locktown on a player who only played 10% of this mafia game and vote scum with me

Would scum isis do this?

[Bell]

Also, this bit probably isn't AI, but how is saying the interaction is terrible from your PoV crumbing you think we're TvT?

Would this interaction be bad if you were scum or I was scum?
I don’t like it when there might be problems in elo due to tunneling.

My reads rn remain where they were GL < isis < tea < MT < farren.
From this POV it’s really difficult for me to like this where we end up with one of us heavily suspecting due to stumping.

It’s not really a crumb, that was more a linguistic artistic license statement.
it was more lamenting how awkward this is if we’re both town which I suspect.

[Bell]

So in summary I am bad at mafia.

Join the mediocre club.
We have cup cakes with vanilla frosting
Obligatory reassurance.

[Bell]

That and when people vote me there’s just an omgus/impetus to look more closely at what they’re doing and why. You were backlogged due to Clidd.
I understand time constraints and that optimally, as scum, your case would be so good i’d vote myself. But that’s just not how people are scum make bad pushes, town make bad pushes.

[Bell]

Okay but Isis really is towny now.

Why?

[Bell]

Oh yeah, those two pages were really towny from Isis. Sigh, and I was starting to talk myself into an Isis vote.

This is why this game is so great, because no matter who the scum is, they would've put in a hell of a performance. Going up against formidable scum is fun.

I wonder if you would be this complimentary of yourself if you actually were scum this game.
Even worse is this is a sentiment that i’ve Expressed and with similar timing. Before in this game.
It is very true tho.

[Bell]

I’m not sure if tea leaves is good enough to create these mirrored positions or opinions to get town read tho.

[Bell]

How many of my games have you meta’d of me tea leaves?

[Bell]

It occurs to me that tea leaves and I have been arguing for up on five hours now.
If he really is scum this game. Bravo

[Bell]

Congratulations on making it to the present.
It’s warm here.

[Bell]

VOTE: S_S

[Bell]

How many of my games have you meta’d of me tea leaves?

[Bell]

How many of my games have you meta’d of me tea leaves?

Mostly SIN but I very briefly looked elsewhere. You think you have noticable differences I should me metaing you for?

Newbie 2020.
A lot of my town elements are there.
Including mentioning that I wasn’t partners with a player or noting it.
In the dead thread the origin of why I read people who self-narrate based on white lion’s play.

[Bell]

VOTE: Bell

Is this a G_L > bell vote?

[Bell]

Bell and tea leaves are the slots I'm most interested in chopping still.
I'll VOTE: Bell with farren

VOTE: isis

[Bell]

I can’t help but feel S_S just out down two pet town reads before moving on.

[Bell]

Is this a G_L > bell vote?

I found your vote for S_S scummy. That was an unannounced E-1.

Pressure and evaluation votes do not mesh with E-1 unless they're announced.

Are you secretly bingle.

[Bell]

I disagree. Quite strongly.
There are obvious reasons why I would move my vote back to s_s in this situation.

[Bell]

I can’t help but feel S_S just out down two pet town reads before moving on.

What?

Do you remember how Joey, or was it red tea, saidI handed out a town read too easily as a means of getting town read/seem as if i’m Doing something?

[Bell]

I am deeply confused.

[Bell]

Wait, that's not true-- I'm reading Bell's posts too.

And Isis and Bell are my highest townreads so far but I don't know that that actually means anything because they're just the ones with posts I can digest.

Okay but Isis really is towny now.

How are your reads looking like, S_S? Bell and Isis town and everyone else null?

I like Bell's posting a lot, but I'm not really sure that it's alignment indicative.
It's probably something like Isis > MT (because I'm trusting you) > you (because of your recent posing wrt Isis and MT and also that one post you had about how you're really enjoying the game) > whoever's left which I guess is Bell and Farren.

You updated it later.
Also those trust reads are really weird.

[Bell]

UNVOTE: Bell
VOTE: Isis

E-1.

You just unvoted me but without a clear reason.

[Bell]

I disagree. Quite strongly.
There are obvious reasons why I would move my vote back to s_s in this situation.

Besides pressure and evaluation?

If my reads stay the same, my vote is going back there while i think I don’t always vote for pressure. But in this case The vote came first but the questions were right behind.


@S_S: I don’t know you very well or your play. I think it somewhat unlikely that you’d trust a player based off a single post that wasn’t strongly alignment indicative.

[Bell]

I knew a guy who had a scum tell for people who vote based on what looks like policy rather than deeper reasons.

[Bell]

Same reason I voted for you in the first place.

And Ydrasse did the exact same thing to GuiltyLion.

PEdit> Right now, Morning Tweet, then tea leaves.

Pattern recognition. That’s a better explanation imo.

[Bell]

Gut-brain desync again. Brain is insisting GL's slot is at the top of the list, for the same reasons as always. Gut is saying there hasn't been enough content from the slot and insisting that it should be lower. Bad gut, no biscuit.

@S_S: I don’t know you very well or your play. I think it somewhat unlikely that you’d trust a player based off a single post that wasn’t strongly alignment indicative.

Are you referring to me trusting tl's read on MT?

Yes.

[Bell]

Though, i’mma stop you there and say I recognize that just because a player might be scum (and in this case necessarily so), it forsn’t Mean they don’t Have real reasons for a town read. It’s easier that way anyway, than coming up with something whole cloth.

[Bell]

lol you guys had me for quite a while there but now I'm 100% convinced.

VOTE: Conspiracy

Locking it in

[Bell]

If my reads stay the same, my vote is going back there while i think I don’t always vote for pressure. But in this case The vote came first but the questions were right behind.

If a E-1 vote is going to be cast for pressure, it's got a heck of a lot more punch to it if it's announced as E-1.

You have a point on the aesthetics there. *nod* it would have been better to E-1 announce.

[Bell]

Yes.

What reason would I have to not trust tl's ability to read MT here? He's clearly familiar with her.

My default state is to believe that targeted reads like this are probably correct unless I see evidence to the contrary.

Cough ydrasse cough.

[Bell]

I had a patient who had schizophrenia that said the entire hospital was placed there with actors to keep him in there.
My issue with this is that wasn’t very cost effective.

[Bell]

I too am having one of those moments where I don’t know if I should be sheeping, Dunn, MT, or myself.

[Bell]

She’s asking on the big list of who you’d like to eliminate not because one of them could be doused in oil, but because they’re probably scum.

[Bell]

A reads list.

[Bell]

Can I ask for a reads list Isis.
Divorced from oil?

[Bell]

I would be very devastated if I was both chopped down by the town and lit on fire by the arsonist.

[Bell]

I can’t even say I told you so.

[Bell]

Thanks. I think i’m going to suicide now by sparing you.

[Bell]

VOTE: S_S

[Bell]

In lieu of potential fire and death.
I want to state that I told you so when I flip stump.
I also, would not have moved my vote here if I was arsonist. My position is too tenuous.
I’m not even sure this is the right move from me as town.

[Bell]

I will strongly state that I disagree with the associations people are making out on G_L.
It’s just not enough for me.

But everything everyone else has done this game is.
Which is why my vote is there.

[Bell]

I am all for ignoring the "try to kill town covered in oil" strat in favour of trusting our illustrious firefighter, though

This game is bullshit how are we circling back to S_S I dont wanna do that

Can we do Isis or Tea? If I can't get either of those IDFK who then

Do it anyway, i’m dying if you don’t.

[Bell]

By unvoting isis, and voting s_s who isn’t voting me.
Plus everyone else’s positions.
I feel it pretty likely.

[Bell]

I can get into more detail if you’d like farren.

You and MT have highest town credibility.
You have tea, Isis, but not s_s in the elimination pool.

Because you have high credibility, you’re more likely to swing the elimination pool to vote where you want.
By unvoting isis and voting S_S.

I directly conflict with your opinions and this puts me in a worse position.
S_S is not voting me, which if I want to increase my shot at survival I should court.
While tea leaves is actively scum reading me.

I use this understanding of the game to helpful effect in scum games. I’m mediocre scum (I believe) but i’m Still not bad enough to vote ydrasse out the gate in those conditions.

I don’t think isis will unvote me just for unvoting her when it would be a mistake to do so. Her opinions have not budged on my slot.

[Bell]

Cough ydrasse cough.

Context?

Lots of personal reads and meta reads saying she was town.
She was scum~

[Bell]

Dead line.
And dunstral flipped the board on her as a confirmed fire fighter.

[Bell]

By saying your slot was town btw. Also, yeah, you’re not being subtle with this line of questioning.

[Bell]

It’s what’d I do if I were scum this game.
*shrug*

[Bell]

Yeah, It was in regards to MT that tea leaves was in the pool.
I didn’t strictly know where you opinion was in regards to him.

For the most part yeah. I just would stick it to isis in this case if I wanted to live.

[Bell]

Farren why don't you townread me
I've felt so unguarded at various points this game

Isis, why don’t you town read me.

I’m fluffy.

[Bell]

Make no mistake, i’m not giving you permission to stump me. Too many town make that mistake. I’m simply stating that after all the posts i’ve made if you can’t see it, then you can’t see it.

[Bell]

Do you know what solve’s for a conspiracy game?

Scum being gone for a week.

[Bell]

Just sayin.

[Bell]

Easy.
Me+Dunn

[Bell]

That’s why they pay me the big bucks.

[Bell]

Counter point: S_S would have the sane potential benefit and wouldn’t have 100 posts pointing out why they were town while you ignored it or misread it.

[Bell]

Isis was telling ydrasse to self vote.
That’s pretty deadline specific.

[Bell]

Statistically, the player with the most posts isn’t scum.

[Bell]

I’m not sure how to drag you guys across a river you don’t want to cross.
Though, i’ll feel dumb if i’m wrong after dragging you across it.

[Bell]

Yes.

[Bell]

Tea leaves do you consider yourself a good scum hunter?

[Bell]

I haven’t been wagoned since I got back.

On my old account 6 years ago, I had a few games where I was extremely defensive.

[Bell]

I never quite got over people misreading me after I spent inordinate amounts of time showing why they were wrong.

[Bell]

It results in a feeling of bitterness.

[Bell]

I won’t be like gamma if I don’t get burnt up though. I’ll be giving you a hard time in here instead.

[Bell]

I suspect that your case making skills are considered poor. Given that you mentioned you liked this player list because they wouldn’t bite your head off for trying and making mistakes.

I don’t want to bite your head off. But I will be asking you a lot of questions about why you said you were thinking or that maybe i’m Not while never actually moving an inch or really not constantly implying I was scum throughout our discussions. I ultimately think that after this game I need to re-examine how I defend myself because i’m putting in significant amounts of effort to get it right, to make it clear, to virtually no effect if you’re town.

[Bell]

Also, the e-1 thing by farren just isn’t a good take.
It seems to vary wildly from game to game from what i’ve seen.
I was in a micro where a player named bingle got extremely suspicious of a player for putting another player at e-1 without mentioning it.
It didn’t work out there. They were pretty town otherwise.

Ironically, he later accidentally hammered.

[Bell]

Bingle did.

[Bell]

I’m not saying it might be accurate on some cases and I agree I could have said e-1 and that would have been to greater effect I think.
Just for obvious reasons both isis and I can’t both be scum so there’s a clear flaw in your face to using that reasoning to scum read people alone.

[Bell]

Was Bingle scum?

Nope. The player was town too.

[Bell]

I would say the burden of getting the read right is on the reader, yes, but that doesn't make someone a poor scumhunter for getting it wrong :I

I gave him significantly more than the average player would give him.while farren wasn’t convinced he could at least follow along.

[Bell]

I can’t argue with that.
I just lost my temper.

[Bell]

But, no to me tea leaves case and pursuit of it is off.
I just don’t think it’s scum off.

[Bell]

That’s really difficult to quantify.
I think for other reasons, she’s town this game.

[Bell]

Muay Thai class started. off for an hour.
Still think it’s S_S

[Bell]

*hits timer*

[Bell]

Bell.... I have no idea who's scum if it's not you right now.

And what Morning said: I feel like everyone in this game has efforted enough to warrant a "how can you think it's me??"

Booo

[Bell]

No, i’d said i’d Be back in an hour after muai Thai.

[Bell]

It wouldn’t have been very clever when it turned out I was a tree anyway lol.

[Bell]

I’m going to bed.
Giving him the last word is a bad idea.
But I argued all day and i’m emotionally exhausted.

[Bell]

Wow.
What an actual true relief.

[Bell]

I did not want to play the fall out to being wrong this round.

[Bell]

Thanks S_S.
This may have turned into an insane asylum
If the deadline stayed paused for another few days.

[Bell]

WAIT MY DREAM WAS WRONG

DREAMS AREN’T REAL BUCKO.

[Bell]

[Bell]

I like to think my death catalyzed our win?
Probably not though.

No. Your elimination was a mistake that I began regretting before you even flipped because you started genuinely trying to read your wagon.

I should have posted more baby bat pictures. Then maybe i wouldn’t have been so t0xic.
Sorry Tea leaves.

[Bell]

Isn’t emerald hill zone a sonic level?

[Bell]

I was primed.

This conspiracy game will haunt me forever.

[Bell]

Any advice on my play? I know it’s not a newbie game but I like learning what people feel.

[Bell]

I feel like the balance didn’t matter much in this game though.
The mechanics didn’t really have enough time to hurt the scum team, yeah?

[Bell]

i really had fun though and liked this table and game even if i was intimidated!

Glad you had fun.

[Bell]

That’s true. Thank you for your guidance.

[Bell]

...i would ask for advice but i think it would be “do more solving” yeah?

Everybody has their own opinions about what scum looks like. Figuring out what the player list thinks is scummy And townie is all you need really.

Most of us thought that being friendly was a town tell. So you being friendly helped you.
Not solving much was a scum tell for some of us, but not for others.

[Bell]

Probably some opinions would be backed with evidence if someone looked at the numbers. But then it moves out of the realm of opinion.

[Bell]

I have incredibly mixed feelings on this game. In some ways i’m proud and others ashamed.
I liked everyone here tho.
Thanks for playing with me.

[Bell]

Ydrasse: Correct.

Self-narration is when a player trys to construct an accounting of their own internal experience.
Perhaps said differently, it's when a player thinks out loud to get into their town character. The issue is right there in the wording, they don't need to type out their internal reasoning unprompted unless someone asks because they're town already. But a scum player that needs to fake the perspective of a town player might write something like that.

You can see a lot of examples of her talking about her internal reasoning prompted and unprompted. Sometimes she says she doesn't share her change in reads. But she consistently shares what she is internally thinking about whatever topic she's on. By saying 'I think' etc.

Danflorr: Wrong.

Does dannflorr always think out loud?

He’a pinged my scumdar twice by thinking outloud.

Does dannflorr always think out loud?I tend to try to be as transparent with my thoughts as possible yes

[/qoute]

Post#75.WhiteVion: Correct.

Mason PT: viewtopic.php?f=94&t=83723&start=75

Vion's post 1305 reads as third person, there was evidenencece of this earlier too. I associate this sort of writing slightly with mafia because they're trying to construct a town perspective and they tend to write "what I would think as town" in this sort of style.

Not sure how to link directly to the specific post in the locked thread.

[Bell]

[Bell]

Don't mind me!