Newbie 2036 - Game Over

[Marky Mark]

As alluded to immediately above, I will post my current reads in more detail later and will make a meaningful (non-RVS) vote at the same time but for now:

UNVOTE: Satisfaction

While your logic for voting me seems a little thin, I like the fact that you are analyzing other player's motives for posting and trying to be proactive. Again, this could be scum trying to build a case against me out of nothing, but that is a WIFOM rabbit hole that I am not going to go down right now so I will take this on face value as townish and remove my earlier RVS vote, which has outlived its purpose.

[Micc]

Votecount 1.02

Gawr (3) -

Tayl0r Swift, Trendall, donkihott

donkihott (2) -

Fredrick A Campbell, hessian

Trendall (1) -

Olivia2020

Tayl0r Swift (1) -

Gawr

Marky Mark (1) -

Satisfaction

Not Voting (1) -

Marky Mark

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to eliminate.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2020-10-26 19:05:00).

[Fredrick A Campbell]

As alluded to immediately above, I will post my current reads in more detail later and will make a meaningful (non-RVS) vote at the same time but for now:

UNVOTE: Satisfaction

While your logic for voting me seems a little thin, I like the fact that you are analyzing other player's motives for posting and trying to be proactive. Again, this could be scum trying to build a case against me out of nothing, but that is a WIFOM rabbit hole that I am not going to go down right now so I will take this on face value as townish and remove my earlier RVS vote, which has outlived its purpose.

Even then, why unvote?
VOTE: Marky Mark

[Tayl0r Swift]

Okay, what are your reasons for town-reading donkihott?

im not going to explain it any further at this time. its a very simple tell and it loses its potency once its discussed.

[Olivia2020]

Hello everybody

Hi.

That vote RVS or no?

I find this remark scummy. The vote was most likely RVS because of the page number, and post number, and I feel like gawr wouldn't have said this if he was town. I feel like he is saying it because he is worried about being eliminated, but I am almost 100% sure this vote was RVS.

[Tayl0r Swift]

I am all for being a pragmatist, and I would understand if you were replacing into a 10+ page game and didn't have time to read it all, but when we are literally talking about 3 pages then I feel it is reasonable to expect people to engage with the game and take the time to make use of the full body of info available to make the most informed decision possible, especially when our collective success depends on people making good judgement calls..

its not the length of the game - newbie games are typically very short. ill happily read through the entire game - with the exception of excessively long posts. that one looked particularly boring and i dont think you gain as much from a long, carefully constructed post as you do from a series of shorter, less thought-through posts. plus the topic of the post didnt seem to be anything that would be helpful in sorting. the way youre trying to shade me for not reading that post is interesting. it doesnt seem genuine at all. actually all of your posts seem a bit artificial. i dont have meta to say for sure, but your posting style is scummy to me. there is one out-of-game factor that could cause a false positive.

so yes - people should post, but when they do it should be short and sweet. if your post is boring you wont convince me of anything.

[Tayl0r Swift]

VOTE: marky mark

i like this wagon.

[Tayl0r Swift]

As alluded to immediately above, I will post my current reads in more detail later and will make a meaningful (non-RVS) vote at the same time but for now:

UNVOTE: Satisfaction

While your logic for voting me seems a little thin, I like the fact that you are analyzing other player's motives for posting and trying to be proactive. Again, this could be scum trying to build a case against me out of nothing, but that is a WIFOM rabbit hole that I am not going to go down right now so I will take this on face value as townish and remove my earlier RVS vote, which has outlived its purpose.

Even then, why unvote?
VOTE: Marky Mark

yeah you should leave your vote somewhere. even if you change it later, unvoting feels notgood

[hessian]

I think you are the only one overreacting here.

Very well; do you have any views on the rest of the thread that you'd like to share?

[hessian]

Quick PSA: Marky Mark is now at E-2. If you vote for him, please clearly state that you're putting him at E-1.

[Marky Mark]

As promised, my reads so far:

1. Gawr

Not a massive amount to go off, as she only has 4 posts, the most recent of which is #18 so still well within the RVS stage. In her #14, she calls out Satisfaction for his tone, but beyond that, there is little of substance.

No strong read right now.

2. Tayl0r Swift

Has made some moderately contradictory posts ( eg "thats why its so important that everyone votes and is active. (#54)" vs "posting is good. but if your post is an essay, im prolly gonna skip it, especially on day 2" (#68)). This now makes more sense after 80 although I'm confused by her logic that longer thought-out posts are less useful - surely the fact that someone has taken time to think through it means it is more likely to be insightful. Her calling donki town in #55 is fairly opaque, so I'm finding it hard to get a good read on her and her motives for writing that. The more I read 80, the more it feels like a bit of a flail - there's not really that much actual substance when it comes down to it. Her vote on me is E-2 btw, just thought I'd call that out as she has conveniently forogtton to mention it.

Hard to read but closer to scum than town - her posts don't have much substance to them and it feels like she is not really engaging with the game below the surface level, while remaining opportunistic.

3.hessian

She seems to be proactive in trying to scum hunt eg her #34 calling out my word choice (I mean, it was just how I happened to write it, but it's good that she is trying to look for reads on people) and also eg #71, trying to tease meaningful info out of players who haven't been contributing as much. This is tempered by her vote on donki, which seems a bit shallow:

What matters to me is that in donkihott's mind, my single post means that I'm very suspicious of him. This feels like scum overreacting. VOTE: donkihott

I still think you are misreading what donki meant, ie he admitted in his own post that his reason for instinctively finding you sus was not a good one, but I'm sure he can address this better than I can as he wrote it haha. Would be a bold play by donki as scum to make a self-aware post criticizing his own flawed thought process, so I think Hessian is making way too much out of this. My town read on donki makes this seem even more sus by relation, but still outweighed by the town points above in the scheme of things.

Mild town read


4. Olivia2020

Hasn't posted much and only has one post with any meaningful analysis (#79):

Hello everybody

Hi.

That vote RVS or no?

I find this remark scummy. The vote was most likely RVS because of the page number, and post number, and I feel like gawr wouldn't have said this if he was town. I feel like he is saying it because he is worried about being eliminated, but I am almost 100% sure this vote was RVS.

This is a bit of a strawman argument - I don't see how being worried about being eliminated has any correlation with asking someone about why they voted randomly. Moreover, Trendall actually stated later on that he doesn't vote randomly, meaning that your post is not only making a spurious scum read but is also factually incorrect when it claims Trendall's vote was clearly an RVS:

As far as I can remember I only ever use my vote to vote for the person I identify as the biggest threat to the town. I don't vote to 'get reactions' and I don't vote randomly. However any vote of mine could have any degree of certainty from 'I don't care about this vote' to 'I am not changing my vote here whatever happens'. My vote on Gawr here is very much an 'I don't care about this vote'.

Leaning towards scum

5. Satisfaction

Hasn't posted loads, but what he has posted is actually meaningful and contains some solid analysis on the most part. #62 and #66 feel pretty on the money and, as I have already mentioned, while his reasons for voting me seem pretty wifom-y, the fact he is actively trying to analyse people's posts and think about why they might have phrased them so feels like a fairly town thing to do.

Town read.

6. donkihott

As I have said previously, his tone feels fairly authentic town and his self-awareness in #56 doesn't strike me as a scum trait. Would be good to hear more from him though as he hasn't posted a great deal.

Town read.

7. Trendall (SE)

Like others, I found his coyness a bit scummy at first, but he's posted some decent analysis and I'm coming round to the idea of him being town. His vote is still on Gawr from very early on and he has not really posted anything since his big essay post (#31) in terms of who he sees at scum atm so would be good to hear from him more.

Mild town read.

8. Fredrick A Campbell (SE)

I was already finding his focus on the mechanics of posting rather than the actual game state a little scummy as it felt like trying to post stuff without saying anything that could later be pinned against him (he has not said anything meaningful all game). In response to his #77, I unvoted because I feel like votes have meaning and purpose (I'm with Trendall on this one) so it made sense IMO to take it off now that we are out of RVS until I had had time to sit down properly and analyse people's posts and put it down meaningfully on someone.

Scum read.

I had called him out in #74 and promised to vote later so this feels a bit like a pre-emptive vote to me, ie him getting in there and voting me first so that if I vote him it comes across as OMGUS.

[Marky Mark]

As promised - please bask in the glory of my ScumPlotter (TM) mk 1

[Marky Mark]

Now to get to voting and also respond in doing so to Taylors point in #80 that me calling her out for not engaging with the game is artificial.

What I am basically really scared of is letting people fly under the radar - it's been a long long time since I have played, but the most insidious type of scum to deal with in my previous experiences is the type that just lurks and doesn't post a lot as it is hard to differentiate between this and someone who just generally isn't engaged with the game. What I really don't want to happen is that we end up on D2 or even further and we have no meaningful info to go off on certain players as they haven't said anything of substance in previous days. As such, I am trying to be clear in my thoughts and my intentions and I want to see others do the same - it is in the interests of the town.

Of the players in this game, the ones I am currently finding the most suspicious (with the noteable exception of donki) also happen to be ones that are sitting back and not giving us much to go off.

FOS Taylor

I've covered this already but her general disinterest and lack of explanations is starting to feel anti-town. #80 is a flail and #81 is opportunistic. There is absolutely zero reason not to state E-2 in #81 - it is to the town's benefit to know when someone is within 2 votes of a lynch.

VOTE: Fred

Weaker read than Taylor but potentially more scummy. The lurking combined with the 0 context vote on me as soon as I voice my suspicions of you is fishy. I also feel like my vote will do more on Fred than it will on Taylor as hopefully we will actually get some substance/explanation out of him but they are both looking shady to me right now.

[donkihott]

Very well; do you have any views on the rest of the thread that you'd like to share?

Well not much to be honest, I noticed that Gawr started really loud and he is dead quiet now even though he's been asked a direct question, Marky likes longer posts and Taylor prefers short.
Right now to me Marky seems like one of the good ones or at least he is really trying to appear as one.
What is a good pace of the game? Like, should we pressure people to vote and/or defend themselves to go on the next phase or should we take our time.

[Marky Mark]

Just a really quick one from me - I realise that I have used a couple of terms that might not be super-newbie friendly and the whole point of this game is for us all to learn so here are a couple of links:

FOS - https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... _Suspicion

WIFOM - https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=WIFOM

Ockham's razor - https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... %27s_Razor

Hope that is mildly useful, now to get back to cooking my dinner

[Satisfaction]

should we pressure people to vote and/or defend themselves to go on the next phase or should we take our time.

We should vote and apply pressure. Watch how people wriggle when we leave them on the hook. Observe the reactions of the other players and get them on record about their feelings on the wagons. As the game goes on, it will be handy to look back to today and watch who moved their votes, where, and when.

We should not make an elimination until we are nearly out of time.

[Tayl0r Swift]

Very well; do you have any views on the rest of the thread that you'd like to share?

Well not much to be honest, I noticed that Gawr started really loud and he is dead quiet now even though he's been asked a direct question, Marky likes longer posts and Taylor prefers short.
Right now to me Marky seems like one of the good ones or at least he is really trying to appear as one.
What is a good pace of the game? Like, should we pressure people to vote and/or defend themselves to go on the next phase or should we take our time.

yes hes doing a lot to try and look town. but his analysis is pretty poor and based on stuff that i dont think is AI without more context. most of his reads are ????????????? to me, and usually thats a sign of scum.

[Trendall]

so would be good to hear from him more.

I'm just continuing to vote for Gawr, I dunno if they're gonna come back and say more, and then if they do I'll decide what to do. Lynch on Marky Mark is fine I have no objection to it. Marky Mark's votes just flail around between whoever is 'offering less content' or whatever, and his whole entire posts are just about how people should be generating content and explaining themselves and so on - there was no indication that people weren't going to sorta do this anyway so I don't know if it needed to be said once. So I've read so much about how it's important to generate content, and him signposting exactly what he's doing and how towny it is that I just think 'yeah I don't need to read this any more we can lynch him it's fine'.

Otherwise I think everyone else seems like town other than hessian who piggybacked Marky Mark's sketchy 'generating content' and 'look how town I am' stuff. Plus they both made some rough arguments (Marky Mark in post 27, hessian in post 34). Actually yeah I think one of those two will be the mafia and then yeah maybe Gawr for the other one.

[Marky Mark]

should we pressure people to vote and/or defend themselves to go on the next phase or should we take our time.

We should vote and apply pressure. Watch how people wriggle when we leave them on the hook. Observe the reactions of the other players and get them on record about their feelings on the wagons. As the game goes on, it will be handy to look back to today and watch who moved their votes, where, and when.

We should not make an elimination until we are nearly out of time.

This is absolutely on the money, time is a resource that we have, so we ought to make good use of it.

[Marky Mark]

Very well; do you have any views on the rest of the thread that you'd like to share?

Well not much to be honest, I noticed that Gawr started really loud and he is dead quiet now even though he's been asked a direct question, Marky likes longer posts and Taylor prefers short.
Right now to me Marky seems like one of the good ones or at least he is really trying to appear as one.
What is a good pace of the game? Like, should we pressure people to vote and/or defend themselves to go on the next phase or should we take our time.

yes hes doing a lot to try and look town. but his analysis is pretty poor and based on stuff that i dont think is AI without more context. most of his reads are ????????????? to me, and usually thats a sign of scum.

Sorry, I'm genuinely not familiar with AI as an acronym in a Mafia context - would you mind explaining?

So, you've asked me for reads, I have obliged based on what we know so far

As others have pointed out, if we are open about our suspicions now, then it makes the task of discerning scum much easier later on when alignments have started to be revealed. In many cases those reads were based off ~4 posts so it's not gonna be Sherlock levels of analysis haha.

[Marky Mark]

so would be good to hear from him more.

I'm just continuing to vote for Gawr, I dunno if they're gonna come back and say more, and then if they do I'll decide what to do. Lynch on Marky Mark is fine I have no objection to it. Marky Mark's votes just flail around between whoever is 'offering less content' or whatever, and his whole entire posts are just about how people should be generating content and explaining themselves and so on - there was no indication that people weren't going to sorta do this anyway so I don't know if it needed to be said once. So I've read so much about how it's important to generate content, and him signposting exactly what he's doing and how towny it is that I just think 'yeah I don't need to read this any more we can lynch him it's fine'.

Otherwise I think everyone else seems like town other than hessian who piggybacked Marky Mark's sketchy 'generating content' and 'look how town I am' stuff. Plus they both made some rough arguments (Marky Mark in post 27, hessian in post 34). Actually yeah I think one of those two will be the mafia and then yeah maybe Gawr for the other one.

So this is a bit of a strawman - I have made exactly one non-RVS vote so clearly, my vote isn't flailing around between people. I do think his vote on gwar serves a purpose though - there are currently 4 players with 5 or fewer posts who we are effectively giving a free ride to. That's not to say they are necessarily scum, but I don't want to go into day 2+ with nothing of substance from them to make a read off.

I am also loving this 'too town' argument from both Taylor and Trendall. It's a sneaky one as it is impossible to discredit. I'm just going to continue to try and add value and make myself of use and people can draw their own conclusions . Fwiw I still think Trendall is more likely town than not.

[Marky Mark]

Should have included this in my above post but just wanted to say goodnight all - it's been really enjoyable playing with you all this weekend

[Satisfaction]

AI: alignment indicative

[Tayl0r Swift]

so would be good to hear from him more.

I'm just continuing to vote for Gawr, I dunno if they're gonna come back and say more, and then if they do I'll decide what to do. Lynch on Marky Mark is fine I have no objection to it. Marky Mark's votes just flail around between whoever is 'offering less content' or whatever, and his whole entire posts are just about how people should be generating content and explaining themselves and so on - there was no indication that people weren't going to sorta do this anyway so I don't know if it needed to be said once. So I've read so much about how it's important to generate content, and him signposting exactly what he's doing and how towny it is that I just think 'yeah I don't need to read this any more we can lynch him it's fine'.

Otherwise I think everyone else seems like town other than hessian who piggybacked Marky Mark's sketchy 'generating content' and 'look how town I am' stuff. Plus they both made some rough arguments (Marky Mark in post 27, hessian in post 34). Actually yeah I think one of those two will be the mafia and then yeah maybe Gawr for the other one.

exactly. tons of talk about how everyone should be playing, but no talk about how the things people are doing makes him sort them as town or scum.

[Tayl0r Swift]

Sorry, I'm genuinely not familiar with AI as an acronym in a Mafia context - would you mind explaining?

AI was explained, and its contrasted with NAI - not alignment indicative. im saying your scumhunting is pointing to things that i dont think are useful in sorting people as town or scum without a lot of meta information to back it up, which you arent providing and dont seem to have.