Mini Normal 2170: Stuff I’m Listening To [Game Over]

[Umlaut]

Vote Count 2.7

Gamma Emerald

(3): Kasumeat, Panzerjager, Noraa

Noraa

(3): Thestatusquo, Gamma Emerald, UneducatedGuesser

Blitzo

(1): Not_Mafia

Panzerjager

(1): Blitzo

Not voting

(3): PookyTheMagicalBear, The Bulge, OutWorldER

With 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to yeet someone.

Deadline

: (expired on 2020-10-23 22:50:00)

[Thestatusquo]

Its 2 days before deadline and we've got 4 players who haven't posted in over a day and like 3 for which its been almost as long.

This is ridiculous.

[Gamma Emerald]

I’ve been struggling to reconcile my thoughts about how Blitzo was dealing with my mason gambit idea, because I have past experience with doing it myself and the result was scum balking at it but also calling me town for it. I felt like the way Blitzo’s confusion read was a bit incongruous with how that past scum handled things, but upon consideration I realized that past scum just had a unique perspective on that sort of risky play.
So, just on the merits of Blitzo’s own reaction, I think it kinda feels like scum who was concerned about tying themselves to me with a dangerous claim like that. Obviously the intent would never have been to pass as masons, our interactions with each other had passed into explicit suspicion at times. I tried to make it clear that I wanted to find who might be scum accepting the claim immediately, but he kept being confused, and I think it’s because he really didn’t want to make a move that would draw attention to him like that. I’m aware there might be a little confbias because of how similar the read on this is to how I’m reading his interest in me addressing UG. I feel like there is still value to this feeling, however, due to how long it’s been gnawing it me that something was up about it.

Anyway, I see UG responded to me pretty recently, and I think the response is along the lines of the response I’d hoped he’d have without my prodding if the situation. So I feel like maybe I was being stubborn over what was a moot point, though I think Blitzo’s reaction to me dodging the issue was worth more than the potential gain I saw in holding out like I did.

[Kasumeat]

I don't fucking TR anyone. Literally everyone's scummy asf and I don't even know who the hell is town. The only ones that aren't scummy literally never talk and thats literally prolly the only reason why I don't SR them-bc they aren't ever here anyways.

My best bet at TRs is all the softs that recently happened. I believe one is a lie and I think gamma's is the lie.
My TRs solely based on softs would be blitz and outworld.

I agree that a lot of people are scummy this game but this doesn't make any sense. If you are town and honestly believe that there are nearly a dozen scummy players here, well, a few of those have to be less scummy than the others. But you're saying that before the claims you didn't have a single town read or even lead. You're not trying to make sense of this game, you're just trying to portray nearly everyone as scummy.

It doesn't really matter tho cuz tonight I'll likely be able to find one scum solidly and that's enough to progress game state even if we mislim today. I'm saying this cuz I have confidence scum won't kill me even if I claim I can find one tonight. They only know I am town. Besides that, there is no way they can tell if I can truly find one of them tonight. If they have a RBer, I might be a bit screwed but hopefully they don't cuz if they don't, I'll have a confscum or very very close to confscum person by tmrw.

Lol really? So whatever you role is, you targeted Shea last night, your result was something that did not confirm Shea is scum, then you voted him, and now you're saying that you'll have a "confscum or very very close to confscum person by tmrw"? How can you have a role that is so weak as an investigative that you get a negative result on a player, proceed to vote them regardless, and yet be certain that it will be extremely helpful if we let you live one more night?

VOTE: Noraa

[Blitzo]

I'm here but kinda lurky atm. My shift ends soon so I'll be faffing about in thread until it ends and then I'll review more stuff if necessary.

I’ve been struggling to reconcile my thoughts about how Blitzo was dealing with my mason gambit idea, because I have past experience with doing it myself and the result was scum balking at it but also calling me town for it. I felt like the way Blitzo’s confusion read was a bit incongruous with how that past scum handled things, but upon consideration I realized that past scum just had a unique perspective on that sort of risky play.
So, just on the merits of Blitzo’s own reaction, I think it kinda feels like scum who was concerned about tying themselves to me with a dangerous claim like that. Obviously the intent would never have been to pass as masons, our interactions with each other had passed into explicit suspicion at times. I tried to make it clear that I wanted to find who might be scum accepting the claim immediately, but he kept being confused, and I think it’s because he really didn’t want to make a move that would draw attention to him like that. I’m aware there might be a little confbias because of how similar the read on this is to how I’m reading his interest in me addressing UG. I feel like there is still value to this feeling, however, due to how long it’s been gnawing it me that something was up about it.

Anyway, I see UG responded to me pretty recently, and I think the response is along the lines of the response I’d hoped he’d have without my prodding if the situation. So I feel like maybe I was being stubborn over what was a moot point, though I think Blitzo’s reaction to me dodging the issue was worth more than the potential gain I saw in holding out like I did.

Stop acting like your plan was this well thought out masterpiece.
It took several lines to get

anything

resembling a plan out of you in yet you're acting like the reason is because you had some kind of golden plan and you were crystal clear about everything that was going on. All you said was "let's claim masons" some time after someone posted a case on you which you completely ignored for a huge period of time.

This angle you're pushing is nonsense and I think you need to take a long, hard look at how exactly you've been pushing your ideas. They're nowhere near as clear as you're saying they are.

[Blitzo]

Noraa should full claim now. Putting her at L-1 is putting her in hammer range for NM.

[Gamma Emerald]

I know what I said was more verbose than that re: the mason gambit. And while I went to fact check myself on that I also noticed you explicitly requested I refute UG’s case. Doesn’t seem like something someone who agrees with UG would say, now does it?

[Kasumeat]

Blitzo, beyond being unclear, is there anything about Gamma's messages to you that you'd say is AI?

[Kasumeat]

Noraa should full claim now. Putting her at L-1 is putting her in hammer range for NM.

Yes to be clear my vote puts her at L-2 with NM not currently voting her

[Blitzo]

@Gamma - You are correct - it doesn't.
I realized that something had happened that I thought was relevant and I couldn't figure out what to make of it.
So I asked around and gathered opinions to maybe flesh out my own more.

Either way it was something that could have been resolved by simply answering me like a week ago which never happened, which is infuriating to no end that your complete refusal to talk to me about the most simple things that probably could have been resolved in less than a day.

UNVOTE:

No longer think Gamma’s the best option. My issues with his D1 voting record remain, but the hood being outed and the issues springing forth from it happening make things different.

Okay so I am actually going to fully out myself here because I’m super fucking concerned about what just transpired. Me and Blitzo are in a neighborhood together and I’ve been constantly struggling to get him to interact in it, and he doesn’t have any hang-ups about using hoods so it really bothers me that he’s so inactive. This was why I supported Shea’s pressure there super-early, in fact. I thought he might have been trying to use hood contents to push me as scum towards the end of D1, and that’s why I threatened civil war. We managed to work it out overnight where he stayed he wasn’t actually referring to hood contents at all but my actions in the main thread. After we resolved that I collaborated with him to decide a push to work on while I waited for MafiaSunny to end, and we landed on Panzer.

So UG, that should address your concerns about my slot, and it’s funny I do this now because Blitzo has been freaking out about your read on me for some time. I’d been starting to grow concerned that he didn’t want me to go down because I am tied to him and have generally been a benefactor for him, plus since your concern about me involved my Blitzo interactions he might have felt pressured through that.

Anyway, on to the real concern of mine that drives me to post this now. I had spoken of my skepticism that the entire limpool for D2 happened to be all town PRs. While speaking on that I mentioned I recalled Noraa dropping he hint of not being a very important role D1. Li and behold Noraa suddenly remembers to speak on that not 3 minutes later. I’m super concerned Blitzo dropped a line to his buddy Noraa to handle that concern, and her, being new, didn’t really have a grasp on how to do that without drawing the attention of the one who had the best window into that connection.

So I’m super concerned about Blitzo and Noraa being partners now, and if we’re not gonna vote Noraa because she softed a PR can we PLEASE consider voting Blitzo out instead for seemingly feeding Noraa lines to handle my suspicions?

Explains some of what I was feeling, actually. Something about you and Blitzo together kept nagging even after your twilight interactions, as you noted, and did some to inform my leanings on him.

I think force-feeding him the answers doesn't allow him to truly show his work. And I could have said that in the hood but I really didn't see why the hell you needed to know? Fourth time saying this I think, but he was pushing me for the most part, not you. So unless you were worried that the pressure on me would lead into pressure on you, which seems like scummy thing to be worried about, it should not be your problem. And yeah, I did kinda shoot myself in the foot but I was mega-spooked so I wasn't exactly thinking that extra step when I wrote out that part.

I didn't push the issue because I felt okay with my vote as it stood at the time, and since I wasn't particularly confident in my overall grasp of the game beyond it I felt ok parking and using my time to evaluate other players. I actually found myself becoming less interested in your reactions (I’ve started feeling better about you as the day went on, all things considered) and more interested in the fact that Blitzo kept asking other people in the game about their opinions on my case on you.

I think Pooky referenced it too, earlier on during the phase, that when I first dropped the vote on you he was shading me a little on the back and forth then suddenly a few other people expressed approval of the post and he backed off of me and started trying to gather opinions on you instead. The hood existing makes sense of his response, but not really in a good way, for me. See, if Blitzo’s green and thinks Gamma’s red, what exactly is he worried about, right? He can just stop using the hood, push you straight up, out the hood himself, etc… why the push by proxy? Because that’s what it seemed like, when Blitzo kept asking people about my Gamma case, it felt like he was trying it on my behalf while trying to keep himself from really being seen to be a part of it.

So, Biltzo has said he agreed with me, and if that’s the case…
-Why shade me?
-Why back off shading me when people in the game liked my posts?
-Why not actually express agreement on things himself, why spend all of his time trying to gauge the rest of the playerlist about what they thought of Gamma?
-Why only act on his own suspicions on Gamma when Gamma calls him out?

Starting to think Blitzo figured he could push a wagon on one of us, but was more interested in finding out which wagon was easier than picking the right wagon.

Like, Blitzo MIGHT just be paranoid as hell, here, but there’s a few things wrong there for me right now.

HOWEVER….

After everything with Noraa, Blitzo becomes less of a concern for me this day, at least until Noraa claims, there’s just TOO goddamn much at this point from her.

All the people that want the Noraa claim… I nth their motion.
(Also lul she doesn't know how to read me. Same shit again and again, she's done it to Shea, she's done it to me, she's doing it to Gamma now... she knows to SR people talking about her and ignore people that aren't. Stopped actively SRing me when I stopped talking, look how that worked out. Pretty much every goddamn time at this point.)

VOTE: Noraa

*You aren't as towny as you think you are and I'm trying to shape my reads based on your incredibly subpar participation, which is difficult enough as is.
*Uh. What?
*I have given this answer to Gamma as per the above.
*I was talking to Gamma in the neighborhood trying to get more information which was like pulling teeth.

[Blitzo]

I will not that I'm

still

not entirely certain what happened wrt Gamma/UG and I still need some kind of resolution there considering how weird it was.
UG popping back into the thread to unvote his scumread only when everyone else is switching is not the best and definitely needs more looking into, especially since Gamma started posting those things way beforehand and not afterwards. Seems like an unnatural evolution of a read.

@Kasu - good question, I'm gonna look back into the neighborhood and answer you shortly.

[Blitzo]

*I will note.

Sorry, typo.
Anyways.

[Blitzo]

Blitzo, beyond being unclear, is there anything about Gamma's messages to you that you'd say is AI?

I double checked back in the neighborhood.
I would say not really.
I remember feeling better about him after EoD1 after we talked things out for a bit and then I was thrown for a loop day 2 wrt him/UG.
A lot of his thoughts seem fine before he went and did the thing.

There was read discussion for a long time but other than that there's been little discussed.
If you want to know about

specific

reads I'm sure I can dig them up but pretty much everything in there is congruous with the thread.

[OutWorldER]

Still working on my flow chart, haven't really had much time or energy to dedicate to this game.

I have a feeling Noraa has no claim at all considering I can't really think of any Normal role that investigates someone N1, gets

some sort of result

that doesn't imply scuminess or towiness and then can get a confscum or conftown on N2.

[Blitzo]

I'm also getting incredibly annoyed with the fact that the game continues to be active posters arguing amongst themselves while more than half the game does nothing.
It seems like the tunnels are getting worse all the time and people are just hopping on wagon du joir when it becomes convenient to do so.

If noraa flips scum here I'd be happy but still somewhat surprised.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

so you think noraa is town here? how are you seeing that?

[PJ.]

Gamma and blitzo are just scum.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

mafia that are neighbors with each other?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

like how would that even make sense -.-

[Blitzo]

so you think noraa is town here? how are you seeing that?

Well.
She can be.
I can also see a world where she isn't.

It just consistently feels so bad to watch eliminations happen by people just kind of flopping about onto whatever is convenient.
More than half the game is so...

Nothing

that it's hard to watch the unstoppable mass of lazy butts meandering uselessly onto the most convenient vote and still think it's a good idea.

Gamma seemed to be that for a while.
Now it's noraa.

Granted noraa's claim is mediocre thus far and maybe she's just scum who screwed up and I'm overthinking things but this feels so similar to the MC elimination that I'm having a hard time getting behind it.

Honestly she should just claim so we can see what we have to do about it.

PEDIT:

Gamma and blitzo are just scum.

lol

[Blitzo]

Basically it's my logical conclusion that noraa is scum based on making no sense versus thinking she's town because the environment is just bad.
I'm not sure but her role definitely needs to be resolved now.

As for panzer, he has consistently shown that he doesn't care about what's going on in thread and continues to push reads that make no sense.
This is the second time that he's done this I can think of offhand and it really shouldn't be surprising to anyone at this point.

[Gamma Emerald]

Spoiler: setting the tone

So I looked through duppin’s Noraa mentions looking for any clues I had missed and I found some interesting data.

Honestly speaking, if my presence is just making people mad for some reason you might as well just lim me off. My role isnt useful to town anyways but no I'm not scum. Im fine with flipping to give town more to work with and less to be annoyed at. Im sorry if my plays bothered people lots. I'll eat the lim if that's what town wants. Last time something like this came up, someone replaced out bc of me and I felt terrible so I'd much rather I eat the lim then end up feeling bad for making people have a terrible time.

if you are town then i dont think this is a good post to make

but i have to say i actually think the "my role isnt useful to town anyways" is a really sketchy thing to say

The nested Noraa quote is absolutely incongruous with how she is acting today. I would never call a role that could confirm a player’s alignment “useless to town”. Plus she was apparently completely okay with getting eliminated despite being a PR, which is an awful look for someone who had led a town to a win as JKer. The lies end here.

[Noraa]

mafia that are neighbors with each other?

they would be lying about the neighborhood in this case

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

ok but then one of them would flip mafia without a neighborhood and then the other would be screwed no?

[Gamma Emerald]

I must be dreaming rn