Mini Theme 2161: Undertale C Open - Chara's Folly

[CantHateAPuppy]

My sus pool ftr is [Launchy, Pooky, Krazy] right now. I just don't feel confident about any one read to case or push it.

The tier above that is probably [Tanner, Lavender].

pooky? tanner? i just feel like we're playing two different games. if i could resolve this into a solid scumread or a solid townread, i would feel a lot better about you and the game in general

what did you think about Hectic's response to 2597 puppy? also do you have any feelings or thoughts about him having you and pooky as his bottom tier?

i didn't understand which order the tiers were in and am still waiting for this answer:

My sus pool ftr is [Launchy, Pooky, Krazy] right now. I just don't feel confident about any one read to case or push it.

The tier above that is probably [Tanner, Lavender].

pooky? tanner? i just feel like we're playing two different games. if i could resolve this into a solid scumread or a solid townread, i would feel a lot better about you and the game in general

Probably be more accurate to say this:

Tanner, Lavender
Launchy, Pooky


Krazy

Krazy's slot was my only scumread and now he's not a thing. The rest aren't scumleans even and I see more town than scum there - this is the problem.

is this top bottom or bottom top

[CantHateAPuppy]

but if hectic has me and pook as most-want-to-launch tier... that's just weird. he needs to explain that even a little to convince me it's not an attempt to have weird reads from the rest of the game so he looks like he's not pretending to solve.

[CantHateAPuppy]

scum: taylor, hectic

on this we're on the same page tbh. i would be fine with either of these unless hectic gives me a good reason otherwise. it's not even that he's the scummiest i've ever seen, he's just not making himself ease to sort

[CantHateAPuppy]

2 is worth elaboration, which is that they might be chara hammersitting, but do any of us think lavender is hovering over the game just waiting for their chance here? or have they literally just been AFK for 100 pages?

if this is lavender's game im going to feel so stupid for not hammering when i had the chance

[CantHateAPuppy]

prism's final readlist

town: puppy/krazy/tanner in that order
super town day 2 but depending on who the other is: pooky
??? pretty town but haven't read in eons: morning
spectating the game: lavender
probably scum by default: chara
scum: taylor, hectic

tanner belongs in between morning/pooky actually but i have read him more recently

I can accept that readslist. I have Chara at the top though

oh, thanks, i missed that on the first read. prism, u should for sure have chara up higher than "default scum," that doesn't even make sense.

chara hasn't been around much the most recent part of the phase but this phase has gone on too long so that's understandable. but in the earlier past of the phase chara was v town and u are just self-wifom to death here

don't pretend u aren't doing a lot of wifom. u aren't shouting it out loud but i can see it in ur heart

[CantHateAPuppy]

Why doesn't Hectic make sense as the Chara?

chara-hectic doesn't lolbus elements?

like that's genuinely as profound as my reads go right now

dont want to start second guessing reads this late in the phase

but this post just doesn't sit right w/ me RN. tanner, could u elaborate on this even a little? if not, can u explain what u don't like about the game that's making it hard to make a better read here?

this game is confusing. i have "The Townblocc" and then i have the confusing mess that is 4 people i thought/think are viable votes or that i would maybe vote. i'm grasping at straws, i don't know how to read hectic, i never did. fear is telling me he's tried to shitpush me multiple times, gut is telling me he's a townie. i don't know what else to tell you.

no, this is much better, thank u. glad i asked u for this.

[CantHateAPuppy]

chara absolutely does not deserve to be at the top,

their progression on taylor is extremely questionable

and their reads on me/hectic/tanner one notch below

beeboy revote+its followup was also sketchy given surrounding statements even if 95% of it lines up

i dont see how it's questionable and i dont' see how it's an important part of ur read on chara. aren't there more important points? chara hard bussed elements which u don't even seem to consider

[CantHateAPuppy]

I've also found their progression on me/catboi a little off, their progression on Hectic moreso but all of these are much more nebulous+somewhat plausible and I don't want to trace through again, it's someone else's job if Chara is in the 50/50 later

fine. we can argue about this tomorrow after we flip a few slots. but im going to hold u to this unless something surprising flips on us.

[CantHateAPuppy]

chara hard bussed elements which u don't even seem to consider

not really true if you look at their ISO

aggressive at start, forgets where their vote is and goes around elsewhere, eventually activity votes beeboy and doesn't press it at all later. the +town part would be not swapping to hectic w/ me or forgetting their vote.

eh, forget it, if i missed it the first time reading ur post that's subconscious telling me to ignore it. we'll hash this out tomorrow. i'll come prepared and i'll win that argument.

but u are using tooooooooo muuuuuuuuuuch wiiiiiiiiiiiiiifom on urself. toooooooooo muuuuuuuuuuch wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiifom

[CantHateAPuppy]

like i've accepted that at least one person has played incredibly well and is out of my reach here because hectic/tayl0r, while possible, doesn't quite seem right atm. if it's tayl0r/chara or tayl0r/hectic or hectic/chara go me but i would absolutely not be surprised to see something else.

this is what im talking about. tooooooooooo muuuuuuuuuuuch wiiiiiiiiiiiifom

tbh seeing it spelled out like this makes me think it's easier than we're making it. there is no deepwolf, otherwise elements/bee would not have gotten fought on D1. the town looking townies look town because town looks town. scum has to be in a slot that makes sense with elements getting fought. etc.

[CantHateAPuppy]

ok what's the easy solve then?

taylor/suji/hectic

[CantHateAPuppy]

not really clear what you mean by WIFOMing when I'm literally saying two different things: 1) I'm too tired to go back over things I've already done like twice each, with the bonus that I actually did the beeboy one again anyway without you even asking 2) I don't think I have the team right and my reads are offbase

(1) isn't WIFOM, and even if you think I'm lying like ??? at what point in this game have I been unable to back up something ever, even forgetting that I've already done these before
(2) is angling maybe but WIFOM isn't accurate? also have literally been saying this for like 3 days now

i mean going "it could be this, or not this, so it has to be this, so it must be not this". is this not a fair word to use here? b/c that's what u seem to be doing, rethinking things all the time.

i hope this is not my fault for bringing up chara just now, but at this point i think we've done too much overthinking. the fact that u've been doing this for 3 full time real life 24-hour periods is a good clue that it's time. i dont want to rush u or be mean or something, but tbh i think u need a little push rn.

[CantHateAPuppy]

not really clear what you mean by WIFOMing when I'm literally saying two different things: 1) I'm too tired to go back over things I've already done like twice each, with the bonus that I actually did the beeboy one again anyway without you even asking 2) I don't think I have the team right and my reads are offbase

(1) isn't WIFOM, and even if you think I'm lying like ??? at what point in this game have I been unable to back up something ever, even forgetting that I've already done these before
(2) is angling maybe but WIFOM isn't accurate? also have literally been saying this for like 3 days now

i mean going "it could be this, or not this, so it has to be this, so it must be not this". is this not a fair word to use here? b/c that's what u seem to be doing, rethinking things all the time.

i hope this is not my fault for bringing up chara just now, but at this point i think we've done too much overthinking. the fact that u've been doing this for 3 full time real life 24-hour periods is a good clue that it's time. i dont want to rush u or be mean or something, but tbh i think u need a little push rn.

like, we've been going back and forth for, what, 2 weeks now? and the fight pool we've ended up with is the same one we started with, it seems like to me.

im expressing what i mean all wrong. i don't want to have this argument. i don't want to have any arguments. i regretted bringing up the chara thing as soon as i saw u respond to it, because at this point it's just not helpful. but something about this game is a little high strung, and i think it's because we have been having all these discussions without voting, and i think it's not good for u either

[CantHateAPuppy]

i sound muuuuuuuuch meaner than i mean to

wait here and i'll dig up another picture of a puppy as a peace offering. this one is cuter than me!

[CantHateAPuppy]

you're really using suji for your read of my slot more than me?

whenever i talk to u it feels like im being dodged. i ask a question or two and get an answer and no follow-up, never get questions back. feels less like we're in the same game and more like we're sitting in the same waiting room.

i mean, no, i didn't forget that u were suji or something baka

[CantHateAPuppy]

i have had a ton of fun this week, don't get me wrong, but i want to live life again. i used to work out daily. i used to call my friends. lemme OUT

dude nice let's go hit the gym. it's leg day in the dog kennel, are u a bad enough dude to squat 2x BW?

[CantHateAPuppy]

Oh I never put my vote back

Okay this makes more sense now

HURT: Taylor

Taylor->Hectic->Lavender is basically my preference order here

ok, last argument i promise. after this we can sip protein shakes and do each other's nails

rn i want hectic more than taylor. a hectic flip is goint to tell us more i think. i could read taylor as one of those mid level townies who becomes bait and doesn't have the wim but is still town. hectic just confuses me and his flip will solve a lot of problems tbh

[CantHateAPuppy]

like when i say i threw in the towel i mean at least one person beat me and no amount of me reading this game w/o more flips is going to change that

shoot my shot and accept defeat+nightkill or come back locked and loaded with flip info

P-Edit: Puppy not realizing I also just want to end the day and move on

<3

[CantHateAPuppy]

also prism i want to talk about krazy

i know i just said i wanted to end the arguments, but i realized town progressed on this slot while i was afk or something, u have him as a top townread and i don't know what for. i was going to leave this for tomorrow but it dawns on me that u are most def the top scumkill and there's at least a 50-50 it's going to be u.

parenthetical. scum if u kill me instead i will appreciate it. this game is taking up too much time lmao. end parenthetical.

can u give me the quick tiktok length book version of what u're feeling about this slot

[CantHateAPuppy]

Krazy is probably the regular wolf who would much rather have me dead than Lav/Tayl0r now since he knows I still scumread his slot.

There's barely any progression there.

ok, hectic / krazy is the scumteam. this post seals it

[CantHateAPuppy]

It is 100% based on my read on redtea. I don't see the meta being wrong. It's something I thought about a lot, and just the thought of "Maybe I should doubt this" has repeatedly brought me back to the question "Then what

do

I have faith in this game?" It makes me think that I have to have faith in

something

this game, I can't just keep saying "oh god oh fuck what if they're just playing really well" on everything. My redtea read is the one thing that's kept me centered this game and if I'm going to bet on myself and my ability to read accurately, this is the one that's worth doing so.

I don't think that redtea comes out that confident as scum. I don't think they go aggressive on catboi like that if they decided to buddy. I think everything they did this game fits extremely well with how they played+evolved over the course of SIN. And yeah, that's the one thing in the game I am hardbetting on.

ok, thanks. i think i just decided ur wrong in the post before this one, but i will keep this in mind. if u get killed tonight and hectic isn't scum / chara flips somewhere we were expecting, i will respect ur read. if we both live to tomorrow and hectic flips scum here / is chara i will want to come back and discuss this more. can we make a promise of it?

a vague and kind of inconsistent but in my head it makes sense promise?

[CantHateAPuppy]

I disagree that Hectic is a better gamesolve flip than Taylor. Taylor flipping town still puts us in a pretty good position.

We know there's deepwolves about.

Hectic flipping town is disastrous and leaves Tayl0r still unresolved along with literally every other lurker slot. Almost every hardtown is also on that except MT so there's not even a good deepwolf indicator.

ok it turns out we don't agree on as much as i thought. i don't know whether to shout or cry

[CantHateAPuppy]

and deal

first day of day 3 though if i'm alive i'm busting out a bottle of wine at the realization i have to do all of this all over again because i hate myself

never mind. just tell me who u want and i will put aside last reservations. im all the way ready

[CantHateAPuppy]

Krazy's lines actually really bother me here in that learning more from Hectic-flip is complete hogwash, like I want to hear that argument fleshed out because that is the single biggest reason I refuse to vote the dude

Tbh I also don't think I get what you want to learn from a taylor flip

I see that fight as "we have a null lurk-ish slot and POE makes it somewhat likely"

Hectic has a lot more association s plus he's a non-lurker null who fits the POE

[CantHateAPuppy]

I don't want to confbias myself (this is what confbias means right) but the last page really makes sense viewed as a krazy / hectic last minute bus cred play now that taylor seems like the declared preference

[CantHateAPuppy]

Prediction: in like 5 minutes hectic and krazy will kiss and make up, and neither will really push the other, but it will SURE LOOK LIKE THEU WERE GOING TO

[CantHateAPuppy]

Prediction: in like 5 minutes hectic and krazy will kiss and make up, and neither will really push the other, but it will SURE LOOK LIKE THEU WERE GOING TO

I don't want to we'd myself too much to a hectic/krazy scumteam, but this is maybe the first scumteam that's made sense to me beyond just POE and that excites me a little, and getting excited a little excited me even more

[CantHateAPuppy]

Launchy lol, I was pushing to launch Krazy's slot the entire day phase, and kept trying even when people moved off. I only gave up when he didn't launch Lav at L-1. You're off the rails to think we could be partnered.

i was born off the rails. born on the highway. boooooorrrrrn on the hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiighwayyyy

[CantHateAPuppy]

puppy

we just votecounted

if i'm onboard we can kill hectic really quickly, and it's been made clear he's my second pick

krazy gambiting and pushing the slot still would be insanity

also hectic literally hardshoved the Krazy slot in 10 different ways to convince us to move on with the day

these are all facts (?) but im not sure what u're trying to say with them

i also think i would need to look back at hectic voting krazy to conclude that it was too hard to be a real bus

[CantHateAPuppy]

concur with 2787

like forget trolling his team with bad plays, hectic did his damndest to throw this game if he's scum with krazy. spent eons trying to discourage me from flipping it.

meh.

if either of them flips chara today im going after the other tomorrow, i still think that would be better than fighting lavender

[CantHateAPuppy]

are we just settling on taylor then?

[CantHateAPuppy]

HEAL: prism

im just registering this for myself so that i remember tomorrow that taylor was not my top choice. this isn't even really a serious suggestion to heal anymore, i just want a post to look back to tomorrow so i can remember where my head was today

[CantHateAPuppy]

mine?

rn hectic > krazy > taylor > lavender

if i was ignoring gamestate, i might want MT up in there. that slot has never really satisfied me and keeps flitting in and out. but at the same time i think im the only person confused by MT so i'll wait and see whenever it becomes important

pedit: @pooky

[CantHateAPuppy]

mine?

rn hectic > krazy > taylor > lavender

if i was ignoring gamestate, i might want MT up in there. that slot has never really satisfied me and keeps flitting in and out. but at the same time i think im the only person confused by MT so i'll wait and see whenever it becomes important

pedit: @pooky

what can i do to satisfy you ;(

i can never be satisfied. i'm insatiable. i'm the black hole at the bottom of the ocean sucking up all the water. i don't know why im like this.

[CantHateAPuppy]

Puppy,

What order is this in?

rn hectic > krazy > taylor > lavender

want more > want less

[CantHateAPuppy]

I think I'll need to reread Hectic again and make the call. But I'll take some time to relax and loosen up a bit, rather than take impulsive action in response to my own internal furor.

this is a good idea. please come back when you're ready and more confident. i know im excited to finally end the day, i think everyone else is, but at this point i would rather have you at your top than rush. i dont want to push forever on my scumreads if you're not seeing the same thing, and i'd rather know taht wen you're at your best. we've waited this long and we should want to get it right.

[CantHateAPuppy]

Emotional manipulation? I don't know what you're talking about. Anyway, this is a track that I think represents our friendship:

lmao you're not going to believe this because i accidentally closed tab while trying to take a screenshot, but the embedded video literally started playing me an ad for a viamix blender

[CantHateAPuppy]

> this is a video that represents our friendship
> A FUCKING BLENDER AD STARTS PLAYING

[CantHateAPuppy]

[CantHateAPuppy]

@prism

yes go take your time and then come back and make the decision to lunch somebody that isnt me because youve said that rereading will lead you to that conclusion. im not gonna do any solving, but i really want you to lunch this person correctly!

[CantHateAPuppy]

i took ur suggestion but it wasn't scum enough. can i add a mustache twirl?

[CantHateAPuppy]

I wanted to carry this joke a little further but it's late and I'm too tired to make it less mean spirited

Also my computer just crashed

Well hash this out tomorrow.

Pedit lol

[CantHateAPuppy]

Meh I still want hectic over taylor, but I'll take this if that's the only option left

[CantHateAPuppy]

checking in to say that i have awoken from my sleep

also friendly reminder that if there is no majority by deadline, town will literally just lose because scum will spare not-chara

if you have a green role pm (or are pretending to have it) pls vote k thx

Lmao what? When's deadline

[CantHateAPuppy]

Oh holy FUCK I missed that, Jesus Christ what a terrible rule

IF YOU ARE TOWN DROP WHAT YOU ARE DOING ASAP AND HAMMER TAYLOR THAT'S ONLY F-1

LAVENDER THAT MEANS YOU FOR THE LOVE OF GOD VOTE AND REMEMBER TO USE HURT TAGS

Good morning. Do you want me to hammer?

[CantHateAPuppy]

I don't get it. Why are we dependent on me to hammer

[CantHateAPuppy]

I didn't sleep very well FYI. I've been mad at someone

[CantHateAPuppy]

How do we autolose if I don't hammer

Sorry, not to be difficult, I just have bad voodoo about hammering. Its an old superstition because whenever I hammer I almost always mislaunch

I am here all day so I also want to catch up on what Iissed firsy

[CantHateAPuppy]

What?

[CantHateAPuppy]

That's a terrible rule

[CantHateAPuppy]

Damn wtf

I didn't even know that was a thing

Talk about uncommon rules huh

[CantHateAPuppy]

Ok, give me like half an hour to catch up and stuff, I forgot when deadline was and thought I'd have all Saturday for this game.

I know I've been the one saying all along that we should just lynch already but now that it's time to hammer I have stage fright

[CantHateAPuppy]

puppy why dont you do some solving instead of fluff and IIoA and just general active lurking?

I resent and resemble this remark

[CantHateAPuppy]

His progression on Puppy makes sense. His progression on Taylor does too. His progression on me is perfect. 1004 w/ beeboy is really good. The very end of the wagon happened pretty fast on beeboy but he definitely pounced on the readslist/lost comment from Elements, which isn't something that ever gets Elements back in the game as scum. He's got reason to buddy Morning, he's got reason to protect Lavender early for towncred if she flips, he has reason to frame Taylor, he's got reason to push Sujimichi through, too....but he's also got reason to do all of those as town

I still don't really get this but w/e. It's a waste of time.if.i try to convince us to switch to hectic now anyways right

[CantHateAPuppy]

great game all, really enjoyed this one even though the quant of subs toward the end made it feel like a different game and so not exact the same (prism come back!!!)

apologies again for the scum bus d1, lol. didn't want it to happen like that at all. said in dead/scum chat and still think so that if town had just tried to figure out why i had to bus like that the gaem would have played itself. (answer is that both my partners were away and i was too chicken to push a different wagon that hard)

[CantHateAPuppy]

no scum PT redactions

i said what i said and i think it makes for a fun endgame when people can see all the notes scum made in realtime... except that lots of the town when i was scum subbed out ;_;

[CantHateAPuppy]

i'll say it... i think krazy played a very good game. after working with 4 different teammates in 2 slots, i was a little exasperated and def ready to assume a loss. i wouldn't have given up per se, and i wouldn't have subbed out, but mentally i was already ready to accept a second scum lynch d2 and surrender on d3. krazy came in and redeemed the slot, did a decent job building up his own townreads and playing off the towncred people gave to redtea, and carried it as far as he could while racking up deaths.

personally i come from sites where any form of argument is accepted, so i don't see "i would have not taken the PM if it was a scum PM" as bannable or even all that bad... there, i said it. but i get why some peopl dont like it and im not going to argue about it. but when i hear "i wouldn't have taken the pm if scum," that's something town could say too so i just think it's meaningless

if krazy had stuck it to the end he might have deserved a scummy imo. but i don't want to make this comment all negative by going "what could ahve been"

[CantHateAPuppy]

Puppy!

In another life the cute animal alliance will triumph with love and peace :3

<3

[CantHateAPuppy]

You didn't exactly have the greatest rand ever.

when scum pt comes out u can see my shift in realtime... i think with even one active partner it would have been easy for me to build some light bussing on one partner and then go out without looking too sketch for it. things changed

the no kills were my idea and though i got the math wrong i guess it worked out. i woudl have no killed the 2nd night after the chara flip instead of the 1st night though. also think after the NK the 1st night, when ever1 assumed it was a mistake, it would have been better to kill again. could have gotten a lav kill the next day maybe, and the endgame was basically 3p lylo anyways... not sure, i guess it worked out for scum as played

krazy made v good clear picks, a lot of this game basically came down to scum feeling cornered and making weird decisions that town assumed had to mean something else

[CantHateAPuppy]

krazy made v good clear picks, a lot of this game basically came down to scum feeling cornered and making weird decisions that town assumed had to mean something else

like i killed catboi b/c he was townread and doing too much math to be stopped, not because of anything w/ redtea, but somehow lots assumed that redtea couldnt be scum b/c catboi had townread him

[CantHateAPuppy]

shout-outs:

prism: it was fun playing with u, u had fun energy, super sad to see u sub out, please come back / : (

morning tweet: thank u for not taking it too personal that i had to try to look like i was distancing u

tanner: super amused that i was scum w/ u again and that u weren't having it again. fun to see u again m8

pooky: it it cliche to use the word "lovely" to describe u? ur lovely pooky

hectic: thanks for inviting me, had a blast

nacho: u don't remember me but we played on alts years ago, sup

krazy: thanks for subbing in during a hard slot and not giving up, know u got banned but imo u saved the game and i appreciate that u didn't give up. i'd wanted to tbh but didn't want to say so

the worst: we weren't ever scum at the same time together but i was rooting for u the whole way

isis: thanks for hosting, this was a lot of fun. let's never do this again

everyone else: thanks for participating in a game that consumed a large part of two months and definitely made me feel a lot

[CantHateAPuppy]

i think with even one active partner it would have been easy for me to build some light bussing on one partner and then go out without looking too sketch for it.

why r u bussing bro

chara's job was to flip d1, so main job imo was to build up red herring associations for town to wifom post flip. or i could have lurked, but it's good imo for scum to post a lot and prevent town from cohering. tbh the opposite happened and it was the slow walking of d2 that stopped a coherent town from winning v earl

[CantHateAPuppy]

this was the first time i randed scum in a game without subbing in years, so thanks all one last time for making this such a super game to play and follow from the afterlife. i'll rememer u all in therapy