Mini Normal 2173 | Bending | Game Over

[Andresvmb]

I also still very much think Infinity is correct.

You mean you think infinity is the correct yeet today?

Yes.

[Andresvmb]

I also still very much think Infinity is correct. Some of Tayl0r’s reactions can easily come from Town. If you’re so convinced that Koba is Scum, the reaction around the Claim can start to make sense. At that stage, there was some pressure on Koba. The one Scum motivation Koba could have in revealing that information (that Marky Mark is PR) is if they think that they’re not going to survive the day, and they want to give their Scum buddies a heads up (since they can’t communicate over chat, and the information would not have been accessible to the entire Team otherwise, which could be crippling).

Though to be fair to Koba, they just needed soft confirmation that Marky Mark hadn’t received the message, and easily could have explained what would give it away during the Night when presumably they planned on who to send the message to. So that theory definitely doesn’t hold much weight under scrutiny.

[DrippingGoofball]

in the world where you apply that logic, infinity has much higher scum equity as they didnt even have a reason to out.

I strongly disagree. In a vacuum, if someone told me they were in a game and players acted the way they did in this game (assuming it was anonymous, meaning I wasn't told "names" but rather codes. A did this, B did that.. etc); I would have concluded the towniest of all claimants/outed slots is the one that claimed Detective after having been tricked to believe there was a soft-guilty on them.

We haven't heard from Mark yet (at least I haven't reached the point) so setting him aside. You and DGB had the worst actions (i.e. claims) and you should be ashamed if you are Town (and in your case it applies regardless of your alignment)

Sigh. I don’t agree with this.

DGB made it seem like they had what appeared to me to be a Cop check yes? At least we know Infinity interpreted it that way. If I’m on the opposite side of this (and btw, I actually do have a specific game where I was on the other side of this so you can see how I approached it), I would have immediately concluded DGB was Scum and voted them. No claim from me, nothing. I would have pushed DGB to commit to what kind of result, and immediately started yelling for their death. It’s either a horrible gambit (which is what it turned out in my case), or Scum. So the fact that Infinity (i) claimed, and (ii) even more strangely, threw out a TR to DGB, is an incredibly suspicious reaction.

That's a very good point.

[Andresvmb]

I also still very much think Infinity is correct.

You mean you think infinity is the correct yeet today?

Yes.

They’ve reacted suspiciously under pressure, have made some declarative statements I really don’t understand, and they really believe the idea that their Claim should make them close to Confirmed Town and immune from pressure. Outside of the fact that they’ve been pressuring Town slots repeatedly. I’m baffled.

[VP Baltar]

They’ve reacted suspiciously under pressure, have made some declarative statements I really don’t understand, and they really believe the idea that their Claim should make them close to Confirmed Town and immune from pressure. Outside of the fact that they’ve been pressuring Town slots repeatedly. I’m baffled.

I agree with all that and will say I am worried infinity's claim is so unprovable that we get two days down the line and he is still alive. (Basically, exactly what I did in our previous game together.)

[DrippingGoofball]

I could vote Infinity.

[Infinity 324]

DGB made it seem like they had what appeared to me to be a Cop check yes? At least we know Infinity interpreted it that way. If I’m on the opposite side of this (and btw, I actually do have a specific game where I was on the other side of this so you can see how I approached it), I would have immediately concluded DGB was Scum and voted them. No claim from me, nothing. I would have pushed DGB to commit to what kind of result, and immediately started yelling for their death. It’s either a horrible gambit (which is what it turned out in my case), or Scum. So the fact that Infinity (i) claimed, and (ii) even more strangely, threw out a TR to DGB, is an incredibly suspicious reaction.

When does scum ever guilty me in that situation? How the hell do I have the leverage to force a claim from

her

when

I

have a guilty on me?

[Andresvmb]

The dead player was a danger to

To whom? I don't quite follow what you are trying to say here (sorry!)

@mark whats 2x2+25-9?

20 I guess if we apply the conventional operator order. Why do you ask?

Will say, weird Koba didn't die after soft claiming power.

Pure WIFOM IMO - I don't see what the value is of bringing it up at this point in proceedings

VOTE: infinity

nice scummy early claim

Why is that scummy? - I'm not experienced with PR optimal plays but it seems like this is good for transparency (ie he's not waited for DGB to ellaborate and then claim something that fits with the detail). I'm not defending him either, I just think its NAI.

And btw, this is ALL the confirmation Scum!Koba needed for Marky Mark PR. The Scum Team would have obviously picked up on this, and no further discussion was needed. They could have invented some ridiculous reason to ask the question, and we would have never known.

[Andresvmb]

DGB made it seem like they had what appeared to me to be a Cop check yes? At least we know Infinity interpreted it that way. If I’m on the opposite side of this (and btw, I actually do have a specific game where I was on the other side of this so you can see how I approached it), I would have immediately concluded DGB was Scum and voted them. No claim from me, nothing. I would have pushed DGB to commit to what kind of result, and immediately started yelling for their death. It’s either a horrible gambit (which is what it turned out in my case), or Scum. So the fact that Infinity (i) claimed, and (ii) even more strangely, threw out a TR to DGB, is an incredibly suspicious reaction.

When does scum ever guilty me in that situation? How the hell do I have the leverage to force a claim from

her

when

I

have a guilty on me?

You’re not understanding the point. If someone has a fake guilty on you (which you would know based on your knowledge of your actual alignment), you must conclude that it’s either a Scum ploy of sorts, or a gambit. So you would have tried to ensure that you narrow down what kind of result first, or asked more carefully if they’re serious, and you would have pushed back hard on it. But you immediately concluded it was a reaction test (without confirmation), which tells me that you know that DGB is Town in that scenario, and fishing.

[Infinity 324]

There was a 0% chance it was a scum guilty on me imo. I figured it was a gunsmith result or a gambit. DGB didn't seem to be taking it back, so I assumed it was gunsmith and she was forcing a claim. Yes it was dumb to claim there, but that was my logic.

[Andresvmb]

And you’re right that Scum probably don’t come out beginning of D2 with a hard fake guilty. I can understand that part of it. But you didn’t push back on it much. You just clearly assumed it was coming from Town and then you coughed up a claim very quickly. And why TR DGB for the test? It lead to you revealing your Role. I would have clearly tried to make sure what it was before revealing any information that was damaging to the Town.

[Andresvmb]

The broader point is simply that instead of seeking clarity and pushing back, you sought to defuse by claiming after a few votes and survive. You would have seen me get quite aggravated if someone maintains a gambit like that against me to the point where I’m forced to claim, but you weren’t even there yet.

[Infinity 324]

Excuse me if I'm not behaving in the most rational manner if I have a guilty on me. When the reaction test was revealed, yeah I was pissed at DGB but I was more upset with myself tbh.

[Andresvmb]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: DGB

Koba wagon is going nowhere, though I very much still believe they're scum.

Koba has the most verified claim at this point, which they made under no real threat of yeet. Either you think they are terrible at playing, or they made a dumb move as town.

I feel like a real Koba shill at this point, but jesus! I don't really follow the Koba is scum logic here.

I agree with taylor that it was not a great play as scum or town. The claim was slightly town indicative but not enough to make them conf town or anything.

This interaction is Scummy too. Infinity immediately recognizes that VPB has a very valid point, but instead of fully conceding (and agreeing that Koba is Town), they leave an opening out there while moving on.

[Andresvmb]

Excuse me if I'm not behaving in the most rational manner if I have a guilty on me. When the reaction test was revealed, yeah I was pissed at DGB but I was more upset with myself tbh.

The point is that you didn’t respond from a Towny mindset, from what I can tell. If you *know* you’re Town, you would have never entertained DGB there until absolutely forced to. This is not the approach you took. This much is obvious to me.

[Infinity 324]

I guess what I'm saying is that I felt like I was forced to.

[Andresvmb]

I guess what I'm saying is that I felt like I was forced to.

If you really are Town, you’re never forced to do anything there. Because if that gambit actually results in your death for some reason, then it’s obvious that the Scum Team drove the whole thing. So if anything, there you let yourself die. Particularly since Detective isn’t particularly strong. At L-1, if you’re I don’t know Doctor, fine claim. But you never even got close. It doesn’t make sense to me.

[DrippingGoofball]

There was a 0% chance it was a scum guilty on me imo. I figured it was a gunsmith result or a gambit. DGB didn't seem to be taking it back, so I assumed it was gunsmith and she was forcing a claim. Yes it was dumb to claim there, but that was my logic.

This makes sense.

[Infinity 324]

There was a 0% chance it was a scum guilty on me imo. I figured it was a gunsmith result or a gambit. DGB didn't seem to be taking it back, so I assumed it was gunsmith and she was forcing a claim. Yes it was dumb to claim there, but that was my logic.

This makes sense.

I've explained this a million times though?

[Andresvmb]

Well I'm town so

I assume this is a reaction test, but lmk if you want me to claim

Like here. You immediately assumed it was a reaction test, and immediately offered to Claim. The fact that you never even considered that it could be a Scum gambit to out your role, and that you should be more defensive about it, I’ll never understand.

Anyway, I fully grant that this could be Town sub-optimal play as Koba mentioned, but I don’t know, I’m not seeing it.

[VP Baltar]

I mean it is weird infinity was saying at the time it was a reaction test (which if true, why would you ever claim???), but then is saying he assumed it was a true guilty.

Also, if you are town! infinity and make a collosal fuck up like that by claiming, why assume Koba is scum and not also town who fucked up?

[Infinity 324]

Once DGB didn't retract the claim I thought it was a gunsmith. And I thought koba was scummy for other reasons, not their play.

[Andresvmb]

I mean it is weird infinity was saying at the time it was a reaction test (which if true, why would you ever claim???), but then is saying he assumed it was a true guilty.

Also, if you are town! infinity and make a collosal fuck up like that by claiming, why assume Koba is scum and not also town who fucked up?

Except I can completely understand Koba’s logic.

[Tayl0r Swift]

isnt the correct play here to not kill infinity today and just have koba check infinity which will quasi-confirm both of them?

[Andresvmb]

Koba is Confirmed. The above is preposterous.