TENET - Game Over

[Hench Princesses]

No, Scorpia is not Hectic

[Bell]

Oh.

It was a serious request btw.
Just anything you think would help me read you correctly.

[Hench Princesses]

I think if you're still in doubt about my alignment after 1,000 posts, there's probably not much that I would say now that would make you more certain. I am working on a post but it's not for you exactly.

[Bell]

Reassurance actually works pretty well for me. Tbh.

[Hench Princesses]

Spoiler: From Posterity

So there's a number of ways of attacking reads in this game. This means there's lots of ways to think about the game, which can maybe be overwhelming.

Full Living Player List: Unwnd (Dunnstral), Spiffeh, Almost50, Bell, Brian Skies, PookyTheMagicalBear, Gypyx, superbowl9, Petapan, Deacon Blues, Dandelion Wine, midwaybear, Firebringer, Annie Edison, LadyLambdadelta, skitter30

Living Original Forwards: [Unwnd (Dunnstral), Spiffeh, Almost50, Bell, Brian Skies, PookyTheMagicalBear, Gypyx] at least 2 scum are confirmed in this pool
Living Original Inverted: [superbowl9, Petapan, Deacon Blues, Dandelion Wine, midwaybear, Firebringer, Annie Edison, LadyLambdadelta, skitter30] at least 2 scum are confirmed in this pool
SoN1 [Start of night 1] Forwards: [Dunn, Spiffeh, Annie, Brian, GX, A50, Bell] at least 1 scum is confirmed in this pool that killed Imperium, and that scum is either strongman or Bell is scum
SoN2 Forwards: [Brian, GX, Dunn, Spiffeh, Annie, Bell] at least 1 scum is confirmed in this pool, that killed Muffin

Current Forwards: skitter30, Annie Edison (notscience/The Bulge), Dunnstral unwnd
superbowl9, Bell, Brian Skies, Gypyx
Current Inverted: Almost50, PookyTheMagicalBear, Spiffeh, Petapan, Deacon Blues (fferyllt/borkjerfkin), Dandelion Wine (Cephrir/Cabd), midwaybear, Firebringer, Lady Lambdadelta

Flip orders:

Living Original Forwards: [Unwnd (Dunnstral), Spiffeh, Almost50, Bell, Brian Skies, PookyTheMagicalBear, Gypyx] at least 2 scum are confirmed in this pool
I would flip this list in the following pools: [A50 Pooky] Spiffeh [GX,Dunnstral,Brian] Bell if looking for the original scum in this timeline

A50 posts more random Austin powers memes as scum, he lacks paranoia about Annie Edison, and he accepted a turnstile that would deny himself tracker results. His play is mostly uninteresting and therefore scummy. He did do one interesting thing, which was combine a reads list off Brian and Annie's reads lists, but after the other issues he's a pretty high likelihood red flip.

Pooky's built almost his entire iso in the other thread around Firebringer which is weird and scummy.

Living Original Inverted: [superbowl9, Petapan, Deacon Blues, Dandelion Wine, midwaybear, Firebringer, Annie Edison, LadyLambdadelta, skitter30]
I would flip this list in the following pools: Firebringer, [skitter30,Annie Edison], LLD, SB9, [petapan, midwaybear] [Dandelion, Deacon]

SoN1 Forwards: [Dunn, Spiffeh, Annie, Brian, GX, A50, Bell]

Solving this night's kill is playing "find the strongman"

In terms of Strongman Likelihood I'd go Spiffeh, Annie, Brian, GX, A50, Dunn, Bell -- this is not a list of scumreads, more a list of how easily I'd see the roleclaim flipping strongman

Since A50 claimed a tracker result on Dunn night 1 that was also received by Annie, it would require an Annie+A50+Dunnstral scumteam for Dunnstral to be a scum strongman that killed imperium, so we can likely just rule that out. I believe Bell his claim.

I think multitasking tracker/strongman is unlikely, so I don't think A50 is likely strongman.

There are different reasons to argue for Spiffeh, Annie, Brian, or GX
-Annie was turnstiled in with probably at least 2 scum backing his turnstile, so it's not really that unreasonable to me for there to be a forwards strongman tracker receiver. I did think NS probably left scumrange at EoD1 when interacting with Titus but I'm not certain of this and I really didn't like NS's titus hammer or the AtE NS used in response to my pushes.
-Brian is a 1-shot second turnstile activator or something. I think Titus thought Brian was the most likely redflip in this timeline. I don't like his push on Bell today. But he's also seemed townie sometimes. I can see a strongman 1-shot turnstile activator if he's like, supposed to be the flavor of the Sator character himself or something, idk.
-GX claimed VT so it's not surprising people kinda want to PoE there. I argued he was town for dumbtelling Imperium as macho when they are confirmed not to be macho. That hasn't convinced several other people tho.
-Spiffeh has softed that he has power in the other timeline, but was okay not being turnstiled early on. I actually can see Spiffeh being a scum strongman pretty easily; he's been slow to hardclaim, his push A50 could have been s/s distancing or even s/t if I'm wrong on A50, his play has often been forgettable, Boon had Spiffeh as scum and Boon was scum with Spiffeh in the Boon vs Pooky game so he had very recent experience with scum spiffeh.

Overall I think solving for the strongman shot will be rather difficult though, especially since we can't actually do anything about spiffeh in this timeline and because there's just varying reasons to townread or suspect anyone in those 4 names to be the strongman.

SoN2 Forwards: [Brian, GX, Dunn, Spiffeh, Annie, Bell]
someone in this list of names killed muffin. the problem here is now that without the tracker result, if like, Dunn was just a multitasking scum neighborizer then he could easily drop a shot on muffin, so he's not as ruled out now. Aside from that I think if Spiffeh was like a 1-shot strongman then it'd make sense for him to do the kill and then purple room turnstile out. Mech on this night is weird.

Full Living Player List: Unwnd (Dunnstral), Spiffeh, Almost50, Bell, Brian Skies, PookyTheMagicalBear, Gypyx, superbowl9, Petapan, Deacon Blues, Dandelion Wine, midwaybear, Firebringer, Annie Edison, LadyLambdadelta, skitter30

Town at top, scum at bottom
Hard town:
Bell -- I just played vs scum bell, and this isn't scum bell. He's town, he's town doctor, you don't need to read him, if you ignore every other read you can probably count on this one

Muddled but more likely to be town:

Gypyx -- I think the macho towntell was good, his iso mostly just pushing Titus is bad. My towntell argument could be crap. Time will tell.

Brian -- Titus's top pick for scum, I still think his role is usually more likely to be town, don't like his push on Bell. Felt like some of his posts were too sassy to be scum but ehh.

Deacon and Dandelion -- Ceph feels pretty different from when I've seen him scum. Deacon has said several things that felt very tonally town. I trust that they're town more than I trust their reads, though. My recommendation is to think about these slots later if the game isn't lost by then, and I discourage you from just being inclined to blindly sheep them.

Dunn -- Everytime Dunn writes anything I feel like I'm staring into the face of death, listening to scum explain the most polite and effective way to lose the game for town. That being said unwnd's replace out was like, almost certainly town, and shelly's impression that unwnd's takes on the other thread's reads were also probably town. There's room for error here, and it almost would surprise me for both Dunn and Brian's roles to be town because generally 'has thing that lets you interact with other timeline' veers a little bit more toward bad guys in the movie. But flavor spec generally has not helped this game and has actually hurt. I kinda feel like just *off vibe* I should be voting Dunn actually, but he's a) never ever the strongman and b) very likely town for unwnd, even though his posts on their own make me feel like I'm talking to someone who is going to kill me 'later, when I'm no longer of use.'

Annie -- Still have more issues with this slot than most of the others in forwards, but it would still just surprise me to see the EoD1 NS flip scum, even though the Titus hammer feels scummy, the AtE feels scummy, the constant play around Deacon and Dandelion feels scummy, ehh.

Muddled reads:

midwaybear -- kinda like the tone of most of his posts for town, his solving isn't particularly whelming, nulltown, won't feel bad if he flips scum

Petapan -- has pushed a lot of slots, which means he's pushed a lot of misflipbait, and was probably involved in why things like S_S getting turnstiled happen. I thought him coming after GX after I fos'd GX at Eod2 and thread was locked and then dropping it later felt weird. I'm not impressed by LLD's push on this slot though and think it's a complicated read, not sure why people are saying obvtown or obvscum tbh.

LLD -- don't wanna talk about this read. Dead null though. (Also the reason this post exists)

SB9 -- didn't like his wallpost case on Gamma which occurred here -- viewtopic.php?p=12428936#p12428936 -- but later warmed up to his slot a little when he seemed to be trying to outcompete to see who could be more town about mech decisions and his push to turnstile skitter might have reflected a town POV. I didn't like him threatening to self-hammer vs. GX, that felt scummy. Muddled slot for me, although I've felt town there sometimes.

skitter -- skitter's role does indeed sound weird in conjunction with imperium + bell although it's not necessarily impossible with a scum strongman since doctor and strongman can cc each other from the watcher guilty.

Spiffeh -- I still liked his development on my slot, he's felt tonally town sometimes, but idk for some reason he feels like the most likely to be a strongman to me right now. So I kinda have more mechanical suspicions of this slot than tonal suspicions. Just based on how the game has gone, basically.

Likely scumflips:

Pooky -- seems to be building entire iso around firebringer, almost no reflection on reads, seems night and day from his townplay, the boon push was literally the towniest thing about this slot and that's really saying something
A50 -- As described above, his iso is unengaged and now half filled with austin powers memes so probably scum
Firebringer -- seems like obvious scum to me, I don't really get why anyone is townreading this slot, he has at no point cared about any of his pushes. I kinda liked at one point his thought process about skitter, but at this point given the timing of when he pushed skitter (early d1 and then d3 when numbers were screwy) I'd just as easily see fire/skitter being s/s -- playing very politically, I have more feelings here but don't want to go into more detail, the retracted cop claim is NAI but his solving is scummy

tl;dr?

Don't fucking flip bell

[Hench Princesses]

maybe midwaybear above dunn and annie actually? I just have never sat down and read his entire iso, so it's more every time I read his posts I think town but I haven't read all his posts

idk maybe doesn't matter when it's basically mathematically guaranteed that there is a scum inside my top 6

[Bell]

That’ll do for reassurance.

[Hench Princesses]

Bork I'm sorry for saying you were scumsiding.

[Hench Princesses]

I thought you were town when I thought your push on skitter mattered to you and when it became obvious it didn't there was nothing else in your iso that didn't make me think scum. I don't see how my read on you from 100 pages ago would matter anyway.

[Hench Princesses]

Also with six scum I thought I could just let you be scum since usually you're a very pleasant scum, I only need to observe you're scum now since my personal preferences of which scum to flip in what order matters less. I really would have enjoyed purple room shitposting with you knowing you're scum tbh

[Hench Princesses]

Even then I think I've had you in bottom 3 of every reads list for like... a while

[skitter30]

borkffery i just need to say that your approach to reading me / your approach to me this game literally makes no sense to me
like at alll

[skitter30]

like for a few weeks now ...

[skitter30]

i'm not sure it particularly makes you scum but i am utterly baffled

[skitter30]

I'll give ya a summary Skitter.

I think either the scum team sent you over here because they were sick of failing to be able to yeet you

and they felt like a TVT Bell/Skitter Cage match would be amazing.
We've both spent a significant portion of our time this game trying to keep our heads above water.
Part of what gives me pause is that, like me, you never really stopped trying to solve.
Though some of your positions in the other thread sucked imo. But I could say the same for almost every player in this game to one extent or another.
it would explain how fast you got thrown over here too.
I also, actually agree that from my understanding of LLD she is very much the kill scum first ask questions later type and yeeting you over is actually weird fmpov. However, I haven't read the other thread closely enough to say for certain that she hadn't spent a significant amount of time trying to kill you in that thread before giving up and hoping for better luck here.

Points against this explanation is that Gyphx hadn't taken a firm stance even the most recent post of his only implies that he thinks I'm town, if there was an indication that Dunnstrall planned to yeet you over me, I missed it. Brian's scum reading me and Sb9 is relatively on the fence. FMPOV it very much felt like they sent you over here to kill me, than the other way around and I had no idea that the cards were set up like that. I also don't know if LLD wouldn't know that, have missed it or I missed it that she hadn't or didnt recognize the game state over here being one in which I probably die here if they get yeeted.

There's the watcher/ 2 protectives/1 pseudo protective, I don't really think role blocker is pseudo protective or intended to be tbh. That does point to scum you. I also felt that it was strange that it didn't give YOU pause when I claimed doctor, but like I said maybe I missed it.

If I have to I guess I could read all your posts over there and make a better case(which in this case would merely be a more nuanced one and not necessarily more definitive).
When/where did you change your mind on my slot btw? I missed the heel turn when you changed course did you justify it better than your TR of me?

or you're just scum.

honestly at this point i think the bolded, i just put up too much of a fight (when i want to, at least)
i still don't understand why lld ships me over here 'because they can lim her' when there was no particular indication that that was particularly likely to happen. she was p damn close to having the votes over there and i'm not sure there's nearly as much over here

for you, i'm kinda like: i don't have nearly as much reason to townread you as i do for many, many other people in this thread, and since this game is teeming with scum if i don't have a good reason to townread you i'm of the opinion there's a decent chance you're just scum

there's only like 8 people in this thread and half of them i would be quite shocked if they were scum so i'm running out of places to look.
i'm not convinced you're the lim today but you're in the pool, if that makes sense

also, bell, what happens r.e. setup wise upon my townflip?

i'm also gonna go back to the larger case at some point cuz i want to pick it apart more

[skitter30]

I'm also fine with you taking your time and poking around. Even though you're immediately planting roots and engaging with the players you need for their votes rather than just scum hunting while taking an impersonal tone with me in comparison. This can make it harder to dislodge you whether scum or town, but it probably benefits us in the long run to let you and just put in the extra work to dislodge you after creating associations as either alignment. I doubt I live/don't get immediately killed next dp for the loss, but it might help me point the finger at a scum before the loss so I'm okay with that.

Maybe you'll have better luck rooting out the scum over here if you're town than I have. Do your best.

yes i like this idea. and while i do have reads over here i would appreciate a bit to just like ~get my bearings~ before i need to lay a vote down

[skitter30]

Oh.

It was a serious request btw.
Just anything you think would help me read you correctly.

bell i would give good money on hp being town here. they're significantly out of their scumrange and the fact that it's been a month and the game is shitty that they're still trying to solve is ++++++ town and i think scum!him would have run out of steam a while back given the game

[skitter30]

borkffery i just need to say that your approach to reading me / your approach to me this game literally makes no sense to me

i utterly don't know what to say to this and my layers are peeling away and revealing a defeated husk

so go ahead and lay on me why you think that if nothing else so i can adjust my approach in the future because i feel like the more i try the more turned around i get and the more people rail against my approach

-b

i can't really give super much detail because of [redacted]

but just like: what have you/dandelion been right abt this game? i don't mean this pejoratively or like trying to throw shade.
i mean very practically, what indicators do you have that makes you think the way you're approaching this game in a correct fashion? like right now do you think you're on the right track? if so, what makes you think that?

i can point to several different things that show me my view of the gamestate has been p on point for quite a while now. i know we're wrong, and i can tell you where we're wrong. i don't know exactly what the 'right' thing to do is rn, but i can point to several things that i think would muck things abt more than they currently are. and, well, very little that i've been said about the gamestate over the past few days has been

wrong

, so i don't have much reason to think i'm on the wrong track

right now

either. i feel like a lot of what you (collectively) have been trying to do have been off, so i'm struggling to understand why i should give much credence to your reads or understanding of what's going on rn

and like once again i've calmed down from a few days ago. i'm not trying to say this in an attacking / perjorative fashion. i just mean very practically if i have reason to believe i'm more on track than you are, i'm struggling to see why i should listen to you very much, and i want to try to get us on the same page because i think your slot is very probably town so it's better for us all to be on the same page than for us to be fighting with each other or for us to be pushing competing worldviews because we can't both be right

so i want to try to resolve the differences and figure out where we're drifting apart and talk it through and try to get things back on track, cuz i think if i can get you (i.e. borkffery) to agree with me, things probably get a bit better
(that is probably egocentric of me but whatever)

i'm not sure it particularly makes you scum but i am utterly baffled

at this point i'm not sure if i'm more worried about the scum saying we're worthless or the town saying we're worthless

i'm willing to engage w/ the latter post game on what went wrong

-b

i wasn't even trying to say the latter with my earlier post (i.e. the one from like five min ago). i just, like, don't get how you're approachign this at all

[skitter30]

like again, i'm past saying this perjoratively, i just want to try to get everyone that i think is town on the same page to try to fix this mess

[Hench Princesses]

Alright firecat, here we go then.

SCUM TO TOWN -- THE SHITPOSTY VERSION / VERSION WITH MOVIE SPOILERS possibly in the GIFS but I tried not to go overboard

FIRECAT

Spoiler:

That's right, FIRECAT is the LITTLE KID that *I THINK* is actually the BBEG of the movie sending weapons back in time

DUNNSTRAL (but not unwnd)

Spoiler:

WHO TF? it's KING HENRY the V? But he's come from the past to KILL US

A50

Spoiler:

That's right. A50 is THE RANDOM BRITISH GUY on the LEFT who no one remembers the name of

Pooky

Spoiler:

Pooky is RANDOM RUSSIAN GUY getting beaten up in a restaurant

Spiffeh

Spoiler:

I actually could find 0 images of the character but Spiffeh is VOLKOV in the movie

skitter

Spoiler:

skitter is the WIFE IN THE RED DRESS because idk she watches or something don't ask me

Superbowl9

Spoiler:

SB9 is actually a GIF of an action scene where CARS ARE FLIPPING OVER. What does this say about his alignment? I HAVE NO IDEA

Petapan

Spoiler:

Oh shit, but is he the TERMINATOR from Terminator 1 where he was a bad guy or Terminator 2 where he was a good guy? Or is he here just to murder everyone whether they're town or scum alike?

Midwaybear

Spoiler:

He's invisible! Wait where'd he go?! Oh wait it's JOHN CENAAAAAAAAAAA!

Annie Edison

Spoiler:

That's why this slot is so hard to read! It's not Kobra Kai, it's the DUDE FROM KUNG FURY!

Gypyx

Spoiler:

MARTY! We have to go BACK! to the FUTURE!

Brian Skies

Spoiler:

WTF? It's EDWARD FROM TWILIGHT? What's he doing in this movie... Ah shit he should be town but how can you be sure when he is SPARKLING in the SUNLIGHT?

Unwnd (but not Dunnstral)

Spoiler:

OMG IT'S KING HENRY V FROM THE PAST TO SAVE US!

Deacon and Wine

Spoiler:

PARTY ON DUDES

Bell

Spoiler:

Bell is the DOCTOR named

TENNANT

TENET and now that I've made that joke no one is allowed to flip him because it's TOO GOOD

He's also DANNFLOR in disguise

My drunkposting readslist is now complete, and FIRECAT your wish is GRANTED!

[Hench Princesses]

i know i'm like the fucking

you're beautiful and this is a beautiful post

[Bell]

I'm mildly incredulous that you don't have good reasons available to town read me after 950 posts, I find it more likely you just never iso'd me because we're in different threads.
I certainly haven't paid as much attention to the other thread as I would have liked.

I'm struggling to identify what you picked apart in my narrative jumble.

#6566: Unneeded I was going through a partial reread.

Could you clarify what you mean by 'what happens' set up wise on your town flip?

I'm tired.
I'm mildly confused at your meaning in regards to LLD sending you over here when you were more in danger over in the other thread from your pov.
If they sent you over here to be eliminated, but you feel the game state was such that your elimination was more likely in the first thread. But the scum team threw you out of that thread because they couldn't eliminate you.
But the reads over here were such that there was no guarantee of that while activating your ability.

Use your words bell!
Your position and comments are not clear and appear contradictory in regards to your own self-assessment of vulnerability in the two threads.

[skitter30]

@fferybork

ok, not to toot my own horn too much, but things that i've said before they've happened that ended up provably being right:

- fl was town
- titus was going to flip town
- there was going to be max 1 scum in titus/ss/pk
- the whole plan to rid the forwards thread of scum wasn't going to work and was going to be a wild goose chase and waste of time

all of these ended up being true.
so, to me, it looks my understanding of what's going on is fairly on point, and it's gotten a bit frustrating where i keep saying what's happening, it happens, nobody listens, we're in a shitshow a dayphase later, and i can't divert people off of doing silly things. whereas i'm watching you (collectively) push for things that i don't agree with, and they're not particularly noticeably helping town.

and, like, let's assume i'm kinda halfway decent at this game. maybe i can't assume this pl inherently agrees with that assumption cuz a lot of you haven't actually played with me. but it's a p well established fact among my generation of players that i'm one of the strongest active players of both alignments, and of the site overall rn. again, not to toot my own horn too much, but i'm trying to say that i'm actually halfway decent at this and i usually know what i'm talking abt.

i don't do it by necessarily having individually correct reads. what i do is read gamestates. i have a p good sense for what scum are doing at a particular moment, and how they're positioning themselves. i can usually get a decent shortlist of where scum are by looking at key moments in the game, figuring out how scum would be positioned, and then looking at people who had that positioning. that's not to say they're *all* scum, so much as scum is overwhelmingly in that group of players.

to me rn, the key things are (there are other key things, esp. in the forwards thread, but i'm not as familiar with them and can't analyze them as well):

1. the ss flip
2. the stranglehold your slot / dandelion has had on this game (i know you don't like hearing this but from my pov this is part of what's making this game so complicated)
3. the fact that n1 in inverted noraa's replaced slot died.

(also probalby the annie turnstile but it's far enough back that i don't have as good of a sense of what happened there anymore. going back post annie flip would help a lot).

i'll start with the third because it's the easiest (maybe i should have written these in some other order but whateaver)

scum simply don't make that kill if they don't feel super, super, super comfortable in the gamestate. they basically don't want the replacement to be a fresh pair of eyes who'll be like 'wait lol player X is just scum why aren't we voting them out' . so the third point indicates that scum are people who were comfortable with how the game was going, and didn't want anybody new to rock the boat too much. that means that there's a deepwolf / scum in the general townreads

i still strongly think that scum grab the ss misflip yesterday if they could: they're in a good spot. why not take the misflip when they can, and hasten endgame right along? like yes they can wait a day and have him be the next day's flip. sure, whatever. but they're in a good place. it's clear from the n1 kill they're feeling a bit cocky. nothing much happened day2 to much change their minds, and they can get the flip that day, so why not? that's why i keep going after lld - i think that scum would have tried to get it if they could

and for the fact that dandelion/you have been controlling a lot of the game - at least from my pov, it feels like a lot has gone down in the hoods that has been hidden (on purpose or not) from everyone else, and it has directed quite a lot of how later days has gone. in particular the spiffeh/sb9 turnstile. it still doesn't make sense to me honestly why there were so many machinations for that to have happened, or what benefit we particularly got out of it. to me, if cabd was town, i feel like we'd have seen more pro-town reads, conclusions, or mechanical outputs than we actually have. i'm aware that this is some level of bop, but he's been directing a lot of this game, and i just still don't see the +town purpose to a lot of what he's doing. maybe i'm just being blind and so i odn't see it. but like maybe you can help me here, by explaining how he's been approaching the game in a +town fashion? like what was he doing to concretely help solve the game in those hoods?

[skitter30]

I'm mildly incredulous that you don't have good reasons available to town read me after 950 posts, I find it more likely you just never iso'd me because we're in different threads.
I certainly haven't paid as much attention to the other thread as I would have liked.

I'm struggling to identify what you picked apart in my narrative jumble.

#6566: Unneeded I was going through a partial reread.

Could you clarify what you mean by 'what happens' set up wise on your town flip?

I'm tired.
I'm mildly confused at your meaning in regards to LLD sending you over here when you were more in danger over in the other thread from your pov.
If they sent you over here to be eliminated, but you feel the game state was such that your elimination was more likely in the first thread. But the scum team threw you out of that thread because they couldn't eliminate you.
But the reads over here were such that there was no guarantee of that while activating your ability.

Use your words bell!
Your position and comments are not clear and appear contradictory in regards to your own self-assessment of vulnerability in the two threads.

bell i wasn't here for the last month. i don't have as strong reads on a lot of this game as i do on my thread. like, no, i haven't read your iso, and i probably wont', because iso's this game are a monstrosity that i have little patience to deal with. i think i can probalby be more helpful interacting with people in the present

i don't fully understand what you're trying to say in the latter half of the post. can you try to rephrase? like i don't follow what yout hink is contradictory exactly

[skitter30]

Will grant that there was a lot of weird friction in getting to that point and a lot of people were driving the "remove scum" plan but I agree that it was a pipe dream.

ok we can call this another 'key moment' and look for scum in that group as well. i would bet quite a lot that there's scum in these people as well, it's a great way to muddle with things and waste time and if we're all focusing on that we're not focusing on finding them.

i was using those more to illustrate that i think i've been p on point for most of the game. the later parts of the post is where i think we need to concentrate on now