TM 2021 - Black Flag Nightless

[Super]

Johnny you say everyone is down to elim Autumn??? huh? it's literally just Mena and I right now

[Menalque]

Infin - got that LHF property a bit. Seems like everyone's down to lim. Would rather not vote

Run me through how this is in any way true when there are 2.5 slots willing to vote infinity in the entire PL

[Autumn Leaves]

VOTE: flopz let's try this

@Super my SR on you isn't very confident tbh

[Menalque]

Johnny you say everyone is down to elim Autumn??? huh? it's literally just Mena and I right now

God I fuckin love that you’re here

[Super]

@Koba, if you're just gonna vote me after mena flips town I want you to vote me today so you can at least sheep shady and spf's reads afterwards

[JohnnyFarrar]

I mean it seems that way from what I remember. Maybe y'all are just loud

[Firebringer]

i want to see who jumps here
VOTE: Flopz

[DkKoba]

I'll vote it to hammer it since its in my poe but id rather get my top scumread first.

[DkKoba]

scumreads*

[DkKoba]

consider my vote there in spirit

[Super]

Johnny where did your progression on your read on me come from? my partner just searched my name in your iso and you were tring me and now your read is like "would vote super"

jess thinks your progression was basically "super is town, super is def town, is super doing anything scummy? this one thing kinda bothers me from super, I'm cool with voting super"

[lilith2013]

the same could be said for Johnny though, right? what's your read on Johnny?

Flopz is in my PoE and honestly could see them partnered with Autumn but this is a hot take that has no backing and I'd need to ISO the slots interactions

Ok if you need it spelled out, the difference is I’ve been baiting a flopz wagon since Monday and have gotten nothing, which is crazy because (if flopz is town) I set up a miselim for scum on a silver platter and nobody cared

I have intel that say this is probably just town!flopz, which is just like, disappointing and incongruous with my previous read of the gamestate which is why I went down to 0 townreads

you/me/koba all voting flopz in short succession - this should contain at least 2 town
I think the fact that no one else joined means that scum already had plans in motion for who they wanted to be the D1 elim and it wasn’t flopz.

Unfortunately the timing makes it kind of difficult to determine what the scumplan is/was, because in the same time frame, super started pushing infinity, mena replaced in, and we tried to wagon flopz. - is it that scum knew mena was going to replace into their partner slot and so were prepping to push {infinity??}? is it that scum knew mena was replacing into a townslot and wanted him dead before he could do damage? is it that super and her scum team had already decided on an infinity push and didn’t want to deviate from the plan?

[lilith2013]

why did yall pick now of all times to vote flopz when I was trying to wagon them yesterday

[Super]

I don't want Flopz

[Autumn Leaves]

why did yall pick now of all times to vote flopz when I was trying to wagon them yesterday

I, uh

I changed my mind

[DkKoba]

VOTE: flopz

[DkKoba]

I don't want Flopz

Why i changed my mind ^

[Super]

Johnny you say everyone is down to elim Autumn??? huh? it's literally just Mena and I right now

God I fuckin love that you’re here

what do you think of Johnny? their post was so bad idk whether they're bad town or scummy as fuck

[Super]

I don't want Flopz

Why i changed my mind ^

lol the way Flopz and I talking last night would make you see we are never partnered but ok koba nice solving!!!!!!!

maybe if i tr autumn youll vote them...

[chennisden]

It is

incredibly

unpleasant to be in a game where everyone has this attitude of “I’m not talking to unless you agree with me that x is scum,” “if you vote x then you’re scum,” “if you dare to not agree with me then you’re scum and I’m not listening to you.” This is incredibly unproductive. I’m here because I want to figure things out as a TEAM. If everyone has this attitude then we get NOTHING done and guess what? mafia have already won because no one was willing to talk and we had no cohesion.

This

[Super]

anyways I'm going now will be back tonight. I still want an Autumn vote at this point in the game unless Autumn does something incredibly towny to sway me otherwise

[chennisden]

lets just say i think menalque is town but also id be surprised if he was

this is such a fence sitty post like wtf? you think mena is town but would be surprised if he was????
what
is
this

there's a very simple explanation for the second half: the "omg im so frustrated with town just kill me/super and listen to the other after we die" shit is so anti-town I'd be surprised if he were

I'm also going to say the same to you

Stop raging at town and try to play the game or we are going to LOSE and we are going to DESERVE IT.

[Autumn Leaves]

@chenn, lilith, koba What are your PoEs looking like?

[Menalque]

@mena I think it bears repeating that I'm working probably 12-15 hour days 6 days a week right now and have zero mental energy to parse anything like what you and infinity posted at each other today. I will get to it when I have time/brainpower. once I feel comfortable actually being in a place in this game I will, like, put myself on a wagon or add my momentum somewhere. telling me to blindly sheep isn't going to convince me to do anything. sorry if you feel frustrated but like that is not who I am. I'll stop there.

@auro see above. no.

for what it's worth I have been working on multiple theories of why this game is turning out the way it is but again, minimal brainpower available.

actually, no, I think this is also worth saying:

you've just told me that I'm not someone you can successfully work with but tbh I feel like you've just expected me to say "okay!" and cave and do whatever you want - and you're more interested in making what

you

want happen than in actually working together. and that's representative of your entire attitude this game. you're not the town leader just because you said so. if you actually want me/people to work with you then you can't demand everyone obey and expect that we will.

Okay, so I think there are two things I’d like to address here regarding you @lili

Firstly, the frustration. The post I wanted to make could basically have been summed up as “I’m finding this game very frustrating because I think there is obvscum present, I think I’ve tried to be reasonable and to explain why, I’ve checked that I’m not being biased by running it past my team who also think infinity is just terrible terrible terrible this game, and nobody will support my push on scum despite the reasons for /not/ doing so being incredibly weak — added to this, I think I’ve been very towny, I don’t think anything I’m doing makes much sense for me to do as scum unless you think my scumgame is literally purely bluffing (which it’s demonstrably not from previous examples) and if I were scum there are almost certainly paths of less resistance for me to take”.

I know you haven’t really been able to get into the game, and that’s partly why I’m frustrated — it felt like you were being resistant to TRing me for reasons that I don’t get, and on top of that you weren’t willing to give me a chance by sheeping me even to the point of being the third vote on a wagon I was and am very confident is on scum. Generally, when I want people to work with me, that doesn’t mean I want to be blind sheeped — but when I’m actively asking someone to help me apply pressure somewhere, they’re not voting elsewhere, and they’re saying they think X is scummy then I find it very frustrating when I don’t get material support. Especially when I was attempting to offer you a deal in the form of backing flopz tomorrow if you helped me with infinity today.

I don’t think I just expect people to obey when I say something. But I do think I’ve given strong reasons for why infinity is scum, nobody has given a good refutation of those reasons, nobody is willing to vote him despite that, and I think that the lack of ability for him to pick up votes is also very scum!indicative given that if only 2 town can not identify scum (and I’m confident that we have one who is unable to do so, aka koba) then only one other town needs to be wrong, provided scum won’t bus, and it becomes impossible to elim scum.

to try to collect some of my thoughts into coherent sentences:

I don’t think it’s fair for mena to take potshots at people who aren’t doing what he wants. I saw he apologized but I feel like his post was supposed to make me feel guilty that I wasn’t trying hard enough to please him or something. I really dislike feeling guilt tripped.

I wanted to address this separately — it wasn’t an attempt to make you guilty. It was a very earnest frustration which I think I’ve explained the reasons for above. I’m still finding it annoying, but my intention wasn’t to make you feel bad or to manipulate you into supporting what I want. I wouldn’t do that, and I’m sorry you think I would. I’d yell at you maybe, if I was scum and wanted to get you to do a thing, but I wouldn’t try to guilt you into it. I’m aware you probably can’t trust this but I’ll repeat it postgame, guilt is not my style.

[chennisden]

@chenn, lilith, koba What are your PoEs looking like?

Menalque Johnny Auro at this point