TM 2021 - Black Flag Nightless

[Shirou]

English isn't my native language. I may be missing some context here, I don't know.

I don't understand math's interpretation.

I kinda do, but at the same time not really.

I didn't mean "Take a look" literally, isn't "take a look" contextually similar to "if you want an example" or something?

But again, english isn't my native language.

[Menalque]

Just w/ no kill

[Menalque]

Math’s interpretations all game have been bizarre which is why I started moving scum there

[lilith2013]

for context, the only other time I’ve played with math, I was town and he was scum, and I felt this

exact

same frustration of like... math deliberately misunderstanding everything and blowing up these arguments that didn’t even make sense

[lilith2013]

oh idk my other nightless game had no night (ps no break sucked)

[Autumn Leaves]

Yeah I think math misread your wording shirou

[Menalque]

Hey on a scale of 1 to 10 how good is Shirou’s scum play
1 being conf guilty
10 being my scum game
(I consider myself excellent scum shit town)

Multiple people are saying this in thread and I kinda wanna see just how good compared to me and then compare that to reads of me

Normally I wouldn’t but this seems relevant

If math is scum can someone make this into a new version of the scumastina video that reck created

[Shirou]

for context, the only other time I’ve played with math, I was town and he was scum, and I felt this

exact

same frustration of like... math deliberately misunderstanding everything and blowing up these arguments that didn’t even make sense

yeah this was my experience in the wolves game as well, that's why I pointed out that I personally don't like when he sees to be deliberately saying unrealistic things, but contrary to you I don't really have that much of a bad impression on his (what I assume is) misinterpretation of what I said.

Saying it "stinks" is kinda in bad-faith but at the moment I don't have any deep feelings about it.

[chennisden]

Oh I thought we had a night phase

We have a NON GAME BREAK phase

[lilith2013]

for context, the only other time I’ve played with math, I was town and he was scum, and I felt this

exact

same frustration of like... math deliberately misunderstanding everything and blowing up these arguments that didn’t even make sense

yeah this was my experience in the wolves game as well, that's why I pointed out that I personally don't like when he sees to be deliberately saying unrealistic things, but contrary to you I don't really have that much of a bad impression on his (what I assume is) misinterpretation of what I said.

Saying it "stinks" is kinda in bad-faith but at the moment I don't have any deep feelings about it.

it feels like it applies to this game as a whole though, like he’s just arguing about anything and everything for the sake of arguing, even when it’s not relevant to alignment

[Autumn Leaves]

I really don't see how I'm engaging you in bad faith here, your starting point was "I don't use meta at all" until you had a large enough sample size to get consistent results. Am I misinterpreting that?

@Shirou

[Autumn Leaves]

it feels like it applies to this game as a whole though, like he’s just arguing about anything and everything for the sake of arguing, even when it’s not relevant to alignment

Pretty sure this is NAI

[lilith2013]

I’m still happy with a me/mena/joqiza/shirou townbloc

[Shirou]

I'm kinda slightly raising my eyebrow on the fact that suddenly there's a rise on "scum!Shiro" stocks going on here, but I dunno?

It feels a bit cheap to think that the exact scum team is targeting me now or something, there's probably a simpler explanation...maybe?

I want to see Johnny flip first before proceeding though

[Shirou]

I really don't see how I'm engaging you in bad faith here, your starting point was "I don't use meta at all" until you had a large enough sample size to get consistent results. Am I misinterpreting that?

@Shirou

Sorry, it must be confusing to you and I don't want to derail this to a "Shirou Ted Talk" thread, but I do notice certain habits people do in their games, but I don't really base my reads on them fundamentally on that.

For example, even if I was to scum read Math here, my main reason would be the lack of logic in saying that my slot "stinks" because I...recommended people to look on a past scum game (which is also a misinterpretation).

The fact that this act itself feels similar to what he once did as scum is secondary to my read.

Most of the time I only accept meta as a supportive/auxiliary reason for a read, but not the main bulk, but there's many exceptions.

I did read Norwe out of pure meta in my past games with him for example, both my reads were correct, I'm human after all, I've a general philosophy but there's many cases where I'll give an exception to something if I see fit.

Humans aren't as logical defined beings as we would like to think, sometimes I'll just consider meta because I find relevant contrary to most cases.

I've already talked about my opinions on meta in multiple games, I can't exactly link them to you if you ever feel interested, but if you do feel interested in searching up, you'll find it in case you think I'm lying here (only a recommendation, not saying for anyone to go look for it).

[Autumn Leaves]

@Mena Since you admit you can't trust your read on shirou, I suggest you trust your read on fire

PEdit: ok, I believe you

[Shirou]

My final argument isn't that meta is bad or anything, the arguably best player in this site, Elli, did mainly use meta.

My take is that it's very common for people to misunderstand meta, and draw conclusions which are untrue, which also causes more drawbacks than benefits.

Properly done meta is very strong, but if you compare the amount of work that a meta player like Elli do, and the average we usually do while looking at meta, it's like comparing cooper to diamond. It makes no sense.

There's way too many things to consider to take meta at face value in most cases, and it can hurt you more than help if you draw wrong conclusions from it.

It's very very easily to draw wrong conclusions from bad meta, regardless of the sample size, for example.

[Autumn Leaves]

I generally use meta to either check someone's scumrange, or to get an intuitive sense for how someone plays, I think hard-and-fast tells are unreliable whether you use meta or not.

[Shirou]

Right, only the only person here is chenn who fits that description and i really don’t want chenn in the townbloc

I'm very aware of Chenn being a good scum player but I can't help but think he's the best pick out of the rest of the players.

Maybe I could try to consider other options more but I just think Chenn posting is solid even if tonally it's not towny.

He consistently pointed out the problems town was having in the gamestate, he actively played more pro-town than any other player in early game in my view.

It doesn't make him town, but I do have a bit of a soft spot for him here, because even if he's scum he seems to deserve the win more than the other options (again, my opinion).

[Shirou]

I guess I should stop defending Chen so much though just in case people misinterpret it as me trying to fit him into the consensus townblock

if people don't want him there out of cautious, I won't fight, I'm not confident enough on it to try to override other people opinions. It's mostly my gut.

[Menalque]

@Mena Since you admit you can't trust your read on shirou, I suggest you trust your read on fire

What, you mean my TR?

[Shirou]

The more I read Koba the less sure I'm the slot is necessarily scum and not just town doing questionable things (even if Super is scum), but at the same time PoE dictates I should look at the slot either way hm...

[Autumn Leaves]

@Mena Since you admit you can't trust your read on shirou, I suggest you trust your read on fire

What, you mean my TR?

Forgot you changed your read. Though, first instincts are often pretty accurate

[Shirou]

Leafy you don't wanna make enemies with town!super 0;)

progresses to:

I'm incredibly suspicious of Infinity after today and I finally feel like I have a push I am confident enough on to attack since I was fairly stuck on my reads the last few days.

You were aiming threats at people for antagonizing you, and looking back, the progression from 1337 -> 1443 feels weird: Leafy had already stated his intuitive suspicion of you just before 1337... and you wanted to converse with him more then but then disproportionately respond in 1443? How come your reaction in 1443 wasn't immediate?

VOTE: Super

I kinda like this post, not a lot but still

Maybe I shared reads too early, who knows

[lilith2013]

infinity didn’t you think fb was town?