Mini Normal 2191 | Endgame

[Sirius9121]

Day 2 ends in (expired on 2021-02-06 08:12:00)
*Deadline has been extended by request*

New

:
Day 2 ends in (expired on 2021-02-06 11:08:00)

[Umlaut]

So, that's... an extension of two hours and 56 minutes?

Never change, Sirius.

[clidd]

Well, that's a lot of setup spec.

I got what was discussed, but it didn't help me in the sense of reads.

I still need to see from Sam some impression that leads me to believe that Maduisha is scum, in addition to the possible mechanical aspect.

And in relation to Cabd, I believe he has more to say, besides the setup organization.

[clidd]

In particular, I'm someone more oriented towards reads/impressions than mechanics.

So I kind of need to understand if there is any indication that a player is scum other than "his role is false".

[clidd]

Something like "hey, look at this post" or "scummy behavior in posts x, y and z" or even "scum agenda, positioning here, there and etc".

If you know what I mean.

[clidd]

I'm VT, btw, Sam.

Although it may have been evident from the way I played until now.

[clidd]

And I know that understanding the setup can be beneficial if done correctly, so I don't want to discourage town from continuing to give their opinion on this topic, but I don't think I will be of much help.

[clidd]

I mean, idk if without a doctor the setup would make more sense or not. My head stills on the investigative thing (Cabd/Fuzzy).

The claim that it's more "ok" for me rn is Umlaut, both mechanically and individually (which is disregarding the claim), so I intend to discuss the issue above on the hood before taking a stance.

[Maduisha]

Welcome to the game, Samantha! Do you have some spare, ahem, Mora that I could borrow? (I'm sorry.)

ok hi I'm caught up

There is no way the setup has a cop

and

a doctor

and

scum didn't block or kill you last night. I'd sooner believe a second investigative than I would that.

That was my mindset as I was reading the end of day 1; I knew right away they were lying about joat, and my cynicism made me see it through the lens of them excusing mafia choosing someone else to kill. The counter argument to that is that they have to survive more than just that night and they claimed regular cop now, but then that "why would I do that?" argument can also be used as a shield by mafia. The nightkill pool was always going to be one of cabd/clidd/bendover based on everyone's station at the end of that day.

I'm glad bendover was nked though because that makes this day a lot simpler

there's 7 people alive and everyone is roleclaimed, and since I know I'm town the only logical thing to do today is to VOTE: maduisha

process of elimination should make tomorrow simple too

I can't blame you for the PoE vote, that's a normal thing to do. What you are trying to say is with the rest of your message is that you think Cabd is scum through intuition and that the remaining one is me through PoE, correct? (I didn't get much sleep last night, sorry if I'm misunderstanding).

[Maduisha]

Right now what is in my head is that we're actually better off eliminating outside of [Cabd, Max], because if Cabd really is town, they don't want to leave Cabd alive to get another clear/possibly a guilty. But with a doctor around (assuming Max to be town too), they probably have to shoot Max before they can get to Cabd at all (if we can convince Max to protect Cabd). If they shoot Max, we have one more turn of Cabd investigation. So, I believe Max's slot will sort itself during the night phase, if we trust that Cabd is town.

I guess I'm really trying to seriously avoid considering scum!Cabd scenario for the sake of my sanity, the way he claimed is just not scum in my mind. I haven't had much sleep, so my logic might not be too good right now. Someone please let me know if it makes sense to leave both of them alone for today, I think it's a good move, but I understand it relies heavily in trusting Cabd is town and I understand that might be controversial for others that don't share my view on his moves during D1.

[clidd]

I'm not sure why you think Cabd wouldn't do that as scum. He won a game with 4/5 scums without losing a single partner (a clean win). I would share your view if I was underestimating his ability as scum (which is not the case).

Regarding leaving the two investigators alive, assuming there is a scum between them, and making Max (assuming his claim is true) target Cabd, it will basically make the scumteam kill me to keep the atmosphere of doubt about the claims on D3 (where it will be worse to solve, since it will be elo/lylo and town can't miss). Scum!Cabd can just fake-guilty then on someone (probably Max) and that's it.

Not saying that Cabd is scum, but ignoring/not solving both cop claims today (and Max's claim), is not a good play imo.

[Cabd]

He won a game with 4/5 scums without losing a single partner (a clean win).

If we're BOPing me, let's note that it was SIX scum and a better than perfect win because we convinced one townie to suicide by feeding himself to the wood chipper as well.

[Maduisha]

I'm not sure why you think Cabd wouldn't do that as scum. He won a game with 4/5 scums without losing a single partner (a clean win). I would share your view if I was underestimating his ability as scum (which is not the case).

Regarding leaving the two investigators alive, assuming there is a scum between them, and making Max (assuming his claim is true) target Cabd, it will basically make the scumteam kill me to keep the atmosphere of doubt about the claims on D3 (where it will be worse to solve, since it will be elo/lylo and town can't miss). Scum!Cabd can just fake-guilty then on someone (probably Max) and that's it.

Not saying that Cabd is scum, but ignoring/not solving both cop claims today (and Max's claim), is not a good play imo.

I was proposing not eliminating Maxwell or Cabd. I'm still okay eliminating Fuzzy.

[Cabd]

Is this the part where I get to wax poetic about how scumcabd approaches games?

This is like my second favorite part of mafia, the number one being letting ffery or somebody else who shares my playstyles wax poetic about my scumproaches.

[Maduisha]

I'm not sure why you think Cabd wouldn't do that as scum. He won a game with 4/5 scums without losing a single partner (a clean win). I would share your view if I was underestimating his ability as scum (which is not the case).

I'm not underestimating scum!Cabd, I'm not saying he wouldn't "dare" to do that, as I haven't played with him before. I'm just still thinking it's an illogical step for scum to take.

I might be eating my words in the postgame, but I really believe it makes no sense from scum perspective.

[maxwell]

Right now what is in my head is that we're actually better off eliminating outside of [Cabd, Max], because if Cabd really is town, they don't want to leave Cabd alive to get another clear/possibly a guilty. But with a doctor around (assuming Max to be town too), they probably have to shoot Max before they can get to Cabd at all (if we can convince Max to protect Cabd). If they shoot Max, we have one more turn of Cabd investigation. So, I believe Max's slot will sort itself during the night phase, if we trust that Cabd is town.

I guess I'm really trying to seriously avoid considering scum!Cabd scenario for the sake of my sanity, the way he claimed is just not scum in my mind. I haven't had much sleep, so my logic might not be too good right now. Someone please let me know if it makes sense to leave both of them alone for today, I think it's a good move, but I understand it relies heavily in trusting Cabd is town and I understand that might be controversial for others that don't share my view on his moves during D1.

This just comes across as visibly fencesitting. Both of us are quite convinced the other is scum, and you're talking about letting night actions resolve us instead of just using the elimination, ignoring completely the scenario where one of us is scum and you're faced with a 50/50 tomorrow, with nothing learned from it.

Do you actually, truly believe we are both town? Then who is the scum team, in your opinion?

[Maduisha]

Right now what is in my head is that we're actually better off eliminating outside of [Cabd, Max], because if Cabd really is town, they don't want to leave Cabd alive to get another clear/possibly a guilty. But with a doctor around (assuming Max to be town too), they probably have to shoot Max before they can get to Cabd at all (if we can convince Max to protect Cabd). If they shoot Max, we have one more turn of Cabd investigation. So, I believe Max's slot will sort itself during the night phase, if we trust that Cabd is town.

I guess I'm really trying to seriously avoid considering scum!Cabd scenario for the sake of my sanity, the way he claimed is just not scum in my mind. I haven't had much sleep, so my logic might not be too good right now. Someone please let me know if it makes sense to leave both of them alone for today, I think it's a good move, but I understand it relies heavily in trusting Cabd is town and I understand that might be controversial for others that don't share my view on his moves during D1.

This just comes across as visibly fencesitting. Both of us are quite convinced the other is scum, and you're talking about letting night actions resolve us instead of just using the elimination, ignoring completely the scenario where one of us is scum and you're faced with a 50/50 tomorrow, with nothing learned from it.

Do you actually, truly believe we are both town? Then who is the scum team, in your opinion?

What's fence sitting about anything I said? I assumed both town for the sake of the example. I don't actually know.

From my point of view, Cabd and Clidd are strongly town, and I firmly believe Fuzzy's role belongs more in a scum side than town, so that's where I want to vote today. I proposed this because I believe information could be gained if both Cabd and you are left alone, unless Cabd is scum and outs a fake guilty. But I strongly believe he's not.

So, from my point of view the scum team is Fuzzy + ???. And the empty space is someone that is fake claiming, or the newest replacement. As I don't have any leads so far on the partner, and people want to eliminate one of the claimed PR to sort stuff out, I'd rather eliminate the "lesser cop" if we truly were to be wrong about the NK. I understand why other people would not share my view, but I don't understand why are you calling me out for fencesitting.

[maxwell]

Just because you

believe

it doesn't make it so, pretty sure Neapolitans are townsided more often than not and his play pretty clearl doesn't make sense from a scum perspective.

So, from my point of view the scum team is Fuzzy + ???. And the empty space is someone that is fake claiming, or the newest replacement. As I don't have any leads so far on the partner, and people want to eliminate one of the claimed PR to sort stuff out, I'd rather eliminate the "lesser cop" if we truly were to be wrong about the NK. I understand why other people would not share my view, but I don't understand why are you calling me out for fencesitting.

There are only 7 people left alive, you're flagrantly avoiding trying to scumhunt or make a conclusion here. It should not be hard to take some sort of stance, at all. Are you seriously proposing that fuzzy and nepenthe's slot are teamed? He is voting them. His response to me pushing on Cabd was to say something to the effect of, "I dont want to vote a cop, let's vote nepenthe". You realize from his position this would be bussing into autoloss? There's absolutely no way a rational player could actually think fuzzy and nepenthe are teamed here.

[Maduisha]

Just because you

believe

it doesn't make it so, pretty sure Neapolitans are townsided more often than not and his play pretty clearl doesn't make sense from a scum perspective.

So, from my point of view the scum team is Fuzzy + ???. And the empty space is someone that is fake claiming, or the newest replacement. As I don't have any leads so far on the partner, and people want to eliminate one of the claimed PR to sort stuff out, I'd rather eliminate the "lesser cop" if we truly were to be wrong about the NK. I understand why other people would not share my view, but I don't understand why are you calling me out for fencesitting.

There are only 7 people left alive, you're flagrantly avoiding trying to scumhunt or make a conclusion here. It should not be hard to take some sort of stance, at all. Are you seriously proposing that fuzzy and nepenthe's slot are teamed? He is voting them. His response to me pushing on Cabd was to say something to the effect of, "I dont want to vote a cop, let's vote nepenthe". You realize from his position this would be bussing into autoloss? There's absolutely no way a rational player could actually think fuzzy and nepenthe are teamed here.

No, I'm not say Samantha *has* to be scum, I'm saying she could be. Umlaut could be, you could be as well. Since your slot can be understood through other means, I thought it'd make sense to eliminate Fuzzy and then look into Umlaut and Samantha. I thought Umlaut was pretty towny, but apparently his role is not like a friendly neighbour as I thought and Clidd can't confirm for him even though they are neighbours now. And Samantha will hopefully bring more AI material before EoD.

Fuzzy doesn't want to get into voting out PRs for whatever reason. He did not consider you or Umlaut as possibility outside of Cabd and that pinged me as well. Before I push you or Umlaut, I would rather confirm if the basis of my thinking is correct, so I want to flip Fuzzy.

[Maduisha]

Honestly, we can agree or disagree on an opinion and you can trash my reads, go against my proposal, or anything else you'd see fitting, but claiming I'm not trying to scumhunt or solve as a whole simply because you don't agree with my way to solve is in bad taste and upsetting. I won't tell you how to play because I don't have any right to, but I'd appreciate not having my efforts to understand the game handwoven simply because our mindsets don't meld together.

[TheFuzzylogic99]

i think it is likely scum is claiming vanilla. Giving my role and Cabd role it is likely one is claiming VT to make the balance seem more town heavy then it is. As i believe Cabd role.

TBF it is weird that Cabd investigated Clidd instead of me since i was the number 1 suspect yesterday. Part of me thinks that it was that she was paranoid and wanted to make sure Clidd was town since he was TR by almost everyone. The other is i might be wrong and for some reason and Cabd is fake claiming.

[Umlaut]

Max, I'll admit I haven't read very carefully, so maybe you've already answered this. Why

did

you protect clidd, as opposed to one of the two alleged investigators? It's a surprising choice. About equally as surprising as Cabd investigating clidd instead of Fuzzy.

[Maduisha]

TBF it is weird that Cabd investigated Clidd instead of me since i was the number 1 suspect yesterday.

Part of me thinks that it was that she was paranoid and wanted to make sure Clidd was town

since he was TR by almost everyone. The other is i might be wrong and for some reason and Cabd is fake claiming.

Dude, you even phrase it like you came up with the reason through intuition, when Cabd already stated why:

Spoiler:

I feel like it's fairly obvious why I checked Clidd. He's essentially my own play style but not in my slot... I know exactly how dangerous it is to town read that effort, and that the play style snows towns hard. SO if I lived, getting to KNOW he is town and can know all work we do together is genuine? That's rad.

He is a townread.

I don't see cop as always something you hero play with trying to get a guilty. I see it as a way to remove paranoia from the board about players you think could be capable of getting past you extremely well.

[TheFuzzylogic99]

was phone posting while i waited for my ride which means i dont read more than the last page. Will post something more deep when i get home i hope. School day so i cant promise anything

[maxwell]

Honestly, we can agree or disagree on an opinion and you can trash my reads, go against my proposal, or anything else you'd see fitting, but claiming I'm not trying to scumhunt or solve as a whole simply because you don't agree with my way to solve is in bad taste and upsetting. I won't tell you how to play because I don't have any right to, but I'd appreciate not having my efforts to understand the game handwoven simply because our mindsets don't meld together.

No, actually, accusing me of this because I'm pointing out your deliberate avoidance of taking any sort of stance is in extremely bad taste. You're resorting to emotional manipulation because I called you on your behavior. In the very post before this, you straddle multiple fences at the same time: Oh, samantha

could

be scum, I

could

be scum, Umlaut

could

be scum, you're refusing to take a stance on half the slots in the game, it shouldn't be this hard to give some sort of attempt at a read on people, avoiding the subject like this is incredibly scummy

Max, I'll admit I haven't read very carefully, so maybe you've already answered this. Why

did

you protect clidd, as opposed to one of the two alleged investigators? It's a surprising choice. About equally as surprising as Cabd investigating clidd instead of Fuzzy.

In my estimation, one of the claims had to be fake, a sacrifice kill was unlikely, better to protect someone who looked towny at a glance that I wanted to keep in the game.