Open 805 Panic Room Day 1

[catboi]

What leads you to that conclusion?

I'm continuously getting this feeling that

Daenerys and Dragons

vs

Dumb and Dumber

is not TvT

yeah why is that?

- Daenerys

Mostly gut, don't go through all of your ISOs yet, find hard to read actually.

I don't really feel gut is strong enough to say 2 people arguing aren't both town. That feels a very arbitrary claim to make. Town argue with each other all the time and in this case, right now, it doesn't feel to me like either of them is arguing in a scummy way.


I don't hate 1183, something about the way gamma explains his thought processes there seems believable. I do not like 1187, though.

[catboi]

VOTE: MURDERCATTO

I agree with Dumbass. previous pages have me less interested in voting gamma, let's flip murder.

[catboi]

timing of yyotta's voe on gamma is very bizarre.

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I strongly dislike gamma, but hard to tell if that’s being skewed by me disliking his misunderstanding pretty much everything I say. I feel like that interaction was me trying to repeatedly explain why I don’t make sense as scum and he accused me of taking his statements personally and acted like that invalidated everything I said, but... I was just calling him out on a read that made zero sense. Like.. are we not here to argue about things? If I try to disprove a read that I think isn’t made in good faith or make someone rethink their logic then I’m somehow taking it personally? I literally don’t/didn’t feel personally affronted, I’m just playing the game, and now I feel like I’m supposed to feel shame for doing so. I get riled up, sure, but I don’t think I was “spewing raw vitriol”?? I was clearly getting frustrated that he literally didn’t read the content of my posts and went straight to attacking me.

- when I talked about auro’s read on gamma not really seeming congruous in different posts, gamma brought up whether auro thought murder was the bomb (?? not relevant)
- when I talked about infinity and gamma not caring about finding scum and settling for an easy NM wagon, gamma brought up murder not being scum (?? not relevant)
- whenever I do pretty much anything, gamma calls it emotional and acts like my content doesn’t exist
- when I called him out on his logic for scum!me, gamma ignored the actual words I said and attacked me for it on a personal level, when it wasn’t a personal argument
- when I continued to call him out on it, he called my posts “raw vitriol” - I really don’t think they were, I’m trying to either disprove his read or make him rethink it, I don’t think I said anything mean or personal towards him
- and he acted like me having anything other than a 100% calm response was grounds to basically ignore everything I was saying
- he ignored all of my content in favor of waxing on about how it was basically my fault he wasn’t listening to me, when he could have just read my damn post
- he did that when I was trying to engage him about murder too, so I feel like there’s a pattern here of avoiding interactions by making it personal and responding to things with completely irrelevant things
- he compared this game to Hidden Temple which is seriously probably my worst scumgame of all time. This is so so so far from reality that I cannot believe someone thinks that my play is similar to that game
- he compared this game to Cards of Destiny which, again, is probably one of my worse scumgames.
- if you think my play in this game is anything like these two games, you are in another universe. or just scum.
- if you look at my play in this game outside of dumb & dumber and think I’d be playing like this as scum, you must either have a really incredible impression of my scumgame (doesn’t make much sense if the two scumgames you’ve seen are the two just mentioned above, which are in like my bottom 3 games). or just scum.
- and if you seriously posit scum!me intentionally going up against town!skitter, you are either really not thinking this through. or just scum.
- by occam’s razor: just scum.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

like seriously I have to repeat myself four times while gamma is accusing me of overreacting and I’m just trying to show that his reasoning doesn’t make sense/is scummy.

your reads are garbage.

1) does anyone ACTUALLY believe that I, as scum, would willingly pick a 1v1 against town!skitter? I've been pushing her slot since the beginning. that would mean you have two of the strongest town players in this game, who are also familiar with both my towngame and my scumgame, and I'm staring them in the face and drawing their attention like this. in what universe is that how I aim to play around skitter? that makes no fucking sense.

2) look at my ISO. I'm constantly engaging with people, evaluating my reads, picking things apart, and pushing. even though I'm no longer focusing on auro, it's clear I'm still trying to sort him. I'm trying to sort everyone. I'm clearly invested in this game and trying to solve. look at my posts and say to my face that this is a scummy ISO.

- Daenerys

not only that, but in order to scumread me you have to believe that after skitter and auro backed off me, that I am willingly, repeatedly, poking and prodding and antagonizing them instead of just letting them townread me. how on earth do you think this is a strategy that scum!me takes with respect to a town!dumb and dumber. how????

either you're blind or you're scum.

- Daenerys

now if you actually READ my ISO and THINK about the position I've taken on dumb & dumber, you should realize that it makes zero sense for me to put myself in a position where I am constantly antagonizing them if I'm scum and they're town. and you should also see that I'm clearly putting in effort and care about solving this damn game.

- Daenerys

once again, if you think that my play here and in hidden temple is at all the same, I like....... don't fucking know what will make it through to your head because we are in totally different universes here. there was

nothing

towny or proactive or engaged about my play in hidden temple. I'd also like responses to what I said because it really seems like you have either not stopped to think about anything I've done this game and how it could possibly be scum-indicative....... or you're just scum.

- Daenerys

now if you actually READ my ISO and THINK about the position I've taken on dumb & dumber, you should realize that it makes zero sense for me to put myself in a position where I am constantly antagonizing them if I'm scum and they're town. and you should also see that I'm clearly putting in effort and care about solving this damn game.

your shading me does not make sense if you've actually thought about where I am in this game. if you stopped and thought about this for a second, you should see that I have no reason to be constantly pushing town!dumb & dumber if I'm scum.

- Daenerys

I don't believe your read on me has been made in good faith, or considers the entirety of my play in this game, so yeah, I have a problem with it. I have a problem with all reads that I don't think are formed in good faith, I just happen to be more personally invested in the reads on me.

- Daenerys

like I'm not even mean until after you said "fuck off." before that I was just questioning your reads because they actually make no sense. if you want to say my attitude stinks, fine. "raw vitriol" is just hypocritical and not even true.

- Daenerys

Maybe my words were off, but that's another of my personal challenges is finding the words to convey my thoughts appropriately.
As for my telling you to fuck off, what you were telling me to do felt like a waste of my time. I'm not interested in backreading for that stuff rn. The most I'm intending to backread for atp is to find who would make sense as scum rn in a general sense. Maybe I'll end up concluding you're town when I do that but I'm not going to

want

to townread you if it feels like I'm only doing it because you got upset. So let me read in MY way on MY time.

okay - if it wasn't clear, I meant the specific series of posts I made on page 48. I wanted you to actually think about what it meant for the game if I was scum and put myself in a position where I was deliberately antagonizing a town!skitter and town!auro repeatedly, with no visible benefit to myself, because that doesn't make sense to me as a strategy that any scum would make. going up against town!dumb & dumber would be fucking

terrifying

and I am hard-pressed to imagine anyone as scum being willing to throw themselves into a 1v1 with them like that.

- Daenerys

and you completely ignoring that feels like you really didn't think about whether I made sense as scum in a general sense and therefore it feels like you're just picking and choosing what you think about in order to make my slot into a potential wagon.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I feel like it’s understandable to be frustrated when someone doesn’t seem to be interacting with you in good faith, and then gamma accuses me of overreacting and attacks me for it, which I feel is even less in good faith. gamma’s entire interactions with/mentions of me are pretty much just dismissals of any content I have and refusals to interact with me because I’m “too emotional” while simultaneously attacking me in an emotional way. Again, beyond frustration, I don’t think I was overly emotional, I don’t think I overreacted, I disagreed with reads and called them out for being either bad or coming from scum, and then repeatedly explained the reason I said that. Meanwhile, gamma was busy telling me that my posts aren’t valid if I show any signs of frustration so really it’s my fault he’s not interacting with me in good faith. I don’t think this is town.

- Daenerys

[Salsabil Faria]

your reads are garbage.

1) does anyone ACTUALLY believe that I, as scum, would willingly pick a 1v1 against town!skitter? I've been pushing her slot since the beginning. that would mean you have two of the strongest town players in this game, who are also familiar with both my towngame and my scumgame, and I'm staring them in the face and drawing their attention like this. in what universe is that how I aim to play around skitter? that makes no fucking sense.

2) look at my ISO. I'm constantly engaging with people, evaluating my reads, picking things apart, and pushing. even though I'm no longer focusing on auro, it's clear I'm still trying to sort him. I'm trying to sort everyone. I'm clearly invested in this game and trying to solve. look at my posts and say to my face that this is a scummy ISO.

- Daenerys

not only that, but in order to scumread me you have to believe that after skitter and auro backed off me, that I am willingly, repeatedly, poking and prodding and antagonizing them instead of just letting them townread me. how on earth do you think this is a strategy that scum!me takes with respect to a town!dumb and dumber. how????

either you're blind or you're scum.

- Daenerys

I know these replies is not for me, but I want to know something. Scum!you are willingly picking 1v1 against town!Skitter is also not impossible despite you both know each other playstyles both town+scum? It can be a good strategy to use so that scum!you can be townreaded by all/most of the players at least? And town!Skitter has to prove to the rest of us that you're a scum here. You may be (?) can't play around town!Skitter, but you may (?) can play around enough people to save yourselves from the elimination? And everyone tries to improve their game, so that doesn't mean scum!you don't improve your game here especially knowing that town!Skitter is here. This isn't my read on you/Skitter, I'm clearing that maybe (?) all of it isn't that impossible.

[Green Crayons]

which post was this in response to/who is "you"?

Was supposed to be responding to 1249

Spoiler: post & response

more votes on gamma please. or on dumb & dumber although I doubt I'd be able to push through a wagon on them today.

- Daenerys

Didn't you say to never flip skitter D1? Or was that someone else?

I was quoting mena when I said that. I said to never townread her D1. I'm kind of at the point where I think my read is strong enough that I might want to elim her D1, but since it seems like no one else is really considering them I don't really see the point.

- Daenerys

^^^ Auro’s posting with you has been weird (I didn’t think his posting when y’all first got at it was weird, and actually thought you were being weird, but ever since then his posting wrt is off) but that’s also something I don’t have the energy to suss out as AI or just personality plus I really like the other half of the hydra

[catboi]

Salsabil, have you done these type of detailed ISO reads in a game before?

[Salsabil Faria]

I'm continuously getting this feeling that

Daenerys and Dragons

vs

Dumb and Dumber

is not TvT

Gonna need more here boss.

-Dragons

You guys have too many posts and I'm afraid going through your ISO's, to be honest

Spoiler:

[Salsabil Faria]

Salsabil, have you done these type of detailed ISO reads in a game before?

Yes, but can't talk about that, it's an ongoing game (REDACTED).

[catboi]

if you can't talk about it, don't link it, thanks

[Salsabil Faria]

I'm not even directly pushing you yet, I'm just trying to talk on my thoughts, so your explosive reaction seems overly defensive

Agreed. Town can be defensive too, I myself a defensive person, but Lilith's defensiveness is not something I see town usually do.

[Salsabil Faria]

if you can't talk about it, don't link it, thanks

Oh! sorry sorry, I don't know that I can't even link any ongoing game.

@Mod

, you can erase the link, I'm so sorry

[YyottaCat]

>am neutral
>Gets voted

?????

You no longer are.

[Salsabil Faria]

once again - look at my ISO. look at me pushing, sorting, engaging, and progressing this game. yeah, I think I'm the most obvtown slot in this game.

- Daenerys

Don't get mad but I saw this exact same attitude of

obsessive town solver

scum game in one of my previous games and most of the players fell for it and the mafia won.

[Salsabil Faria]

not anymore
I s2g do you fuckers have any reading comprehension at all?

@MURDERCAT

what did you mean by “your one scum game”?
I feel like depending on this I have a solid binary of where scum is.
UNVOTE: because straight up stating NM is not involved in that binary

UNVOTE: because straight up stating NM is not involved in that binary

like holy shit how dense are you?????

let's note I did not target this at anyone, but you have taken it personally

I mean I also thought this post was for

Daenerys and Dragons

[Salsabil Faria]

I honestly feel like a lot of the barriers I have in doing well in the game of mafia stem from my IRL quirks. The thing is, I actually seek to exploit that in a sense, using mafia as a way to build those skills in an environment with reduced stakes (since it's just a game, my blunders shouldn't cause any lasting consequences).
It's the same reason why I wanna go on Survivor some day despite my social interaction issues. I feel like it would be a good trial-by-fire if conventional methods of improving my people skills don't work. The only issue with that is Survivor also has a physical aspect I don't know if I'll ever be ready for.

Survivor?

[Salsabil Faria]

however, as mena once said, skitter is a bad D1 elim. I’m not really interested in pursuing their elimination today, but I’m very much not convinced that they’re town. when I get back I’ll try to be more involved in sorting other slots for today’s elim.

What is 'mena'?

[Green Crayons]

In my mind, someone who sits around the thread watching what is happening but only responding when called upon is scummy. Look at the game I linked to, PP waited for me to push Taylor and then immediately jumped on with me (I think Taylor was also scum that game but the point is that scum is usually more reactive than proactive).

I guess my final ask on this line of conversation is: does penguin not act like this when town?

[MURDERCAT]

I wasn't sure whether murdercat was crediting BTXV as his one scumgame or not
if that was the case then my side of the debate fell flat and the binary didn't qualify
otherwise I felt either cakez was negligent in highlighting the recency of the finished game or PP was overlooking it despite it being called out

the question was to determine if the binary existed, not to pick a side

@Gamma I think the way you reacted to your wagon is a little suspicious.

idk exactly what you mean by this
I did kinda get defensive at catboi before, was that what you mean?

Yeah, but it just brings you back to neutral on my readlist.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Where is this vote coming from?

[Green Crayons]

1. There's a difference between and . Your penguine reaction tests were aimed at the former suspicion. I don't see how you go from there to the latter suspicion.

2. Was penguin scum in your last game?

3. Why, in the first place, did you reaction test penguin for his active monitoring of the thread?

I'm genuinely not sure what the difference is. Like it is obvious that PP was not leading the conversation. So I tested if PP was just not around or was being selective in what to post.

PP has been scum in both my games with him since I've been back, though 1 didn't really count because it was a meme game.

In my mind, someone who sits around the thread watching what is happening but only responding when called upon is scummy. Look at the game I linked to, PP waited for me to push Taylor and then immediately jumped on with me (I think Taylor was also scum that game but the point is that scum is usually more reactive than proactive).

Look at the game I linked to

I don't see what game you're referring to with penguin. I only see a link to the game where you said town threw.

Help me out, brother. I want to sort you and this game is dragging.

I don't see what game you're referring to with penguin. I only see a link to the game where you said town threw.

I was referring to this game: viewtopic.php?f=51&t=84282

Here's an example of what I am talking about (presented without context, but you know you can go read it):

VOTE: gamer

VOTE: gamer

This one of a couple times where PP immediately sheeped me on a vote rather than pushing something himself.

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

So I'm not sure that "actively monitoring but not always participating" OR "not leading the conversation" are necessarily scum AI. My problem was that this was the main pillar of MC's penguin vote.

I do understand how MC is linking those two concepts, but I don't think they're necessarily coextensive (point here is it doesn't seem like MC is shifting his reasoning to suspect penguin as he gets pushed).

Given MC's history with scum!penguin, I think MC's association with this play as being scum AI isn't far fetched. scum!MC would have needed to have concocted the plan based on penguin's in-thread play, which isn't impossible but also consistent with town!MC.


(Aside: The secondary points of MC's penguin votes don't strike me as particularly compelling. That penguin changed his opinions on players without spelling it out in the thread, ~*~thus requiring mind reading, am I right penguin?~*~, is something I do and don't find AI. That penguin hasn't expressed ample TRs isn't AI, otherwise I think many players get those scum points.)

UNVOTE: MC

[Green Crayons]

Also I'm not really gonna defend against votes on my slot. If anyone has concerns they'd like me to address, just go ahead and ask me.

-Dumbass

What does this mean--you're not going to defend against people voting you? Leaving it to Skitter? Or just a mea culpa?

[Salsabil Faria]

Mostly gut, don't go through all of your ISOs yet, find hard to read actually.

I don't really feel gut is strong enough to say 2 people arguing aren't both town. That feels a very arbitrary claim to make. Town argue with each other all the time and in this case, right now, it doesn't feel to me like either of them is arguing in a scummy way.

I didn't say anywhere if there is any 1v1 going, it has to be TvS. I read your replaced slot and

Green Crayons

's 1v1 arguments TvT back then. I just sensed something off which lead me to think that the arguments between the hydras are not TvT.

[Green Crayons]

if i were to vote rn, it'd be on gamma because of his interactions with GOT D&D + his insistence on defending the MC slot based on non-AI reasons

but i want to reread a little bit first before voting