Mini Number 2195 | Brutalism | GAME OVER

[Green Crayons]

green, i don't think you answered my q in 1127?

you aren't null, you're mid-tier town

[Green Crayons]

:

lmao maybe i could but thatd be like a play for a game i really really wanted to win as scum not just like a one off normal for me where i'd go with my more comfortable plays that have worked for me.

i missed this earlier.

how should i go about determining whether this is a game where you really want to win as scum or a game where this is you're pursuing your more comfortable plays?

and to sort-of cut to the chase: i'm asking this in the context of folks (you also?) describing your play as chaotic in this game, which was not something they saw as usual for you (correct me if i'm wrong about this)

[VP Baltar]

I'm basically not reading a lot from the last few pages.

Lotus, tell me more about why you think andres was taking advantage of our fight instead of just expressing his genuine opinion?

[midwaybear]

That feel when the three top wagons (as of 1440) are your three stated townreads

[Andresvmb]

I’m back. Sorry about that - it’s been a super busy week for me.

I’ll try and completely catch up and give some additional thoughts.

[VP Baltar]

it’s been a super busy week for me.

To quote Datisi, this is a mood.

[Andresvmb]

Btw I really do think Lotus is just Scum here.

[OutWorldER]

Official Vote Count 1.11

Abandoned Hotel, Dombay, Caucasus

---

Elimination

With 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to eliminate someone.

Elements (4): Dunnstral, VP Baltar, RLotus, Battle Mage
maxwell(2): Elements, Datisi
Reformed Toxic Player (2): Green Crayons, ItalianoVD
Green Crayons (1): maxwell
VP Baltar (1): Duchess
Duchess (1): Reformed Toxic Player
RLotus (1): Andresvmb

Not Voting

(1): midwaybear

Deadline:

(expired on 2021-02-28 21:49:12).

Mod notes: Duchess has requested replacement.

[/area]

[RLotus]

I'm basically not reading a lot from the last few pages.

Lotus, tell me more about why you think andres was taking advantage of our fight instead of just expressing his genuine opinion?

The way he gave his read of me made it seems like he was unsure about scum reading me, yet when questioned about it he stayed sturdy in his stance rather than entertaining the opposite. It made it seem like he was holding on to the read for agenda purposes rather than genuinely evaluating.

It's a combination of not thoroughly fleshed out reasoning and a gut feeling. I'm not entirely confident about this.

The more I've thought about though it may not be a good idea to go for him just now because I trust in his ability to project town, so it may be smarter to give him to time to develop.

[RLotus]

Btw I really do think Lotus is just Scum here.

Could you explain why?

Also, how has your read of RTP progressed?

[Andresvmb]

Vote VPB whenever you feel like voting for scum

Elements vote there looks pretty terrible. Although it doesn't make a lot of sense for him to do it to his partner, so if VPB does flip red, some slight town points to Elements. Same for VPB if Elements flips red.

The two main wagons are starting to look pretty bad to me

Just generally, this is what I have been getting - and this is all general and no I won’t link specific posts that’s hard enough to do and I just haven’t had time. My thoughts are a bit disorganized because I’ve been starting and going, and I haven’t really been able to read the progressions and the game in one straight shot. So that’s creating a lot of confusion for me.

I think {VPB, Datisi, RTP, Duchess, Elements} are Town. There’s varying reasons for this group in my head. {Datisi, VPB} are clearly trying to solve, don’t seem informed to me, and I can’t say I find them particularly objectionable (they’re also likely not aligned I think, and that has to do with how they’re treating each other). I’ve disagreed with Datisi on a few reads (most notably Italiano if I remember correctly) but overall yeah I’m okay with tone/approach. I think VPB has been irritable/solvey and they’re not backing from a fight (say for example, with Green Crayons). I think that’s likely coming from Town.

RTP is confusing the crap out of me. But a few things - they’ve exhibited genuine attempts at pursuing particular slots with no regard for how they come across (I can think of a few dogged fights with Battle Mage / Green Crayons / VPB / Datisi / Italiano just from the top of my head), they’ve been all over the place really (and it doesn’t immediately strike me as flip flopping for the sake of it - and really how does that help you as Scum?), and most importantly, there’s a lot of emotion coming from them (and it feels genuine, which already VPB and Datisi have spoken about). I do overall after a lot of thought can’t say I think RTP is Scum.

Duchess seems thoughtful to me, and Elements I have already made some points about but I do think that they’ve made some good arguments, and do come somewhat across as low hanging fruit in a way (they’ve self-voted repeatedly, openly admit to having little to contribute at times, etc.). So yeah RTP, you’ve SR here at different times and I think you’re wrong.

So, if you look at the game with those slots as Town, I’m starting to think that {Green Crayons, RLotus, Dunnstral} and to a lesser extent midwaybear all make sense as potential executions. Do I think this is totally correct? No, frankly I’m really uncertain on Italiano. I thought they were being wrongly pushed, and had some emotion I thought would be hard to fake as Scum, but they had a reachy argument about RTP I didn’t like, and I could just be wrong and some of my TRs right about the slot. Battle Mage has generally seemed good to me, but if I’m coming to the conclusion that RTP is Town, you have to question just how insistent Battle Mage has been there. But I mean I am also stubborn, so I don’t want to overly focus on that. And Dunn is frankly somewhat marginal. I don’t like how Dunn keeps insisting that their lurkiness is NAI. I mean, you’re intentionally making yourself hard to read.

There’s a lot that’s pinged me about RLotus. They made some point that I was trying to come in, appear like Town, and then dodge. But c’mon now, that’s straight up bullshit. They don’t like that I’ve been stubborn about their slot, and they’re trying to discredit me. It isn’t trying to figure out my alignment. And they have articulated that they think I make some good points every now and then, but I’m trying to come across as Town? Nonsense. If you think my pushes are bad that’s one thing. That doesn’t seem to be the main issue, but again I would need to read closer since I have bits and pieces of the game I haven’t gotten to.

[Andresvmb]

So I have the game something like this?

Lean Town
{RTP, VPBaltar, Datisi, Elements, Duchess}
Slight Lean Town
{Harumi Ayasato/maxwell, Testarossa/Battle Mage}
Neutral
{ItalianoVD, Green Crayons}
Slight Lean Scum
{RLotus, Lunar Martian/midwaybear, Dunnstral}

[Andresvmb]

I’m just going to come out and say - fully expect me to constantly re-evaluate upon flips and information. I’m doing my best here, but just generally speaking, I feel really uncomfortable in this game. There are some games where I get some Town reads and I think to myself okay this is a sufficiently strong anchor to move forward with. I am really not getting that vibe here. I could absolutely be misjudging multiple players here and just be completely wrong.

[RLotus]

But a few things - they’ve exhibited genuine attempts at pursuing particular slots with no regard for how they come across (I can think of a few dogged fights with Battle Mage / Green Crayons / VPB / Datisi / Italiano just from the top of my head),

Why doesn't this apply to me also?

Btw I really do think Lotus is just Scum here.

And, why only a slight scum lean if you think this?

[Andresvmb]

And, why only a slight scum lean if you think this?

Because I would never be arrogant enough to assume that D1 my reads are golden. I don’t know how many times I need to say that I’m really uncertain in general. So why would I put anyone here as a strong read in either direction?

[Andresvmb]

Why doesn't this apply to me also?

You’ve been somewhat tunnely from what I can recall (Italiano, VPB, Me). It doesn’t help that I think all of those are wrong.

[RLotus]

How in the world have I tunneled you lol

[Andresvmb]

How in the world have I tunneled you lol

After everything I’ve posted, this is what you’re going to say? It’s like you’re just trying to be dismissive.

[Andresvmb]

1326 - @Datisi to answer some of the stuff you asked me here. I don’t think I ever go Scum on that wagon, no idea who and stop trying. I make statements to frame my thinking and I try to narrow it down. It should be obvious to you know that I’m leaning most strongly at RLotus being that Scum I was referencing there. And we were on opposite sides of the Italiano discussion. That’s what I meant with you siding incorrectly.

[Andresvmb]

^obvious to you now*

[RLotus]

How in the world have I tunneled you lol

After everything I’ve posted, this is what you’re going to say? It’s like you’re just trying to be dismissive.

No I'm asking how I have tunneled. Virtually every time mentioning you I express doubt that you are actually scum and I could be wrong, and haven't been focused on you.

Why doesn't this apply to me also?

You’ve been somewhat tunnely from what I can recall (Italiano, VPB, Me). It doesn’t help that I think all of those are wrong.

You also didn't actually answer the question I asked

Idk why you are acting this way

[Andresvmb]

Datisi, Duchess, Elements, RTP, and VP Baltar.

:O

[Andresvmb]

No I'm asking how I have tunneled. Virtually every time mentioning you I express doubt that you are actually scum and I could be wrong, and haven't been focused on you.

And? It’s true about VPB/Italiano for sure. Less so about me. Though you’ve had me as a Scum Lean with some uncertainty for a bit (and I think it’s total crap).

[RLotus]

In post 1535, Andresvmb wrote:
But a few things - they’ve exhibited genuine attempts at pursuing particular slots with no regard for how they come across (I can think of a few dogged fights with Battle Mage / Green Crayons / VPB / Datisi / Italiano just from the top of my head),

Why doesn't this apply to me also?

I guess you aren't interested in answering this or?

Anyway, I did like Andre's evaluation of the game. Like I said before when he speaks he brings up good, thoughtful points.

[RLotus]

Andre, the way you are leaning onto me is exactly what I meant earlier. You say:

Because I would never be arrogant enough to assume that D1 my reads are golden. I don’t know how many times I need to say that I’m really uncertain in general. So why would I put anyone here as a strong read in either direction?

But the way you are pushing onto me seems like you aren't giving me a fair shake, like you

are

confident. This is why it feels bad to me, like you are pushing me for an agenda reason rather than actually trying to evaluate me. Why don't you express deliberation if you aren't sure, rather than attacking everything I post at you?