TM 2021 Large Normal 2: Wikipedia Integer Facts (Over)

[Cephrir]

ok here. maybe i'll even read your rebutal after this because i'm so nice and in a good mood.

Hopkirk is still scum, y'all

Bullet points from 2340

• Specifically throwing RC's name out
  at LLD
  , knowing that it could derail the attention of a strong scumhunter, under the guise of a joke is scummy as shit. This was a couple hundred posts and 24+ hours after the initial comment by LLD. Why bring it up other than to throw kerosene on a fire and see if you can derail it? (1142)

I don't care about this even though it may have been cribbed from me initially

[*]Persistent using one word then when called, trying to backtrack and saying he used that word but meant a different thing. This isn't just a mistake one time and going "ah right, I misused that," it's a consistent pattern of trying to weasel out of being held accountable. ([A] 2079 initial + 2089 backtrack.

2814 initial + 3502 backtrack.)

I'd have to really engage with the entire argument to make heads or tails of this one, but I remember thinking previously that it seemed like a pretty understandable difference of opinion about what the word counterwagon means

[*]Recycling previous scumhunting points used by others and deliberately manipulating either the facts of what happened or the intent of the point to fit his narrative to try and bolster fake scumhunting. (2091)

I guess I'd have to read everything for this too, but:
-I don't think "recycling points from others" is bad? You're allowed to agree with other people, aren't you?
-I don't think the manipulation thing is something scum actually do and I feel like you've both accused each other of doing it and I just don't care in either case. I don't think scum come out and go "I'm gonna pretend what happened isn't what happened" because that's pretty, like, provable... I think people just argue past each other and use words differently and yes, sometimes exaggerate a bit without fully researching how factual the point they feel in their bones is because I do that and it's NAI for me too.

[*]Any pressure has been attempted to be discredited with the insinuation that things are personal as opposed to being scumhunting - discrediting and no actual defense. (1642, 2089) [/list]

I agree with this, I'm just unsure if it's your personality or scummy. I mean "actual defense" has been there too but you do seem to take suspicion from anyone as a personal attack

Additions:

• His reasonings for "locktowning" players have been the kind of garbage that scum make up so they can justify a townread they already have. (ex: 2399 re: xtoxm, everything in 3499)

Christ do I have to read this?
I genuinely have no idea what is wrong with 2399
I guess a few of the reasons in 3499 are sort of tautology oriented, and i do think you should've been putting more critical thought into trusting the "core lld pushers" at this time, but I don't think it's a big deal

[*]Supposedly I am his only definitive scumread - I'm separate from the POE pool now, y'all! - yet he has done fuckall to actually get a yeet on me. I've pointed this out in 3851 and 4174. Someone don't want blood on their hands. He's had three days to present any kind of reason as to why I'm scum, but he knows it's all horseshit and he'd rather burden someone else with the bad reasoning by asking anyone and everyone to scumread me.

Isn't this pretty much accurate? I don't think every player needs to be a mega aggro kill kill wagon wagon type of player, although you seem like you would be one to me

[*]His posts have an air of "I want scumhunting done!" but lack actual content himself and he would rather burden other folks with that. (3507 asking why no one has analyzed the D1 wagons, alternatively, ISO him and ctrl+f my name and see how many times he just throws "agar?" into replies to folks because he doesn't like that his pet misyeet is being townread.)

If the bit about basically complaining about the lack of scumhunting while not doing so is true, it would bother me. Is it, though? Because the example of 3507 isn't one I find compelling, and the second argument is basically just the point above this one again.

[*]4650 is full of the WIFOM-y bullshit that scum love to throw out there because it can't be proven, it's worthless spec, and it justifies misyeets easily.[/list]

not sure what's worse about this post than any other theory based on who didn't bus whom or what wagon composition was likely to be, and townies do those things all the time

:shrug:

[Cephrir]

So this is based on a flawed and insulting view of me as a person and backed by nothing but agar going ‘yeah, this seems like something Hopkirk would (only) do as scum’ and becoming locked on that without any actual thought on it. More likely he was doing this to try and turn LLD on me rather than pushing Hercule again. He knew it was a TvT and he wanted to make it worse by trying to misinterpret what I was saying in a crappy way. EVERYONE who’s commented on him has disagreed with him on it including- Dunn and LLD themselves (as they didn’t comment on it and would have if they thought it was serious). Despite everyone disagreeing with him personality read on me, he’s stuck to it despite having never met me before outside of the abandoned d1.

Agar specifically took something that was clearly intended between a joke and used it to try and start conflict between me/LLD – a TvT. Like it’s clearly just outright attempting to stir up issues between town

I can see how you get to this, but I don't think it's impossible he actually believes in his point instead. Plus, he's continued slamming on it with LLD dead, so even if he's scum he must think he has a good point here right?

[Hopkirk]

point 1 that you don't care about is the point where he decided to 100% scumlock me. in points 2/3 he's clearly starting from scum!hop based on that and ignored point 1 being objectively wrong

on the second point the issue i have is that he's clearly reading as though hop is confirmed scum and he's trying to prove it - which is how he's been acting since d1

i don't take

every

attack against me as a personal attack, but i do take ones that are explicitly personal attacks as personal attacks. Agar is literally saying 'I'm so convinced Hopkirk is an asshole that i'm 100% sure that he makes posted designed to be inflammatory as scum'. there's not a way to take

the central point of why he doesn't like me

as not a direct personal insult

[Cephrir]

- Can anyone read my iso and seriously say there’s no reasons there why I don’t like Agar? This is objectively untrue. A more substantial case I need time to make that I only really have over the weekend (unless I’m pissed off by stuff like… agar)

- I have a shitton of scumhunting. Well, I say scumhunting, most of it is townhunting since I prefer to find town then POE. As is very clear. See multiple games where I’ve described my style in detail to be this. Agar is my most confident scumread, but I’m also confident the rest of the scum are within my POE. I ask questions of other people on reads as it helps me sort them + I’m willing to sheep my townreads reads. None of this is meaningful.

-Of course there are reasons why you don't like Agar in your iso, but I don't think that actually addresses the point, "why hadn't you been doing more to actually get agar eliminated."
The bit about lacking time does address it, and is fine.

-I feel like I'd need to iso you to decide whether you've been townhunting to a satisfying degree and I don't really feel like it.

[Cephrir]

point 1 that you don't care about is the point where he decided to 100% scumlock me. in points 2/3 he's clearly starting from scum!hop based on that and ignored point 1 being objectively wrong

on the second point the issue i have is that he's clearly reading as though hop is confirmed scum and he's trying to prove it - which is how he's been acting since d1

Agreed- it looks like he's deeply confbiased and tunnelling. That could come from scum and could also not. Surely the lord of toxic 1v1s has seen this flip TvT before.

i don't take

every

attack against me as a personal attack, but i do take ones that are explicitly personal attacks as personal attacks. Agar is literally saying 'I'm so convinced Hopkirk is an asshole that i'm 100% sure that he makes posted designed to be inflammatory as scum'. there's not a way to take

the central point of why he doesn't like me

as not a direct personal insult

i guess. you seem offended anytime i criticize you too tho.

[Hopkirk]

So this is based on a flawed and insulting view of me as a person and backed by nothing but agar going ‘yeah, this seems like something Hopkirk would (only) do as scum’ and becoming locked on that without any actual thought on it. More likely he was doing this to try and turn LLD on me rather than pushing Hercule again. He knew it was a TvT and he wanted to make it worse by trying to misinterpret what I was saying in a crappy way. EVERYONE who’s commented on him has disagreed with him on it including- Dunn and LLD themselves (as they didn’t comment on it and would have if they thought it was serious). Despite everyone disagreeing with him personality read on me, he’s stuck to it despite having never met me before outside of the abandoned d1.

Agar specifically took something that was clearly intended between a joke and used it to try and start conflict between me/LLD – a TvT. Like it’s clearly just outright attempting to stir up issues between town

I can see how you get to this, but I don't think it's impossible he actually believes in his point instead. Plus, he's continued slamming on it with LLD dead, so even if he's scum he must think he has a good point here right?

it's not impossible that he believes it but...
the fact he hasn't reconsidered it despite multi people he claims to TR telling him he's objectively wrong reduces that likelihood
that he hasn't reviewed anything and he's built more on the back of it without recognizing how bad it is reduces that likelihood
that he didn't interact with me on any of it to actual try and develop the points reduces that likelihood
that if he was town he'd have read back on it enough that he should have realized it's bad reduces that likelihood
he mixes in multiple points that i can't reconcile
that he pretends to know my meta in there better than people who've played with me
that... everything. it can't be genuine

i can think of plenty of motivations (doesn't want to back off because he wants me to be lethaled, thinks it's sus to back off, likes how the game is going and doesn't want to rock things etc) for scum!agar to keep doing it but idk which is his actual motive

[Cephrir]

i feel a little better about you now but i mean it still is irrelevant until i hear what the neapolitan has to say anyway.

[Cephrir]

that he didn't interact with me on any of it to actual try and develop the points reduces that likelihood

well hey here's an idea. let's try interacting with him in a non hostile way too!

hey agar what does your team think about your case, specifically the bit about the RC joke?

[Hopkirk]

point 1 that you don't care about is the point where he decided to 100% scumlock me. in points 2/3 he's clearly starting from scum!hop based on that and ignored point 1 being objectively wrong

on the second point the issue i have is that he's clearly reading as though hop is confirmed scum and he's trying to prove it - which is how he's been acting since d1

Agreed- it looks like he's deeply confbiased and tunnelling. That could come from scum and could also not. Surely the lord of toxic 1v1s has seen this flip TvT before.

i don't take

every

attack against me as a personal attack, but i do take ones that are explicitly personal attacks as personal attacks. Agar is literally saying 'I'm so convinced Hopkirk is an asshole that i'm 100% sure that he makes posted designed to be inflammatory as scum'. there's not a way to take

the central point of why he doesn't like me

as not a direct personal insult

i guess. you seem offended anytime i criticize you too tho.

i probably seem annoyed because i feel like you're town that's scumsiding and (until this point) hasn't been reviewing what seems super obvious to me- which either means you're sucm (which i don't think) or that you weren't willing to listen (not a problem now because you are engaging with the content now)

i've taken multiple breaks from the thread and i've been skimming through agar's iso in bed and like... i haven't changed my view on this at all. it still feels obvscum

[Cephrir]

i feel like it can be a little exhausting trying to explain to your own scumreads why they're scum and being told you have to interact with them about your points and give them a chance to talk you down is kinda anathema to how some players work. i feel like if i always did that i would never catch a charismatic player as scum.

[Cephrir]

man, actually trying at mafia is exhausting

[Hopkirk]

i'm not replying to 4909 explicitly because i can't really think of a good phrasing but i get what you mean in principle but it doesn't move me here?

man, actually trying at mafia is exhausting

i know right

[Cephrir]

can it just be titus mastina and jjh? my life would be so much easier if that were the case.

[Hopkirk]

depends if i'm garbage tier or not

[Xtoxm]

jjh is going down and down for me this doesnt look like his town game

gut is worried agar is obstinate town
i really hate his play today
people spelled out the mech and bell unvoted
agar doubled down and was like, i dont care
if it walks and quacks like scum...

also why switch from me to agar here after casing me? the vote on agar seems shallow in comparison to your thoughts on me

mhm that post was emotion driven; agar ruffled my scales and i hissed at him. then he didnt respond and hasnt posted since. the emotion has died down but his push on hop today is still out of place.

town!flakes getting voted increases the chances i get active/increases chances of me obvtowning

im a sucker for projected confidence of ability to obvtown but you've had a long god damn time and my patience is just about expired so i'd like to start seeing it.

[Almost50]

VOTE: jjh
pretty sure this is scum

Me too, but so is AGar. Could you be so kind as not to keep everybody suspecting you and keeping you in their PoE? Unless -of course- they're right and you are AGar's buddy and mastina's actually right about jjh, which your vote here only supports.

[OkaPoka]

Fair warning: will be fairly V/LA due to lifeguard training stuff. Can post right now tho, so...

No one ever fucking considered that scum might *gasp*

lie

.

To be fair.
I presented doubt towards Titus for that exact reason.

However.

This is a roleclaim that will literally be confirmed by another player. It's not something scum will lie about, especially not in the way Hopkirk did. The evolution of the claimed result was incredibly genuine.

VOTE: AGar

I'd actually prefer OkaPoka > Bell > AGar > WinterFlakes so AGar's not my first choice, but he's infinitesimally a better elimination than jjh and has a high chance of flipping scum, soooooooo.

are we going to ignore how bad this post is

[Almost50]

I just dont think

I mean, you're not wrong on that one.

[OkaPoka]

lmao so mastina is playing politics

jjh is at 2 votes and iv just expressed apprehension about keeping his vote there - are you really claiming this agar vote has anything to do with jjh's wagon?

in fact

i agree mastina isn't a political player

she's just open wolfing

VOTE: mastina

no shot she votes scumread no 3 and tries to disguise it using jjh especially at this stage

[Almost50]

I'd have to really engage with the entire argument to make heads or tails of this one

I guess I'd have to read everything for this too

Christ do I have to read this?

And still you think you're right and we're all wrong. Remind me to roll the dice and oppose the reads of everyone else when we play together again, just to stand out and feel important. Like, SERIOUSLY, how do you form reads that you are so stubborn to keep when you don't read or even skim stuff like this?

[Cephrir]

I do read it. I just dont remember every detail and I dont necessarily want to reread it multiple times to parse squirrelly little arguments about details.

[jjh927]

Winter flakes feels better than Agar, but I understand people would probably rather hear that from someone else right now

[Almost50]

Winter flakes feels better than Agar, but I understand people would probably rather hear that from someone else right now

In what sense? I mean does he feel like a better yeet, or does he feel more townie?

[jjh927]

A better elim

[jjh927]

Provided the only criteria is the likelihood of hitting scum, of course