Mini Number 2195 | Brutalism | GAME OVER

[RLotus]

i'm not saying it's "just paranoia", like i'm not stupid i see my pushes have flipped town and why that would be suspicious.

Your play does not reflect this whatsoever.

[Andresvmb]

You know what I think? I think we’ve given too many of the quieter slots too much leeway to behave in the way that they have.

At this stage, I want an execution in {Momrangal, DGB, Dunn}. If for whatever reason all of us have just been off and are overly paranoid about each other (and I mean RLotus, VPB, Datisi, Me), and we’re actually Town here, we need to punish the slots that are also still ending up on Town. I would like to start with Momrangal, who very clearly had a Scummy vote last night and has a perspective that doesn’t make any sense to me, and they conveniently refuse to update.

[Andresvmb]

Their attempt at a meta explanation for the Scum Read on me clearly failed. I hope you all can at the very least see that. And frankly, I really dislike that quiet vote by DGB for VPB.

[Andresvmb]

momrangal is probably town, however i've heard that battle mage's scumgame is actually Not Shit, so should probably look at that to see if his entrance really was out of his scumrange.

And Datisi, this counts as defending to me slightly. I really want you to look a little closer there.

[RLotus]

Speaking of which, Lotus, can I ask you how you feel you've played this game? Like I"m thinking about all the people you say have OMGUSed you, and by your own measures, only one of those people are scum. That feels like a lot of hard pushing on town players. You've agreed with andres that I'm fucking up because of bad pushes (which I don't disagree with), but your own pushes have been bad too, right? What makes you so confident this time?

Yes I made incorrect pushes, but I am able to see when I am wrong and my world view is constantly shifting. I softened on Italiano and flipped my read on both you and andre.

Compare this to Datisi who has continually been wrong. His world view should have crumbled by now, yet his view has not notably shifted. He's still got pretty much the same town block as yesterday.

Why am I confident? Because the game state is much clearer and people's behavior is more fleshed out. Obviously day 1 it is going to be much harder to find someone being explicitly scummy. I believe Datisi scumminess is apparent.

[Andresvmb]

but you're not looking at the bigger picture here. i never voted cookie, and i instantly said not to actually verify her claim / push her when it came up and agreed to give her a day or so. like attacking the doctor in hindsight doesn't look good, obviously. but why the fuck does scum!me do it? to point attention at myself and how much i think the claim is bad, only to then... nightkill her anyway?

If there was the potential that Cookie get executed during the day, wouldn’t Scum want to take advantage of that? I would argue that’s at least something I would explore as Scum.

[Andresvmb]

Why am I confident? Because the game state is much clearer and people's behavior is more fleshed out. Obviously day 1 it is going to be much harder to find someone being explicitly scummy. I believe Datisi scumminess is apparent.

My statement that not all of you can be Town or I would be floored remains true. Out of the three (You, VPB, Datisi), I would place Datisi as the most likely to flip Scum. But I am so tired of this argument and I think it’s been focused on at enough length. We need to scrutinize the other slots.

[Andresvmb]

I still believe that Dunn isn’t going to flip Scum because of how the votes piled up and the fact that it was a rehash of D1 basically. But where are they?!

If Momrangal is Town, for some reason, are we giving Green Crayons a pass here? Is Green Crayons using their ability to pocket Town players? I want to revisit that slot, because RTPs suspicions are still in the back of my head. And we know Duchess/Cookie Monster, and Italiano are Town, and so the escalation and doggedness behind that argument still bothers me.

[Momrangal]

Why so you keep doing this thing of shutting me out instead of actually trying to gauge my actual headspace?

Why do you keep going

NOPE YOU'RE GETTING ELIMINATED THATS IT THATS ALL

Instead of trying to talk things out

No one is holding suspicion of you other than me, why am I so dangerous that you want to not talk to me?

[Andresvmb]

No one is holding suspicion of you other than me, why am I so dangerous that you want to not talk to me?

Maxwell is voting you.

[Andresvmb]

Green Crayons has a lot of votes on Town actually. Cookie Monster, obviously midwaybear.

[Momrangal]

Ok?

Pedit: so what?

[Momrangal]

Who should be scum in my perspective?

[Andresvmb]

Green Crayons has a lot of votes on Town actually. Cookie Monster, obviously midwaybear.

RTP, voted for Dunn in the early part of D2 which I have been pointing is a slight rehash of D1.

[Andresvmb]

Ok?

Pedit: so what?

So then I’m not the only suspecting you.

[Andresvmb]

Ok?

Pedit: so what?

So then I’m not the only suspecting you.

It directly contradicts what you said. maxwell has also directly expressed the reasoning behind their SR I believe.

[Andresvmb]

So, remind me again why Battle Mage was obvtown? Because I hate the hell out of that hammer and everything momrangal has done.

Sorry, midwaybear. I should've done better.

Here.

[Momrangal]

I

am the only person suspecting

you

How does his suspicion of me contradict that?

[Andresvmb]

Why so you keep doing this thing of shutting me out instead of actually trying to gauge my actual headspace?

You have me as Scum. I’ve engaged you. As far as I can tell, you haven’t changed your mind about me. So why would I keep bothering trying to convince you of the obvious?

[Andresvmb]

I

am the only person suspecting

you

How does his suspicion of me contradict that?

I thought you were saying I was the only person suspecting you.

And honestly your suspicion of me is just bad play or Scum at this point. Reconsider your stances thinking I’m Town and I’ll pay attention to you. Otherwise you’re just wasting my time.

[Momrangal]

I mean if you call two seconds of engagement actual engagement sure.

Every time I try to get you to talk deeper about things, and go deep into it you are turning around and going "nope fuck this"

If I am wrong about you, you know I need to engage to get it cleared up

Pedir: that's what I'm trying to do but you keep shutting it down. Why should anyone get a pass at this stage of the game anyhow?

[RLotus]

Spoiler:

Post 871 is interesting. I think it favors RLotus town. he's openly musing about whether two other players already know each other's alignment.

if RL!scum, then he knows their alignment and presumably they are not s/s (otherwise... just why point that out?). So maybe he's trying to push suspicion for interactions without a flip? But that should rightly go nowhere until a flip, and then (presuming t/t) would definitely go nowhere. plus we all get to yell at him for trying to make associative calls before a flip, and his reads might take a hit in credibility. bad for RL!scum.

Now if Baltar/Datisi is s/t, maybe it's a long-term backup strat if the s gets flipped? Maybe.

My other thought is that maybe RL!scum would be trying to signal to scum a potential t/t connection (mason, etc.)--but all PTs have daytalk, so no need to signal in thread.


not impossible for RL!scum to make 871, but think it more likely points to town just because I don't know what it gets RL!scum and seems to be more negative.

What I'm noticing with VPB is that he seems to be sitting by and looking for mis elims where he can get them, whilst being non committal to his reads (except Dunn), as if to avoid looking bad when they flip town.

There are certainly a couple of posts that are gauging interest on different players (not all of them, i'm not sure why you grouped some of these posts with others), but isn't your theory scum AI only if all of those players are actually town? So I'm not sure how you get that point at this stage.

Also,

After rereading IVD, maybe I was being unfair at a couple points. I can't say I town read him exactly, but I'll give him breathing room and keep evaluating there

UNVOTE:

Yeah I’m feeling VPB today

VOTE: VPB

What changed here?

Umm I suppose he could throw one of his partners in there as well. The behavior looks bad + his lack of solving effort. I'm not necessarily trying to put the whole puzzle together at this point, as it were.

fair enough on not trying to solve, but it was an initial problem that came to mind when i read his posts with my Baltar!scum goggles on

i'm not seeing the AI that can be gleaned from taking these posts altogether. several posts are him having conversations about game events/players, which is productive even if not in itself AI. there's a couple of "what do you think about X" posts, which isn't damming but certainly would be if that was the majority of his play.

i hear you on him not really leading the charge on folks outside of Dunn, but i'm not seeing how that's AI when he's got these side conversations about other players/events. doesn't seem to be a lack of solving effort in my view, just that you read his effort as suspicious.

You are taking advantage of the scumreads other people have rather than solving the game on your own. The easiest example to see is your absolute lack of progression of RTP. You kinda just were not talking about them then suddenly you scumread them after BM puts a vote there. Also, you looked willing to do the same with elements and myself. That's what is scummy.

I'm curious: did you have problems with Baltar's play before his RTP vote, and that was the last straw and so you laid out this case against Baltar, or did his RTP vote bother you so you went to go back and look to see if there was something suspicious about his play, and that's when you saw these problems that led to your long post?

Initially, I read these side questions/him pushing people from the side as towny. It wasn't until his interactions with BM did I realize that he kept poking at slots without trying to solve them.

i'd do elements today if we could get a majority

I'm listening. What are you seeing?

Also is dunn at E-1 now?

there is a distinct lack of progression in RLotus' ISO. Started with townreads on RTP and Duchess...and they remain the top 2 townreads. and has been only really focussed on Italiano since a few days ago.

I have been thinking this as well. It is very one dimensional.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: RTP

Down2Clown

This series of posts in particular

Seeing these again, I agree that these three posts you quoted here *are* weird. I can see the theory that this is Baltar!scum trying to gin up a mis-elim by making someone else (BM) take the lead.**

But I don't see that in his earlier play, including the other posts you have quoted. So I don't agree that there's a unified presentation of Baltar!scum play in trying to get others to take the lead to a mis-elim.

**BM came into this game as super-town, though. And BM doesn't really get controlled, so I doubt Baltar was going to nudge BM somewhere he didn't want to go. So I'm not too hot on this theory actually fitting this situation.

I think these posts make GC seem very towny after I started seeing VPB town. He was trying to bring two people he thought were town together and I don't see much reason for him to do this as scum.

[Andresvmb]

RLotus Green Crayons is not very Towny. If they were, RTP would not have suspected them. And you can’t get away from all the bad votes. Some discussion around two slots is not good enough to outweigh all of that.

[Momrangal]

Didn't Koba Express a scum read on you and well?

[Andresvmb]

I mean if you call two seconds of engagement actual engagement sure.

Every time I try to get you to talk deeper about things, and go deep into it you are turning around and going "nope fuck this"

If I am wrong about you, you know I need to engage to get it cleared up

Pedir: that's what I'm trying to do but you keep shutting it down. Why should anyone get a pass at this stage of the game anyhow?

You haven’t asked me any questions. You’ve only made bad meta arguments against me. I don’t know what more engagement you were expecting from me.