Mini Normal 2197: Noraaland ~Endgame~

[JacksonVirgo]

In the beginning, in the beginning has posted first and in the beginning, in the beginning was voted

VOTE: in the beginning

[JacksonVirgo]

Nice pagetop, also fuck everyone in this game I am so toxic right now >:C

[JacksonVirgo]

Sorry for disappearing, girlfriend got her Ps (or license so she can drive on her own for anyone who doesn't know the Aussie system)

[JacksonVirgo]

I can see the MC rvs wagon being all town, but if scum did decide to join the RVS wagon, I would look at either Gamma or titus.

I would probably say Titus or Statue imo instead of Gamma

[JacksonVirgo]

Oh, good catch Italiano. E-1 this early is a bit much.

I agree there is likely scum there, will take a look in a bit. Any thoughts on who looks like a culprit there?

Vote on Ari now srs.

VOTE: Ari

Murder do you have thoughts on your wagon

A couple yeah. I think Flea is ever so lean towny. You and Gamma get a pass. The vote I'd be most worried about is pikachu but I'd probably do that as town, so it's fine. ITB I am just going to sort later.

What do you make of Titus Infinity?

Could you explain the reasonings behind this vote?

[JacksonVirgo]

I'm not really sure what to think of MURDERCAT's hero solve. It seems not to jive with what his perspective should be, namely that scum deliberately wagoned him to claim. Which would mean at least one of Statue and Beginning should be in his solve. Also, Ari being in his solve is entirely opportunistic. If MURDERCAT is scum and the rule of 3 applies then Infinity should be scum as well.

Isn't a hero solve generally something you give a stab in the dark? But yeah I think you're strongly town from this

Also sorry for the inactivity, had irl issues going on including being sick

[JacksonVirgo]

VOTE: infinity

Scum wagon ahoy

This vote gives me the heebie jeebies, no idea why

[JacksonVirgo]

I don't like the top wagons.

We should just
VOTE: No Lim

instead.

Yeah this is just bad, I like my vote where it is

[JacksonVirgo]

Actually

I don't think I like titus this game

Oh why's that? I am going to disagree with you here

[JacksonVirgo]

Yeah, no.

VOTE: In the beginning

Toog this is weak :/
ITB isn't going to be that transparent as scum

That's the whole rabbit hole of TSTBS and that's an actual stupid way to read someone, especially when we have no idea who they are, well at least I have no idea who they are.

[JacksonVirgo]

ok ok
I think you should reconsider Infinity though, I think he is too afraid to switch his read on me and I don't think town him would be SRing me

I think just from Murder 'hard-defending' ITB here I think they're not aligned if one flips scum.

[JacksonVirgo]

I detest ITB's no elim vote, but I feel like that's an easy miselim to jump on away from Infinity.

I would have to agree to this if Infinity ends up flipping scum, otherwise I don't think it's much to look into for now.

[JacksonVirgo]

Oh, good catch Italiano. E-1 this early is a bit much.

I agree there is likely scum there, will take a look in a bit. Any thoughts on who looks like a culprit there?

Gamma or Titus. Mayyyyybe statue

I like this for scum as well, this seems like a weak way to try and fake reading.

[JacksonVirgo]

Ur scummy

Then why aren't you voting him?

Yeah I'm pretty set on town!titus and scum!farrar
I am losing confidence in my early read on ITB

VOTE: Farrar

[JacksonVirgo]

VOTE: Johnny

VOTE: johnny

ew

Is this a general rejection of the wagon or of the sequential votes.

[JacksonVirgo]

Something to note, I do not remember Farrar acting like this in any game at all so that's giving me *some* pause over their wagon.

[JacksonVirgo]

That's E-2 I believe

[JacksonVirgo]

I'm not willing to give JV a free pass this game

Ahaha is this because you're paranoid about the bears with guns game?

[JacksonVirgo]

... I'd forgot about that ¬_¬


damnit now I'm paranoid!

>:)

Im at work so Ill yeet my way back here after and/or on breaks

[JacksonVirgo]

I wanna TR the effort from a new player, I don't agree that what you pointed out are scumtells for a new player

Effort is not telling of alignment

[JacksonVirgo]

I wanna TR the effort from a new player, I don't agree that what you pointed out are scumtells for a new player

Effort is not telling of alignment

Especially when reading a newer or unknown player

[JacksonVirgo]

more good posting by jacko

You're making me blush

[JacksonVirgo]

Is agreeing scummy for Aristophanes? I’ve never played them.

It just reads as fake to me. Why wouldn't Ari look and decide who is scummy? I feel like those sorts of questions come from scum more often than not.
Also "good catch" reads as kinda fake when it comes directly after a VC lol

I'll have to look back and find what post you're talking about to fully understand, I forget

[JacksonVirgo]

Oh, good catch Italiano. E-1 this early is a bit much.

Either what this is referring to has been yeeted by the Host or I am not following

[JacksonVirgo]

Howdy Titus, we meet again

[JacksonVirgo]

especially when we have no idea who they are, well at least I have no idea who they are

I do know who they are

And by all means defend them for TSTBS if you know who they are and know it's NAI or Town!AI, but you

cannot

say the argument is weak when someone who doesn't know them says that they're scummy for it.

[JacksonVirgo]

especially when we have no idea who they are, well at least I have no idea who they are

I do know who they are

And by all means defend them for TSTBS if you know who they are and know it's NAI or Town!AI, but you

cannot

say the argument is weak when someone who doesn't know them says that they're scummy for it.

That is unless the logic is weak at it's core, which it wasn't as pushing no-lynch is a generally scummy thing to do especially on D1 with no alterior reason to do so.

[JacksonVirgo]

[6] JohnnyFarrar: Aristophanes, Titus, Infinity 324, Gamma Emerald, JacksonVirgo, StatueSurfer [E-1]

I have words about this once I finish catching up, probably bad if I say it now and I will also likely forget so poke me about it if so

[JacksonVirgo]

My vote is serious and my tone is not

What does this mean?

---

In The Beginning: That vote to, quite deliberately, put MC at E-1 was scummy af. The no-elimination vote is super weird, but doesn't make any sense for scum to do, and I don't he's done anything scummy since. Probably town.

Scummy as fuck, does things that don't make sense, and then done nothing scummy for a while = probably town?

---

I feel like Johnny is just rolling over, which seems like something town do more often than scum.

Are you saying you TR both Statue and Farrar?

[JacksonVirgo]

Oh misread, you SR Statue yeah?

[JacksonVirgo]

Energy levels change. I don't think that is a particularly strong reading mechanism.

I'm starting to get a gut town ping from Toog

[JacksonVirgo]

Spoiler:

Stop! Hammer time!

VOTE: Noraa

@Mods please spoiler their post

[JacksonVirgo]

Because I don't like inactive players, and I SRed Ari, Titus, and Johnny partially for activity, so I thought I should make clear I was being charitable to let him get more activity in before reading.

-- snipped some content --

Jackson seems just okay... I'll call that null.

This seems like a cheap out when called out.

[JacksonVirgo]

[6] JohnnyFarrar: Aristophanes, Titus, Infinity 324, Gamma Emerald, JacksonVirgo, StatueSurfer [E-1]

I have words about this once I finish catching up, probably bad if I say it now and I will also likely forget so poke me about it if so

Back to this now that I've caught up.

I am not the greatest fan of Statue's vote here, and I am currently trying to gauge, if they're scum, if it's an opportunistic vote or a bus type of vote. I'll have to look back

[JacksonVirgo]

Spoiler: Statue Vote Analysis, big boi

My Stuff in Bolded Red

This is not really in any particular order, so bear with me please <3

@INB: Okay, if you want an analysis of the MC wagon, there's, like a 90% chance or whatever of scum being on the wagon. Except that's assuming it's random, when it probably isn't. Frankly, it's almost exactly as helpful to say that "there is definitely scum

off

the wagon," so I don't see any special reason to focus on people on the wagon vs people off the wagon, or to use it as a reason to SR anyone.

Anyway

In The Beginning:

That vote to, quite deliberately, put MC at E-1 was scummy af. The no-elimination vote is super weird, but doesn't make any sense for scum to do, and I don't he's done anything scummy since. Probably town.

This was way after Murder said the exact same thing 115, it seems overly sheepish in theway that they're trying to claim it as their own logic.

Infinity:

I really think scum would've dropped a baseless read by this point, rather than riding it and risking making themselves look scummier in the process. He's making some effort to generate reads, so I'll say this is probably townie.

Another weak town-read, I have a feeling these are all going to be mostly town-reads since I am getting the read they're scum not wanting to push bad and get wagoned for it.

Murdercat:

I think everything he said during the exchange with Infinity was reasonable. Accusing Infinity of lying about his read strength... that's a bit scummy, but considering there is no actual logic to the read to start with, it's understandable. Has also raised a couple decent points. Null.

Scummy yet understandable, sounds legit. I think this is a weak read to try and discredit Murder

Toogeloo:

Has done basically nothing... although given his RL situation, that might be understandable. I'll need to see more though, and I don't like what I've seen so far.

Fencesitting null read like Murder but worse.

Aristophanes:

So I agree with MC that the "Good catch" thing felt kinda fake, so when I was writing this post I took a look at Ari's ISO and... holy crap. There are several questions, but no analysis/follow-up on the answers and reads on maybe three people. I think this is all pretty suss.

This reaction to them yet you chose to vote Johnny for fluff and an OMGUS vote.

Flea the Magician:

Well, Titus, since you asked, here and here are examples of people overestimating Flea's towniness IMO (yes, the second one is after my post. That's because I misinterpreted #106 as Mara saying Flea was town for #105, rather than the reality that Mara was responding to Italiano's #104)

With that out of the way, I disagree that Flea is nearly as town as some think. #69 is what Italiano TRed them on, but I think it looks kind of "fake townie" like a little too cutesy "oh ha ha that was close!" (in fact, that's basically what the post says, and it rubs me the wrong way), and I definitely agree with ITB that scum would be glad to not be a townie's turbowagon. #105 has Flea

outright saying that they are going to lurk.

They do have "reads" on a handful of people, but most of the posts even since RVS are just fluff. I think scum!Flea could easily be trying to skate by doing the bare minimum.

The slot's null to me, by the way. Just noting that Flea is definitely not a lock for town.

This is just mostly fluff to me, a lot of "logic" to land into a null and then continues to say they're not a lock for town, which is redundant

Gamma Emerald:

Not quite sure what to make of him...

appears

to be trying to make an effort to analyze and question, yet kind of has Ari's problem of lack of follow-up (I don't see any attempt at follow-up to #176 or #179 for example). Also was mostly on Ari before switching to Johnny (although for understandable reasons). Null.

You say they're doing understandable stuff, yet put them in null? Doesn't seem like a townie mindset, at least to me.

ItalianoVD:

I had a sneaking suspicion that Italiano might be scum trying to misdirect town toward MC's wagon, but after reading his ISO I don't really think so now. Scum would probably be trying to push those people regardless of whether any of them had posted or not, as that would give great towncred. That being said, this slot is null.

You're literally saying you're town-leaning them with your logic yet say they're null?

Titus:

Titus' posts, by and large, don't seem very substantive to me. There's a weak (her word, not mine) read on Murdercat, a naked vote on Infinity that's basically a sheep of Mara, and then a jump onto Johnny (which is very understandable, and which I'm going to be doing at the end of this post, but could also be an easy miselim for scum to push). She does correctly point out why my second post was terrible, but that's it. Scumlean.

They're literally saying they were correctly called out for a terrible post, yet scum-leaned? Why is their posts being nonsubstantive make them a SL instead of everyone else like Toog who you put in a null? Not a solving mindset

Jackson Virgo:

No read, because they've had barely any activity up until now and I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

Why am I different than any other player who you've null-read for lack of content.

Momrangal:

Appears to be making effort to make reads and ask question (but, again, lack of follow-up) and even question her own reads, so seems more town than scum to me. On the MC townread: I don't SR him, but I do think meta is BS.

Why do you think Infinity is scum, by the way?

I don't really have a comment on this one

JohnnyFarrar:

Mostly has fluff posts except for, like, maybe three. Which are mostly terrible anyway; #161 makes #203 look ironic af, because 203 calls Gamma lazy for voting Johnny... while 161, as far as I can tell, picks three random names from the MC wagon, which was already looked at with suspicion, and with no reasoning. After 161 is a bunch of fluff, a naked read on Infinity, and an OMGUS on Gamma. I don't see the slightest attempt at questioning or analysis, so there's nothing townie here as far as I can tell.

Back to my Ari comment, why is this a stronger read when your reaction to them was much more extreme than "nothing townie here as far as I can tell" which does not seem as confident as "I took a look at Ari's ISO and... holy crap. "

VOTE: JohnnyFarrar

[JacksonVirgo]

From my analysis there, if they end up flipping scum, one of Johnny/Ari are scum as well as they're either bussing scum!Johnny here to not look bad or being opportunistic to push away from scum!Ari. Just my current thoughts.

[JacksonVirgo]

VOTE: Statue, more confident this will flip scum over Johnny.

[JacksonVirgo]

VOTE: Statue, more confident this will flip scum over Johnny.

Baa

VOTE: Statue

I like the analysis, still not sure if it's scum or just new player but at least I think I'm voting with town

They called Momrangal by Mara so I have a feeling they are an alt but thats a conspiracy theory at best

[JacksonVirgo]

Howdy Titus, we meet again

I am a babysitter.

!!!!

[JacksonVirgo]

Energy levels change. I don't think that is a particularly strong reading mechanism.

I'm starting to get a gut town ping from Toog

This post should be NAI though right?

By itself yeah but I think its their general tone thats pinging me as genuine and townie

[JacksonVirgo]

I feel comfortable putting Jhonny in my town-reads.

Want other people's opinions on Infinity

Ill give this a poke after I finish work, I just hate mobile posting

[JacksonVirgo]

Request: Please don't respond to a single post at a time when catching up. Try to group them into chunks so as to not needlessly clutter the thread.

The reason I don't do that anymore is because it makes me lose concentration too quickly and I end up forgetting everything instantly. If I am responding to a larger post like this one I split things up into a single post though because I'm not a monster.

Be more precise; why do you perceive it as bad? I don't mean bad in a "town win condition" sense, but bad as in "scum would do this" kind of sense.

I do not see it as a town's solving mindset, who would actively be trying to find scum rather than just give in unless it's for the meme like a dude on my old home site does CONSTANTLY which this clearly wasn't.

If you looked, you would find out fairly easily. Anyway, yes, "too scummy to be scum" is a fallacy in a sense, but you seem to be looking at this from a very surface-level perspective. I want you to ask yourself, "What does scum!beginning gain from this?" and to critically evaluate it rather than going "Oh, no elimination is bad. Anyone who suggests something 'bad' is scum. Ergo, beginning is scum."

If I looked into who you are? I don't want to waste mental energy into being likely wrong. I am a big advocator for yeeting anti-town behaviour right off the bat, and "in the beginning" you were the one that was the largest thorn in my side, that may very well be personal bias against no-lynch early-game (as a dude on my old home site CONSTANTLY pushed for it) but it was simply my strongest read at the time, whether it be shallow or otherwise.

I wouldn't call that hard defending. MURDERCAT is simply asking the same thing I'm asking in this post: to think more critically rather than giving a knee-jerk reaction.

That's why I put it in quotes, I didn't know the right words for the current context.

Hadn't you read that post by that point in time? Seems a bit weird you're responding to it now.

Murder linked it to me as I needed the context

Except... it is weak... regardless of meta.

This depends on context for the most part, it is 100% stupid to clear someone for TSTBS, otherwise scum could just yeet themself into a hard SR and be cleared for it, that's putting it bluntly but overall it depends on the context.

[JacksonVirgo]

@Beginning

, why do you have a request to specifically not use the abbrevation of INB, when that's not even an abbrevation of your name. ITB would be

[JacksonVirgo]

I'm here

[JacksonVirgo]

Wassup Jacko. How you feel about the game so far?

Content or enjoyment wise?

[JacksonVirgo]

Eh both

I'm not super into the game yet, but that will likely change near the end of the game but I am definitely more into the game than the start aha. Content wise I feel a few people are the target for everyones attention and I think I am going to spend a little time re-reading a little bit back to expand my reads a little more.

[JacksonVirgo]

No one has died this night !

Day 2 starts now and ends in (expired on 2021-03-08 12:32:59)

Oh hype! I guess that evens out our fortune!

[JacksonVirgo]

Lol what are the chances someone pulled a board games here

I played a game where scum no killed so one of them could claim doc and ride that claim to victory. I think Gamma was there.

And nah, I voted Titus because they had the biggest "i know both these wagons are on townies" energy of anyone yesterday

The tone in these two posts specifically feel TMI, but reading back the wording doesn't suggest that exactly so not sure what to make of it. I'll try to explain this the best I can, not the greatest at explaining these types of pings but this is almost definitely not a natural conclusion most people would fall to when no NK happens. Sure, if it's happened in a past game you could assume it may happen again but this feels like it's almost assuming it's happened.

[JacksonVirgo]

The babysitter claim was totally a meme too, not serious.

Was this referring to a specific post? I can't seem to find where it's aimed at

[JacksonVirgo]

Anyway, this is where I was going with the statue wagon

It was an utterly shit wagon being led by another one of my scum reads and, all the while, there were other slots who were look at with reasons that were just slightly better than the reasons used to wagon hoth Jhonny and Statue. There was very little resistance and I feel like scum played a big hand in getting it pushed

It's relatively easy to say you rejected a town flipped wagon, so if you or anyone is trying to get some cred by that it won't work >:)

Although who specifically was your SR on the wagon, I forget.

[JacksonVirgo]

I like pagetops

I like page shorts...

[JacksonVirgo]

Can we hang Infinity now or...?

No one has never stated a town read on them, and no one seems willing to even look at their direction

Oh that was probably Infinity for the previous question

[JacksonVirgo]

Can we hang Infinity now or...?

No one has never stated a town read on them, and no one seems willing to even look at their direction

Why are you asking for permission instead of just voting

[JacksonVirgo]

Yesterday's lim was clearly a town flip, and no one even bothered to ask for a claim.

Same issue with Momrangal, it's easy to say this in retrospect

[JacksonVirgo]

I am suspecting Statute was quickly run up as a way of saving Johnny.

Who do you think would be the main pushers if that's the case?

[JacksonVirgo]

Italiano you said you hadn't forgotten about me but...

JV what's your read on me? (Also I wasn't on the wagon)

Nothing you have done has pinged me as super townie like usual so null+ around there as I don't really

think

you're scum.

[JacksonVirgo]

Why isn't she confbiased town

Actually I like this a lot

[JacksonVirgo]

I am keen to see the VCA from Titus before I really commit to anything.

Either that or I summon the faerie vomit machine and start colour coding everything.

Why exactly does them not posting the VCA make any difference to anything?

[JacksonVirgo]

I'm gonna move MC up to my strongest townlean.

Do you have TRs at all or is MC simply your strongest town atm

[JacksonVirgo]

Johnny, Titus, and MURDERCAT are town.
JacksonVirgo and Infinity are scum.

Unsure on the third one.

Cool, care to explain?

[JacksonVirgo]

VOTE: JV they're giving me busy-worky vibes and playing it safe more than they usually do as town.

Where is italiano

Busy worky as Ive been busy working? Am confused

[JacksonVirgo]

The babysitter claim was totally a meme too, not serious.

Was this referring to a specific post? I can't seem to find where it's aimed at

Howdy Titus, we meet again

I am a babysitter.

Yeah i know thr origins you just pulled the explaination out of thin air

[JacksonVirgo]

Titus can you make sure to do an objective VCA and not a confbias one

[JacksonVirgo]

I'm not really sure how Jackson missed my babysitter semi-shit post and what I was doing there given a) we faked it together resulting in a scum victory recently, b) there was a no kill, and c) the phrase babysitter was findable in my ISO.

I did notice it day 1, I quoted it as well. What I don't understand is where you decided to randomly explain why it was a joke.

[JacksonVirgo]

Jacksonvirgo *
MURDERCAT
JohnnyFarrar
Momrangal
ItalianoVD

Titus
Toogeloo

Aristophanes *
Flea The Magician
Salsabil Faria
In the beginning

---/---

Infinity

This is what in working off of, in all its terrible glory

What do the stars mean?

[JacksonVirgo]

Strong disagree, especially when compared to their normal town game

They're normally all over the place and tunnely, and disengaged until something catches their attention. They're kind of disengaged here, but trying to appear engaged, which is very out-of-character

I may have to reread bears, basically it feels like JV is playing safe like they did there, and there's a tone that I can't quite describe but it feels like fake curiosity, and that reminds me of bears too. (JV uses they/them)

I definitely did NOT play safe in bears lmfaooo

[JacksonVirgo]

Yeah I skimmed their ISO before looking at their alignment, and I leaned scum. They're more relaxed in that game, but there's a certain je-ne-sais-quoi about JV's town game. Generally it involves tunnelling.

I don't usually like bringing rl into games but I've been having a tough break at home/work so I am not really in the same mood as before. I completely abandoned all other FM sites/servers because of everything + other issues so I am sorry that I'm not fully myself here but I am trying

[JacksonVirgo]

I'm not really sure how Jackson missed my babysitter semi-shit post and what I was doing there given a) we faked it together resulting in a scum victory recently, b) there was a no kill, and c) the phrase babysitter was findable in my ISO.

I did notice it day 1, I quoted it as well. What I don't understand is where you decided to randomly explain why it was a joke.

No kill.

Babysitter claim.

I wanted to clarify that any hypothetical no kill wasn't from my babysitter claim. Also, not quite sure I buy this.

You don't buy what, it's exactly what I fuckin' meant

Howdy Titus, we meet again

I am a babysitter.

!!!!

The babysitter claim was totally a meme too, not serious.

Was this referring to a specific post? I can't seem to find where it's aimed at

[JacksonVirgo]

Meanwhile more interesting pushes like Titus and momma are just ignored

I'm warming up to them both, Titus is almost never this blunt and Momrangal is being slimy in the sense of trying to seek validation before doing anything.

[JacksonVirgo]

Titus is almost never this blunt

Not true.

Choosing not to respond to where I proved you wrong? This is so obviously scum, and if they are then Johnny is pretty much confirmed town imo.

VOTE: Titus

[JacksonVirgo]

:O

[JacksonVirgo]

If you need my permission to release stuff, I give permission.

[JacksonVirgo]

I don't really see the use of the Ascetic role so that was essentially useless
JK was alright, but combined with an Alien they become conflicting claims.
Backup + Normal gunsmith being on opposite sides makes the setup swingy and also allows scum to have an extremely solid fake-claim if they claimed it prior to the backup.
Vigilante is fine.

[JacksonVirgo]

Asectic was to give scum a hint towards the vigilane (yeah, that didn't work out) , and just a bit to work with in case gunsmith goes early

yes, that was the point, but both had very different "plastyles" though

yes, that was the point episode II, although i disagree that the town gunsmith could've gotten many checks in really, apart from an extreme case of scum fucking up

Ascetic has nothing to do with Vigilante, so that's a lapse in judgement in believing it would hint at that imo. It's still swingy to have backup and base in different alignments, if the mafia died D1 town would be stacked.

[JacksonVirgo]

Activated ascetic protects from everything but vigilante, whille commuter protects from everything, i belived that the fact that this wasn't a commuter was a decent enough hint as it's a way more simple / logical role to put

and if the mafia has their important role die D1, that seems normal to me that it goes not-so-great for the afterwards

Again, that's a lapse in judgement as there's no actual way a thought process like that ever appears when receiving an Ascetic role. If the Mafia loses an important role, Town receiving that role all but seals the mafia's fate.

Jailkeeper/Alien/Vigilante/Gunsmith.
All of which are powerful, it's swingy.

[JacksonVirgo]

there are gates on those roles though

Doesn't matter, it's still strong and swingy.

[JacksonVirgo]

Again, based on my outdated setup intuitions, this would be balanced if you gave town a 2-shot cop

Oh god no ahaha



10v3
Vigilante shots + cops can clear literally half the town + the JKer/Alien and the possibility of a town Gunsmith appearing.