Newbie 2062: The Hubble Telescope - End!

[VFP]

T3
Ivyeo
Demainer
orctin
Rathe

2 scum here.

[JacksonVirgo]

Andante claimed Doctor.
Rational and Rathe both want to wagon them anyway and make Town not cc if there is one.
It's been a general 2v2 attack from Rational/Rathe and myself and Andante. With us trying to explain how stupid it is to not ask for ccs here.

Rational basically choosing to fall into confbias while telling everyone else it's confbias that they are not wagoning Andante. I say plenty of logic as to why ccing here is the best play, why Andante is likely town etc but they choose to actively ignore that every single time.

Unlucky for them we aren't going to lim the Doc claim.

I'll also stand strong that Qndante claims early as town PR. I am not going.to discuss further on this though.

Who's scum for you Jackson?

I'm confident on Orc, unsure on anybody else at this point since the focus has shifted to Rathe/Andante/Rational and myself heavily the past while

[JacksonVirgo]

T3
Ivyeo
Demainer
orctin
Rathe

2 scum here.

Would scum!rathe actually try to keep a vote on a PR claim? Assuming Andante is Town, as if Andante is scum Rathe is a valid partner.

[VFP]

Andante seems like real doc here. And I think that would explain the initial panic and bad reaction.
Rational might be town but has flawed logic. VOTE: Rathe

I like this T3 vote.
Rathe goes high up for me as without claiming and just standing behind Rational makes them safe for tomorrow on a Doc flip.

[VFP]

Would scum!rathe actually try to keep a vote on a PR claim? Assuming Andante is Town, as if Andante is scum Rathe is a valid partner.

Yeah I can see that happening. Rathe wasn't as vocal as Rational.
Doc flip means we lim Rational who flips town and then that's 2 days later...

A scum flip would highly suggest Rathe as Doc anyway so not claiming here isn't something I see town doing.

I also don't think Andante and Rathe ever become to scum pair here. There's no need to bus your buddy on a PR claim like that. 8v1 night 1 is nearly always a loss for scum.
Not to mention that scum then rule out a column possibility by admitting Doc is a possible role.

[VFP]

T3-Rathe-Jackson - so i need to look at these 3 - right now i'm betting there is a scum in here - and might be the better play - we eliminate one of them - scum can decide to eliminate Rational tonight just to make the game thread less aggressive (and we probably would all shoot him if we could, lets be honest) - and we carry on the next day

This would suggest that if scum, so is T3.
But I could be wrong here.

@orctin

Can you touch base on this more?
Let's go over why these 3 are scum?

[VFP]

VOTE: Rathe

This is E-1

Comes back, still voting, no CC

Is this town to anyone?

[VFP]

we definitely have at least 1 scum in clasko t3 orc ivy.

Demainer looks pretty town to me.

it outs the setup for scum, not the prs. they still need to hunt for pr

This is just town minded here.

[orctin]

i think at this point even if Rathe isn't eliminated Day 1 scum will have hard time not night killing them the coming night

You are seriously obsessed with the scum NK. Why would that be

Not sure what your asking - where i play scum get 1 kill every night - as a player what they do each night does effect things so why would i not be concerned?

[orctin]

T3-Rathe-Jackson - so i need to look at these 3 - right now i'm betting there is a scum in here - and might be the better play - we eliminate one of them - scum can decide to eliminate Rational tonight just to make the game thread less aggressive (and we probably would all shoot him if we could, lets be honest) - and we carry on the next day

This would suggest that if scum, so is T3.
But I could be wrong here.

@orctin

Can you touch base on this more?
Let's go over why these 3 are scum?

Right now I dont think Rathe is scum - his vote after the doctor claim was too immediate and to telling now
Jackson - He started out slow but has come on lately - he's making logical post and discussions so i have no reason to question his alignment at this time
Which to me leaves T3 as very probably Scum

Far as those questioning myself - i'm town - You dont see me trying to jump on a vote right now in trying to save myself - i'm trying to let town sort our who would be the good choice today at this point

Also - Dont think we aren't looking your way as well - the player you were replacing was on the questionable list of a few people - your doing a good job swaying those thoughts at this time - we will have to see long right

Right now i think T3 is the best vote to eliminate - Andante and Rational need to get off each other and look to better choices - and i have no idea why i have pinged Jackson's radar - but town needs to come together on a vote and one we all or at least majority agree on

[orctin]

Vote: T3

There - to clarify my position

[VFP]

Which to me leaves T3 as very probably Scum

Why is T3 scum then?

Far as those questioning myself - i'm town - You dont see me trying to jump on a vote right now in trying to save myself - i'm trying to let town sort our who would be the good choice today at this point

So why should I consider you as town than scum pretending this for credit?

Also - Dont think we aren't looking your way as well

Scare tactics won't make me back down for the record.
I'm not here to look town to you. I'm putting scum in the seat today.
You are one of 5 players that can be scum.

[VFP]

Vote: T3

There - to clarify my position

Great, at least that tells me that you weren't only trying to distance with T3.
So let me hear the case on why T3 is scum. I think I have enough experience with T3 to know what people should wrongly see as scum posts.

[Demainer]

If there's no CC O guess it's 2-goon setup and she hit the jackpot with Town's response.

As explained earlier, Goon/Goon means doctor will be cced in every possible situation. They know this. The only possibility where the scumteam decides to fakeclaim doc is if we have a newbie/newbie scumteam that panicked early on with the constant pushing, and is trying to get out of the current situation with an early bus. Which means the most likely partner is probably also either rathe or rational. rational wouldn't make sense because he was the one who created this entire situation in the first place, necessitating the doc claim, which leaves rathe. rathe wouldn't make sense either because an se would know better than to tell their scummate to fakeclaim when it's not even close to e-1. So, on this alone, andante can't possibly be faking it, since no one has partner equity with andante if she's faking it.

[Demainer]

2-goon setup is 2/3 probability of nobody CCing Doc eben when demanded to... It's perfect fakeclaim.

can you expand on this?

i really can't understand the point you're trying to make here.

[orctin]

I doubt that a real doc claims with 2 votes. This feels like scum knowing they wil die and drawing out PRs early.

Demainer looking townie. JV/Andante may actually be a viable scumteam.

Andante's entire reads have been based on who scumreads her and she has had zero input outside of that. Then when pressure is applied she defaults to AtE, and then a PR claim.

I doubt that a real doc claims with 2 votes. This feels like scum knowing they wil die and drawing out PRs early.

Andante seems like real doc here. And I think that would explain the initial panic and bad reaction.
Rational might be town but has flawed logic. VOTE: Rathe

T3 seems to be playing both sides of the fence here - Andante is scum, Cant be real doc, is real doc, votes for rathe but doesn't really followup on the logic of Rathe's vote. T3 been on a scum side most game and hasn't give much reason to put town side - so when i reduced to those 3 i mentioned before and process of elimination - T3 stands out to me

[JacksonVirgo]

If there's no CC O guess it's 2-goon setup and she hit the jackpot with Town's response.

As explained earlier, Goon/Goon means doctor will be cced in every possible situation. They know this. The only possibility where the scumteam decides to fakeclaim doc is if we have a newbie/newbie scumteam that panicked early on with the constant pushing, and is trying to get out of the current situation with an early bus. Which means the most likely partner is probably also either rathe or rational. rational wouldn't make sense because he was the one who created this entire situation in the first place, necessitating the doc claim, which leaves rathe. rathe wouldn't make sense either because an se would know better than to tell their scummate to fakeclaim when it's not even close to e-1. So, on this alone, andante can't possibly be faking it, since no one has partner equity with andante if she's faking it.

That's also wrong.

There's a 1/3 chance that a doctor fake-claim succeeds in a Goon/Goon setup. I know this because I've done it before

[JacksonVirgo]

If there's no CC O guess it's 2-goon setup and she hit the jackpot with Town's response.

As explained earlier, Goon/Goon means doctor will be cced in every possible situation. They know this. The only possibility where the scumteam decides to fakeclaim doc is if we have a newbie/newbie scumteam that panicked early on with the constant pushing, and is trying to get out of the current situation with an early bus. Which means the most likely partner is probably also either rathe or rational. rational wouldn't make sense because he was the one who created this entire situation in the first place, necessitating the doc claim, which leaves rathe. rathe wouldn't make sense either because an se would know better than to tell their scummate to fakeclaim when it's not even close to e-1. So, on this alone, andante can't possibly be faking it, since no one has partner equity with andante if she's faking it.

That's also wrong.

There's a 1/3 chance that a doctor fake-claim succeeds in a Goon/Goon setup. I know this because I've done it before

That's where there is a Town Cop.

[Demainer]

T3-Rathe-Jackson-Andante-Rational

The 2 scummies are most likely of these 5

The Doc claim - I can understand it from both sides, Andante seems to a person who doesn't do a lot of arguing in the way this day has gone, and i see a point of frustration for her (and sadly this is why a lot of new people dont stick with mafia cause these types or arguments happen a lot, and are part of the game) - Taking this into consideration - if my read on Andante is correct - then even as scum i dont think she would fake claim doctor, she would just say "fuck it, i'm scum, eliminate me so i get having to deal with rational" - So i actually think she's telling the truth - If she's not then she made a hell of a play for someone that "appears frustrated easy"

I would love to eliminate Rational - just cause i disapprove of the playstyle, you can be argumentative and aggressive, but he takes it to a whole nother level it seems, that's why i original voted for him, cause this is more a bully playstyle than anything - sorry but just my thoughts. But does that make him scum, I'm still unsure of him cause he totally could be.

T3-Rathe-Jackson - so i need to look at these 3 - right now i'm betting there is a scum in here - and might be the better play - we eliminate one of them - scum can decide to eliminate Rational tonight just to make the game thread less aggressive (and we probably would all shoot him if we could, lets be honest) - and we carry on the next day

This reasoning is really weird, why would you base our elim today on who scum will kill tonight? Not town at all.

[Demainer]

Reading back Rathe's immediate vote on Andante after her Doctor claim is concerning - i think at this point even if Rathe isn't eliminated Day 1 scum will have hard time not night killing them the coming night - it was too quick a reaction to not do so, which if true would make Andante scum. It's the only logic to Rathe's quick vote i can see.

I mean even a scum player should have a pause to the claim instead of the quick vote.

Lampshading to the max, you know you slipped in the previous post, and now you're covering it up by doubling down.

[Demainer]

VOTE: orctin

[JacksonVirgo]

Catching up now

[orctin]

Reading back Rathe's immediate vote on Andante after her Doctor claim is concerning - i think at this point even if Rathe isn't eliminated Day 1 scum will have hard time not night killing them the coming night - it was too quick a reaction to not do so, which if true would make Andante scum. It's the only logic to Rathe's quick vote i can see.

I mean even a scum player should have a pause to the claim instead of the quick vote.

Lampshading to the max, you know you slipped in the previous post, and now you're covering it up by doubling down.

Slipped what - i'm just talking - if your taking something as "i slipped" then please allow us to know so the whole town knows there
Cause right now all i'm seeing is sometime pushing the vote to the side instead of looking at the real scum targets

[JacksonVirgo]

Would scum!rathe actually try to keep a vote on a PR claim? Assuming Andante is Town, as if Andante is scum Rathe is a valid partner.

Yeah I can see that happening. Rathe wasn't as vocal as Rational.
Doc flip means we lim Rational who flips town and then that's 2 days later...

A scum flip would highly suggest Rathe as Doc anyway so not claiming here isn't something I see town doing.

I also don't think Andante and Rathe ever become to scum pair here. There's no need to bus your buddy on a PR claim like that. 8v1 night 1 is nearly always a loss for scum.
Not to mention that scum then rule out a column possibility by admitting Doc is a possible role.

By that are you agreeing with me or otherwise? Your wording here is somewhat confusing.
The doctor claimant is NOT flipping today, that's final and even if they did Rational wouldn't be the push post-flip imo.

A frustrated scum!andante could 100% do this play here and Rathe either in coordination or out of opportunistic nature does this in return to either set up a possible Tracker claim (as to why they are refusing to claim) or reap in the town-cred if Andante gets flipped or Masonry claims.

[JacksonVirgo]

There would be no real reason for scum!rathe to vote the PR claim without a reason. So if they do flip red, there's a reason they voted there that is not just "I want the PR gone"