Open 812 Guardians of the Fortress - Game Over

[Briar]

Okay.

(If you did I'm too lazy to go check for myself. :>)

[unwnd]

I've held my tongue a bit when it comes to coordination around who chooses what. I briefly touched upon my own ideals and why I chose my decision, but there a few things that ping me when it comes to everyone's assumptions.

For one, S_S earlier said something along the lines of 'giving reads are bad/help scum' and I never got the chance to understand why he felt that way. I think mechanical talk turns more into an obligation instead of something we can potentially use, so I'm not really getting a good read on the people who are focusing their attention on it (S_S/Lukewarm)

Just in case you missed it S_S

[Lukewarm]

Wall: Me, Unwnd, Absinthe (aye, a repeat of our last game together )

We're not doing this if I have anything to say about it.

I am curious why you would be adamantly against it.

Like the one game the 3 of us played together in, was also my first game with you or unwnd (and my first game on this site period). If we were doing a repeat grouping, I would be a bit more equipped to handle it I think. I would be going in with two players that I have experience with personally, and 2 players I have seen interact together as well. Which is better then me going to the gate (and being IC'ed) with two people I have never played with imo

I really don't need the trauma. Given the reads on the table in that game, I recognise it probably wasn't town-winnable, but it was the first game in over 5 years that I was miselimed in elo, and I'd have to go back nearly another 5 years for another game where I was the game-losing miselim.

You're not townreading me here, so why should I expect a better outcome?

I like this game design because 1) I can't be N1K'd and 2) there are two minigames that don't involve the standard ELO.

But I was townreading you here

[Something_Smart]

Right.

What I actually said was, to the best of my memory, hiding reads

as much as possible

is beneficial to us. Obviously you need to talk about reads to some extent or you can never play the game, but we can e.g. bucket people into town/null/scum without going into detail on how confident those reads are.

The reason is-- and I did say this before-- scum will have either 6 or 15 legal swap actions. Combining that with the Gate reveal, they will have either 12 or 30 different options for what to do at night. They're obviously going to choose the one that they think gives them the best chance to win, and I would assume that they would have a plan for which minigames they wanted to win and how. All of that stuff is predicated on correctly predicting how people are going to act; so, the more unpredictable the townies can be going into D2, the more likely it is that scum will miss a potentially winning swap and execute a losing one instead.

[absinthe]

But I was townreading you here

then I don't understand why you were against briar/anastasia/me in the keep. Can you clarify that?

[unwnd]

I like your heady analysis in trying to make the setup more approachable for town, but I do have questions myself. Don't you think that giving scum a blueprint of our plans is a bit unwise? I think you agree with that in some regard, just differently. You think giving them information in terms of reads will make it so they can manipulate the mini-games more favorly, and see it as 1's and 0's.

the more unpredictable the townies can be going into D2, the more likely it is that scum will miss a potentially winning swap and execute a losing one instead.

This is where our ideals are parallel but not touching.

[Something_Smart]

Don't you think that giving scum a blueprint of our plans is a bit unwise?

Well the alternative is not having a plan, so no.

The only concrete plans we've been talking about are ones involving the Keep; these may have been mistakes to bring up, but it's too late to do anything about it at this point.

[Something_Smart]

Well actually, I guess it depends what you meant. If you meant like saying exactly who we would be voting out in different scenarios, then yeah that's unwise. But if you're just talking about general things like "we want 2 townreads at the Keep" and "we don't want any obvtown at the Gate" I think they're definitely an overall plus.

[unwnd]

I also felt a bit of frustration from you? I don't really take you as someone who gets that way, but something didn't compute with how Ana is approaching the setup. You tried to rebuke her and present your own technicalities and she mostly seemed to ignore them. I'm not going to treat you as if you're just some programming robot without your own emotions, but why was it so important to you to continue to argue with her despite claiming a townread?

[Anastasia]

we dont really lose much this way

I've spent, like, my last three posts disputing this and you're just glossing over them

I didn't find your reasons compelling sorry.

The thing where you said it's better to put all our scum reads at the Gate instead is just irrelevant since unwnd is already at the wall so my team guess if accepted would have to be in the Wall not the gate.

I'd think at least one of Infinity/SS if they are town and are being incorrectly scumread would be happy to prove me wrong by committing to go to the wall.

Infinity has more or less non-engaged with the topic while SS's excuses for why he does not want this feel quite weak.

I know this is gonna sound conf-biasy as fk but I think maybe I did get the team guess right

[unwnd]

Well actually, I guess it depends what you meant. If you meant like saying exactly who we would be voting out in different scenarios, then yeah that's unwise. But if you're just talking about general things like "we want 2 townreads at the Keep" and "we don't want any obvtown at the Gate" I think they're definitely an overall plus.

Yeah I think quoted opinions are very universal, but to get there we would probably have to discuss who is obvtown and who isn't

[Anastasia]

I guess what I'm saying is I was trying to reaction test you/infinity to see if either of you would actually be willing to go to the wall just to prove me wrong but neither of you volunteered to do that so now I feel more convinced I am actually right.

[Lukewarm]

But I was townreading you here

then I don't understand why you were against briar/anastasia/me in the keep. Can you clarify that?

I was against it, because I had a scum lean on Ana before she locked herself in, and as a knee jerk reaction, I thought "I should not let her single handedly decide the make up of the Keep" and almost locked myself in for the sole reason of denying her the set up she wanted. But when I stopped and examined how her suggestion would play out (Post 511), I concluded that even though I did not like the play she made, it was probably coming from town.

Basically, I was thinking about the suggestion in terms of Ana being the person making it, and not in terms of you being in her suggestion.

[Something_Smart]

why was it so important to you to continue to argue with her despite claiming a townread?

well if she's an influential player and likely town, then it matters more that she not be wrong, no?

[Infinity 324]

I'd prefer to go to the gate to maximize our chances of getting 2 scum at the wall, but if my townreads agree I should go to the wall I'll go to the wall.

[Something_Smart]

The thing where you said it's better to put all our scum reads at the Gate instead is just irrelevant since unwnd is already at the wall so my team guess if accepted would have to be in the Wall not the gate.

I changed my mind on that. I want to have all consensus townreads except for two at the Wall, and the remaining Wall players to be consensus scumreads. If that's me, then I am perfectly fine to go there; I already said that I will defer to the louder people on where everyone should go.

[Infinity 324]

I guess what I'm saying is I was trying to reaction test you/infinity to see if either of you would actually be willing to go to the wall just to prove me wrong but neither of you volunteered to do that so now I feel more convinced I am actually right.

Tbh I haven't really thought about specifically who I want to go where (including myself) because I want to wait until I have better reads/we're ready for the day to end.

[unwnd]

why was it so important to you to continue to argue with her despite claiming a townread?

well if she's an influential player and likely town, then it matters more that she not be wrong, no?

I get this and tried to be a bit subtle about it earlier. I don't wanna dicuss anything further until a later point in time if that's alright with you

[Something_Smart]

I guess what I'm saying is I was trying to reaction test you/infinity to see if either of you would actually be willing to go to the wall just to prove me wrong but neither of you volunteered to do that so now I feel more convinced I am actually right.

Volunteered as in actually signed up? Or just said "I'd be willing to go to the Wall"?

[Anastasia]

Hmm. True.

There's just a small part of me that doesn't trust her despite everything because as a player I feel this is the sort of thing she would do as scum so holding her accountable to her willingness to vote someone who's not herself makes me more comfortable with her. Like, I'm pre-emptively neutering her as scum.

But I guess that her willingness to do that only extended to me/absinthe I think?

Like, hm.

I love that you understand me so well <3

[Anastasia]

I guess what I'm saying is I was trying to reaction test you/infinity to see if either of you would actually be willing to go to the wall just to prove me wrong but neither of you volunteered to do that so now I feel more convinced I am actually right.

Volunteered as in actually signed up? Or just said "I'd be willing to go to the Wall"?

yea if your initial reaction to me declaring that I wanted you/infinity at the wall with unwnd was

something along the lines of "sure i'll go to the wall just to prove you wrong"

I would've thought my guess is likely wrong.

[Anastasia]

I do understand the odds of me being exactly right on the composition of three scum is extremely unlikely.

[Something_Smart]

yea if your initial reaction to me declaring that I wanted you/infinity at the wall with unwnd was

something along the lines of "sure i'll go to the wall just to prove you wrong"

I would've thought my guess is likely wrong.

Yeah, that's totally fair.

[absinthe]

But I was townreading you here

then I don't understand why you were against briar/anastasia/me in the keep. Can you clarify that?

I was against it, because I had a scum lean on Ana before she locked herself in, and as a knee jerk reaction, I thought "I should not let her single handedly decide the make up of the Keep" and almost locked myself in for the sole reason of denying her the set up she wanted. But when I stopped and examined how her suggestion would play out (Post 511), I concluded that even though I did not like the play she made, it was probably coming from town.

Basically, I was thinking about the suggestion in terms of Ana being the person making it, and not in terms of you being in her suggestion.

Why are you townreading me in this game?

[Lukewarm]

really I just don't want to be in the same location as you, no hard feelings I swear~ (jkjk)

Wall: Me, Unwnd, Absinthe (aye, a repeat of our last game together )

We're not doing this if I have anything to say about it.

I am become pariah