Open 812 Guardians of the Fortress - Game Over

[unwnd]

Scum doesn't need to work with people, they just need to pretend their arguments and convictions are town-motivated. You both don't really gain anything from being considerate of my slot, therefore I'm going to give less valuable information compared to someone you had to at least fake townread

Therefore I'm going to get* less valuable information

But town should have a genuine interest in sorting you, right? Can you not try to distinguish that? You're confusing me here

I'd like to believe that yes? I've felt very detached from both of you however, even when I was townreading S_S

[Lukewarm]

Spoiler:

Would this game have been harder if scum had scumclaimed and locked themself in the keep day 1, yes or no?

I don't see anyone here who would kamikaze as scum

That includes ana

I would. I would have locked myself into the keep. It's not like I was particularly townread.

That's also not what I asked, I asked if it would be harder, not if scum would actually do it

So what, like a feint? Scumclaim just to prove a point?

...Do you still not understand?

I'm saying that on day 1, mafia would have a greater chance of winning the game if they put someone in the keep.

It 'sacrifices' somebody, but

in reality, that player was lost anyway

, so they're not losing anything. If they don't do that, they'll have to send someone to the keep, and it's very unlikely that the person they send gets picked or even treated as anything other than mafia.

This is what happened here. They let absinthe take the slot, and then infinity got sent over and they confirmed absinthe as to have the least impact because it doesn't matter who of absinthe or infinty was scum if the keep was resolved first by choosing briar or ana, and then that reveals the alignment of infinity and gives an idea on absinthe.

If they had put infinity in during day 1, the day would have probably ended in a 1-1-1 split, or maybe some variation of 2-0-1/0-2-1. The wifom potential would be there, either way, making it a lot harder to figure things out.

Right now there's 2 people being considered in the Gate, 3 people being considered in the Wall, 1 person being considered in the Keep (as scum)

If somebody had sacrificed themself:

There would be 3 people being considered in the Gate, 3 people being considered in the Wall, 1 person being considered in the Keep

I think Dunn believes this to be true :3

I think Dunn believes this to be true

+1

Am losing my general frustration at Dunn.

Reading this again, I also think he might believe this to be true as well, regardless of his alignment.

[absinthe]

Not what I expected.

Not what I wanted.

I saw this as a possibility. Part of the reason I decided against going Keep, and gave it to you. But yeah, lots to process

It was a possibility, yeah, but I thought Briar was far more of a UTR than I was on day 1 and was more likely to be swapped out/IC'd. I spent N1 thinking about Anastasia vs {any/alla yas} in the Keep, though I thought the Gate was more likely to have 2 scum than the Wall.

Personally, I'd rather we solved the Gate first

Tell me about your S_S, catboi reads then.

s_s is towny because he made good points when he said we shouldn't talk anymore, and realizing it was correct for him to hammer the gate without talking.

catboi is close to null but leans scum because he was focused way more on talking about how I was shading ana/briar than what I was actually talking about. Notable is that the scum team completely gave up on winning the keep. Today, catboi talked about flipping the keep first as if it were the most natural thing when I don't believe that is the case, and I think that's calculated

Have you said which you want to flip first? Is it the Gate?

Absin do you really think I'm just being double-bussed lol

heh. It could be worse. You could have to figure out which one to vote.

Would this game have been harder if scum had scumclaimed and locked themself in the keep day 1, yes or no?

I don't see anyone here who would kamikaze as scum

That includes ana

I would. I would have locked myself into the keep. It's not like I was particularly townread.

That's also not what I asked, I asked if it would be harder, not if scum would actually do it

So what, like a feint? Scumclaim just to prove a point?

...Do you still not understand?

I'm saying that on day 1, mafia would have a greater chance of winning the game if they put someone in the keep.

It 'sacrifices' somebody, but

in reality, that player was lost anyway

, so they're not losing anything. If they don't do that, they'll have to send someone to the keep, and it's very unlikely that the person they send gets picked or even treated as anything other than mafia.

This is what happened here. They let absinthe take the slot, and then infinity got sent over and they confirmed absinthe as to have the least impact because it doesn't matter who of absinthe or infinty was scum if the keep was resolved first by choosing briar or ana, and then that reveals the alignment of infinity and gives an idea on absinthe.

If they had put infinity in during day 1, the day would have probably ended in a 1-1-1 split, or maybe some variation of 2-0-1/0-2-1. The wifom potential would be there, either way, making it a lot harder to figure things out.

Right now there's 2 people being considered in the Gate, 3 people being considered in the Wall, 1 person being considered in the Keep (as scum)

If somebody had sacrificed themself:

There would be 3 people being considered in the Gate, 3 people being considered in the Wall, 1 person being considered in the Keep

No, there was always going to be an IC at the Gate.

[Dunnstral]

...Did you completely miss where I said 'but actually no'?

Look at 1170

My issue is that during Day 1, you did not explain the "but actually no." And then multiple people asked you to explain it better, and you just didn't. Instead you dropped out of the conversation until you could lock in the set up.

I am going to go back and read 1170 again, and try my best not to tunnel you over this, but you locking Day 1, without comment, after I asked you ever so nicely to explain it to me, is not a great place for us to be starting today off. Because now, if you are town, the only way we win this game is if you can convince me to over look all of that.

Like, I really wanted to understand you during Day 1

That there's scum in those 3? Logically yes, but it feels like nobody understands what I'm getting at, so actually no.

I got only eyes for you, and I am dying for you to enlighten me.

To be frank, because I considered the keep to be both town, and also had townreads on unwnd and absinthe, I had very little reason to engage further with any of you, s_s, catboi, or infinity, many of which I felt were trying to misrep or at least focus on a part of what I was talking about that I wasn't talking about.

Ana and briar were never the focus for me, I started the conversation by saying 'here's what I would do' and yes it eventually led into 'because this hasn't happened, it's more likely that ana and briar are mafia' but then back to 'mafia likely don't share the same view as me so it's null, and I don't think it's ana/briar without considering that'

[Lukewarm]

Dunn can you explain why you went Wall without consulting anyone?

Because you wanted infinity at the wall, and from my point of view there was very likely 1-2 scum between the two of you

So I forced both S_S and Infinity into the keep to see what would happen. The result is that there was already 1 scum in the wall, and likely the last 2 in the keep

So when you locked yourself in, did you already think that I was one of the scum players?

[Dunnstral]

Have you said which you want to flip first? Is it the Gate?

Yeah, the gate

[Dunnstral]

Dunn can you explain why you went Wall without consulting anyone?

Because you wanted infinity at the wall, and from my point of view there was very likely 1-2 scum between the two of you

So I forced both S_S and Infinity into the keep to see what would happen. The result is that there was already 1 scum in the wall, and likely the last 2 in the keep

So when you locked yourself in, did you already think that I was one of the scum players?

No, I didn't have that level of confidence on unwnd, but I did think there was probably 1 (and only 1) scum between you two. That wasn't guaranteed though, what I was most sure of was that I'd be forcing two scum into the gate.

[Anastasia]

Spoiler:

Would this game have been harder if scum had scumclaimed and locked themself in the keep day 1, yes or no?

I don't see anyone here who would kamikaze as scum

That includes ana

I would. I would have locked myself into the keep. It's not like I was particularly townread.

That's also not what I asked, I asked if it would be harder, not if scum would actually do it

So what, like a feint? Scumclaim just to prove a point?

...Do you still not understand?

I'm saying that on day 1, mafia would have a greater chance of winning the game if they put someone in the keep.

It 'sacrifices' somebody, but

in reality, that player was lost anyway

, so they're not losing anything. If they don't do that, they'll have to send someone to the keep, and it's very unlikely that the person they send gets picked or even treated as anything other than mafia.

This is what happened here. They let absinthe take the slot, and then infinity got sent over and they confirmed absinthe as to have the least impact because it doesn't matter who of absinthe or infinty was scum if the keep was resolved first by choosing briar or ana, and then that reveals the alignment of infinity and gives an idea on absinthe.

If they had put infinity in during day 1, the day would have probably ended in a 1-1-1 split, or maybe some variation of 2-0-1/0-2-1. The wifom potential would be there, either way, making it a lot harder to figure things out.

Right now there's 2 people being considered in the Gate, 3 people being considered in the Wall, 1 person being considered in the Keep (as scum)

If somebody had sacrificed themself:

There would be 3 people being considered in the Gate, 3 people being considered in the Wall, 1 person being considered in the Keep

I think Dunn believes this to be true :3

I think Dunn believes this to be true

+1

Am losing my general frustration at Dunn.

Reading this again, I also think he might believe this to be true as well, regardless of his alignment.

wouldn't him believing this to be true imply that he has to be town here?

[absinthe]

and I mean my opinion of your skill is not going to go down over time unless I've seen you play badly, which I wouldn't really say I have? you were good in Illicit too

pedit: @absinthe

Illicit was not my best game. :/

And there's Tenet.

I'm more interested in why this configuration was the least bad for scum, and what that says about who the scum are.

[absinthe]

Have you said which you want to flip first? Is it the Gate?

Yeah, the gate

I'm not likely to be in a hurry, so.

[Dunnstral]

Have you said which you want to flip first? Is it the Gate?

Yeah, the gate

I'm not likely to be in a hurry, so.

You think the wall is better?

[unwnd]

I'd like some time to think even though I'm probably not the one who has to make any harsh decisions yet

[absinthe]

Have you said which you want to flip first? Is it the Gate?

Yeah, the gate

I'm not likely to be in a hurry, so.

You think the wall is better?

I think it should be Keep-->Gate-->Wall

[Lukewarm]

Dunn can you explain why you went Wall without consulting anyone?

Because you wanted infinity at the wall, and from my point of view there was very likely 1-2 scum between the two of you

So I forced both S_S and Infinity into the keep to see what would happen. The result is that there was already 1 scum in the wall, and likely the last 2 in the keep

So when you locked yourself in, did you already think that I was one of the scum players?

No, I didn't have that level of confidence on unwnd, but I did think there was probably 1 (and only 1) scum between you two. That wasn't guaranteed though, what I was most sure of was that I'd be forcing two scum into the gate.

Why did you think it was better to force 2 scum into the gate instead of the wall?

[Lukewarm]

Spoiler:

Would this game have been harder if scum had scumclaimed and locked themself in the keep day 1, yes or no?

I don't see anyone here who would kamikaze as scum

That includes ana

I would. I would have locked myself into the keep. It's not like I was particularly townread.

That's also not what I asked, I asked if it would be harder, not if scum would actually do it

So what, like a feint? Scumclaim just to prove a point?

...Do you still not understand?

I'm saying that on day 1, mafia would have a greater chance of winning the game if they put someone in the keep.

It 'sacrifices' somebody, but

in reality, that player was lost anyway

, so they're not losing anything. If they don't do that, they'll have to send someone to the keep, and it's very unlikely that the person they send gets picked or even treated as anything other than mafia.

This is what happened here. They let absinthe take the slot, and then infinity got sent over and they confirmed absinthe as to have the least impact because it doesn't matter who of absinthe or infinty was scum if the keep was resolved first by choosing briar or ana, and then that reveals the alignment of infinity and gives an idea on absinthe.

If they had put infinity in during day 1, the day would have probably ended in a 1-1-1 split, or maybe some variation of 2-0-1/0-2-1. The wifom potential would be there, either way, making it a lot harder to figure things out.

Right now there's 2 people being considered in the Gate, 3 people being considered in the Wall, 1 person being considered in the Keep (as scum)

If somebody had sacrificed themself:

There would be 3 people being considered in the Gate, 3 people being considered in the Wall, 1 person being considered in the Keep

I think Dunn believes this to be true :3

I think Dunn believes this to be true

+1

Am losing my general frustration at Dunn.

Reading this again, I also think he might believe this to be true as well, regardless of his alignment.

wouldn't him believing this to be true imply that he has to be town here?

I think that he might have believed locking into the Keep was a net positive for the scum team. But like the entire rest of the possible scum players in the lobby appeared to have disagreed - so he could have been outvoted in the scum chat over how to play the day.

idk man. I'm backing down from a heavy scum lean, to "let me consider the possibility that he is town"

so I am considering

[Dunnstral]

Dunn can you explain why you went Wall without consulting anyone?

Because you wanted infinity at the wall, and from my point of view there was very likely 1-2 scum between the two of you

So I forced both S_S and Infinity into the keep to see what would happen. The result is that there was already 1 scum in the wall, and likely the last 2 in the keep

So when you locked yourself in, did you already think that I was one of the scum players?

No, I didn't have that level of confidence on unwnd, but I did think there was probably 1 (and only 1) scum between you two. That wasn't guaranteed though, what I was most sure of was that I'd be forcing two scum into the gate.

Why did you think it was better to force 2 scum into the gate instead of the wall?

It wasn't about 2 at the gate or 2 at the wall, I saw a lot of people suddenly lock in, my reads aren't 100%, there was a chance in my mind that if I let S_S and Infinity do whatever they wanted, we'd end up in an unfavorable situation. And what S_S wanted was for Infinity to go to the wall.

[Lukewarm]

Why did you think it was better to force 2 scum into the gate instead of the wall?

I promise I am going somewhere with this line of questioning.

[Dunnstral]

Why did you think it was better to force 2 scum into the gate instead of the wall?

I promise I am going somewhere with this line of questioning.

I didn't think that, I wasn't thinking about 2 in the gate or 2 in the wall, I saw a shot at 2 in the gate almost for sure and I took it.

In my mind, it wasn't catboi/s_s/infinity all together because they seemed so casual about where they were going and it would be weird for all the scum to be forced into the same area like that, so I wasn't thinking that. (It wasn't a point against what I did so I didn't think too hard about it)

I thought the keep was likely all town and that there was 1 scum in you/unwnd but my reads aren't 100%, and the opposite could have been true with passive scum trying to get into the wall

I didn't understand why infinity should go to the wall and in my mind that wasn't a good idea.

Thinking back on it, S_S was trying to get Infinity into the wall, which would have forced two scum in the wall, but no matter where infinity went, there would have been two scum somewhere

[Dunnstral]

Catboi/S_S/Infinity had a much higher chance of having 2 scum in it than:

Unwnd/Lukewarm/either S_S or Infinity

[Anastasia]

I think his point is that two scum in the wall is better than two scum in the gate because it gives us an extra IC

[Anastasia]

his suspicion of you comes from you not playing optimally but I'm not sure you can be expected to play optimally.

[absinthe]

I think his point is that two scum in the wall is better than two scum in the gate because it gives us an extra IC

Not following this?

[Dunnstral]

I think his point is that two scum in the wall is better than two scum in the gate because it gives us an extra IC

I was not capable of forcing two scum in the wall

[Anastasia]

the scum are forced to swap you into the 2 scum group.

if the 2 scum are at the wall, then you get swapped into the wall but dont become an IC, they must give us an additional IC at the gate.

if the 2 scum are at the gate, then you get swapped into the gate and become an IC.

[Anastasia]

I think his point is that two scum in the wall is better than two scum in the gate because it gives us an extra IC

I was not capable of forcing two scum in the wall

Well not by yourself you are not.


but by going to the wall, you made sure there was no way for 2 scum to end up at the wall.