Open 812 Guardians of the Fortress - Game Over

[Something_Smart]

Man, imagine how nice it would have been if we'd put Ana/Briar/absinthe at the Wall instead of at the Keep.

[unwnd]

There's no "mechanical agreement"

That's not how I took it

Did you read the rest?

[Anastasia]

Whereas I feel like I've taken a lot of angles and approaches to this game and if there's one thing I'm not good at as scum it's being dynamic... like I changed my tune about what was optimal multiple times, I tried to take into account people's changing reads, we juggled a lot of different mechanical plans, and I also stood my ground really hard against Ana when I could have just like... not said anything and let it drop. If the team really is me/Infinity/unwnd then there's no way that I would expect that arguing back against it as hard as I could would be the right way to make it look like that wasn't the team; and if it isn't that, then why am I drawing attention to myself at all?

uh if you didn't argue against it and I force that team through don't you just lose if that's the team?

like someone has to argue against it no?

[Anastasia]

Man, imagine how nice it would have been if we'd put Ana/Briar/absinthe at the Wall instead of at the Keep.

you mean imagine a world where unwnd didn't lock wall immediately?

[unwnd]

I wrote a giant messy wall in the previous page that I hope doesn't get buried

[Something_Smart]

uh if you didn't argue against it and I force that team through don't you just lose if that's the team

yeah but like you wouldn't be able to "force it through", one of us would always be able to just go somewhere else and ruin it. Plus... if you really did nail the team like that, I think we would probably feel justified in pulling a gambit such as agreeing to do it and hoping that WIFOM's you out of it. That's totally something I would do. And it seems like it probably would have worked!

[Something_Smart]

you mean imagine a world where unwnd didn't lock wall immediately?

I mean yeah, given how people are viewing the Keep I'm not convinced that it would have happened anyway. But yes this is why insta locking is bad.

[Dunnstral]

There's no "mechanical agreement"

That's not how I took it

Did you read the rest?

Yes, I read it, and regardless of how you 'took it' it's been explained to you by luke that he wasn't clearing based off of mechanics

[Dunnstral]

Saying that Luke and I are townreading each other off of mechanics is simply incorrect

[unwnd]

I see well

What about the rest

Unless that's far less favorable to you to discuss lol

[Dunnstral]

I see well

What about the rest

Unless that's far less favorable to you to discuss lol

Fine, let's go over it

[unwnd]

I'm gonna give you time to read it yourself because it took some life force out of me

Lukewarm can do the same

[Dunnstral]

Alright.

I apologize for my agitation in some areas. I'm not going to repeat to you all about that however.

To preface this: this setup to me just creates mechanical strife. It seems like it could potentially be used for gain but at the end of the day each minigame is a XYLO where one of them just happens to have a clear. You can spin the keep as 'oh we just vote for town' but it's a very small difference and doesn't change how someone would behave. This plays in part to what I believe Catboi? said earlier about Infinity and how she's just locked into her choice like a dance game. For clarity, there is extremely little room to think that Ana is scum. I also want to believe that this is town game experience I'll be able to take away from Ydra, despite her changing her mind on me. It's not a matter of how we solve Keep in my mind rather when it comes. Infinity is playing very close to antispew in my mind and only focusing on the necessity of needing to towntell, which is a smart decision. However, I think that behavior is less directed. I don't really feel like Infinity has a set of lines she's being fed from potential mates. I think they're mostly focusing on covering their own ass much like Infinity is.

Not a lot to discuss here

So I'm not going to look at this with associative with mind, rather consider individual play. Scum who are in their minigames in my opinion don't really need to help their partners here. They need to just focus on themselves. This is why what Dunn/Lukewarm were frustrating me, not because what Ana believes. In a XYLO, you believe you're town and you don't want the decision to fall on you, or against you. This is not behavior that is difficult to replicate, and just because you're mechanically locked into a pseudo-XYLO does not

again

change anything.

You're frustrated because we're only looking at the wall?

I don't think that's true, for myself at least

I can't just believe Lukewarm/Dunn must be town for X Y Z mechanical reason, and I'm not letting either of them accept the other as town.

There is no "mechanical reason"

Right now I am leaning that Dunnstral is just playing to Lukewarm's sensibilities. I believe that Dunn will take the mechanical agreement and just run with it.

There is no "mechanical agreement"

I don't like how he's approached me and changed his mind about me even if a lot of people have. I think him especially just dropped the read on me once it was no longer useful. I've seen how Dunn acts towards me and he is never that reluctant to townread me. That was the initial feeling that disturbed me. Regardless, do I think Dunn as scum

planned

what happened and could come in with good intentions about his choice? Not entirely, but I think he's adaptive. I don't understand where Dunn's behavior must be genuine because the choice really wasn't his to make? That's aside the point and talking about that aspect will start a migraine.

OK, so you're talking about Ana saying something along the lines of "he believes what he is saying, and that makes him town".
I came into the day saying that Luke was scum so you going on about how I wouldn't be reluctant to townread you is just wrong, no? Otherwise it's a 3 person group so this is a bad reason anyway.

Moving on, Lukewarm's ideas are there but they're not perfect. They have imperfections very likely found in a newbie. I don't think newbscum trying to get all initiated with mechanical in-and-outs is impossible, but the difference between Lukewarm/Dunn is the approach of things. What's also different is that Lukewarm is coming off a loss is very likely more sensitive to himself. His backing off of Dunn was far more conclusive in that regard because he was the one to initiate at first. I don't have the actual data to back this but I get the feeling in some game where Lukewarm is scum he would be more tucked inward with his thoughts. Much more reliant on his partners to help him out or afraid to give his opinion. Lukewarm's conviction to me wins out compared to Dunn's convenience.

Again, I'm not buying into the angle where Lukewarm is too newby to play as scum

Mechanics are only useful if the benefit turns into some form of a read.

Posts post]1294[/post] and 1300 is an explanation of what Luke was doing, I don't see what you are taking issue with.

Meaning, the person who is either giving or talking about the mechanics becomes readable by the conventions of such. I don't believe that is the case this game because the only useful thing given to us was already decided by scum. That being said, it's great that I really only have to be wrong on one of Catboi/S_S. I think Catboi's thoughts keep unprepared compared to S_S's already decided thoughts. I've struggled to see Point A to Point B with him. I've already talked about why I was leaning on S_S being town but I'm willing to correct that decision here. I think to break this line of thought what frustrates me is. When a lot of people scumread you, then it's hard to figure out how to argue against people. I want Catboi to trust me and I don't know how to entirely do that. S_S/Catboi share one similarity however which doesn't make my answer definitive compared to Dunn/Lukewarm. They know themselves to such a scary degree and both play in such a way that is almost always UTR. Those type of scum don't really buckle easy and will rely on their idiosyncrasies to cover up misplays. The issue of me leaning S_S instead of Catboi here is that I guess I just find Catboi much more approachable despite his apprehension towards me. I'm not sure if I personally offended him for some reason but that one line of him being like 'why should you care what I think' just really stuck out to me. I do care for one and two that emotive trait makes me think his catch-up is not a given choice. That he isn't just

pretending

to catch-up. At the end of the day, all S_S has done is stay true to himself but it hasn't really done favors for him, especially in D2. He's not really one to reach out and I think he's more afraid of errors in that regard. Catboi seems more willing to take chances.

I don't see where Catboi is willing to take chances.

If you want actual mechanics talk, I can once again bring up how me, s_s, and infinity were the last three outside of a location, and that I went to the wall kind of suddenly, which draws attention to myself for no reason if we're all together

[unwnd]

Leave it to you to respond in the most annoying way possible

[unwnd]

Sorry I'll try and think about how I want to respond to you tomorrow

[Infinity 324]

I really wish we didn't have to flip to resolve the keep

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: briar

Fuck it my thoughts are in the thread

[Briar]

VOTE: Briar

Same. I’ve said everything I think I want to. Sorry Ana, I think this helps everyone else to get us out first.

(Impatient town hammer not scum hammer.)

[Infinity 324]

Yay :)

[Briar]

You were scum right?

[Infinity 324]

Lol no

[Briar]

ANA.

[Marashu]

Official Vote Count 2.05

---

Gate

catboi (0):
Something_Smart (0):
absinthe (0):
Not Voting (3): catboi, Something_Smart, absinthe

Wall

unwnd (0):
Lukewarm (0):
Dunnstral (0):
Not Voting (3): unwnd, Lukewarm, Dunnstral

Keep

Briar (2): Infinity 324, Briar

<- HAMMER

Anastasia (0):
Infinity 324(0):
Not Voting (1): Anastasia

Deadline:

(expired on 2021-05-22 23:00:54).

Mod notes:

You may only vote within your location

[Marashu]

Keep

Briar was a

Mafia Goon

.[/center]

---

Infinity 324 and Anastasia were aligned with the

Town.

Town

is in control of 0 locations.

Mafia

is in control of 1 location.

Day 2 continues.[/area]

[Dunnstral]

This likely affects my solve, would all mafia members pick a location early?
Is Luke scum who pretended to want the keep?

Did S_S have ulterior motives for wanting infinity at the wall?

By the way, if Infinity was at the wall you guys would have probably elimmed him