Mini Normal 2209: Musicals II [Endgame]

[Anya]

I don't think policy executions are something that should be considered until the day is ready to end. N_M trolling is exactly what he did in my last game. Over the course of day 1 he eventually contributed enough relevant content to get a read, but I don't expect it to be possible to pressure him into doing so early.

Anya was also in that game so she should know this. Despite that her vote is currently sitting on the player least likely to provide meaningful content in response even though she claimed to want to provoke discussion, which is a major red flag.

votes aren't only useful for reactions from the person being voted they're also useful for reactions from everyone else too onwen

[Anya]

let me be clear: i don't think anyone should claim D1 until absolutely necessary. this site's meta has become infested with pointless early claims and it's terrible

I must have missed it. Why is this being said?

it was a response to boxxy's suggestion that i'm rolefishing

full disclosure the bloodhail unvote was stonedposting, i popped into the thread, panicked, realized my mistake and dipped lol. anya's attempted hammer test here was actually an okay idea, and it's a more adventurous play than what i'd expect of her. that's a good thing.

Why’d you panic?

because i didn't want scum to quicklim town!bloodhail on page 2? if he really was at E-1 that early, wouldn't

you

unvote? we're playing a 9p, which would mean that a town elim followed by a NK would leave us one miselim away from LyLo. being in that situation on D2 with only 2 pages' worth of prior information is a terrible situation for town. keep in mind that i didn't think this through nearly so much at the time, because of my aforementioned inebriation. but i do stand by the unvote in the scenario where bloodhail really was at E-1, because to me, that was the apparent reality of the situation.

Is preemption really scum indicative?

it certainly tends to be, as far as i've seen. what motivation does a town player have to prevent a given player from voicing their opinion/defending themself? the more we force people to defend themselves on their own, the more we can determine their thought process and logic, and attempt to evaluate what perspective it's coming from. preemption opens the door for the person under pressure to simply copy the reasoning of their defender, and takes useful information away from town.

And saying “if you’re town” can be faked by scum.

my argument isn't that "if you're town" is town AI, but that "if we're the same alignment" is scum AI. deliberately vague and cautious phrasing like this does indeed more often come from scum, in my experience.

It would be weird for me to say that in thread if we’re scum partners. Because I know I’m town I don’t have to highlight the fact that I am the way scum do.

so what if it's weird? we don't know your alignment either way, it makes no difference to us. town doesn't think about what's "weird to say", they think about what's true. maybe it would be weird to your scumpartner, but you can save that for the PT. i don't like this defense at all. as scum, your partner's opinion of you and your actions is irrelevant. "if we're the same alignment" feels like you trying to cover all the options and specifically avoid implying your alignment to try and appear town -- if we really were scumpartners, you'd know that, so there would be no reason to phrase the sentence this way. as you said, town isn't concerned with trying to appear town. so why are you?

VOTE: lemons

bloodhail keeps banging on my door to read apple's posts more clearly so i did and i really don't like whatever that is at the end there seems like writing words bc you're trying to hit a word count

[bloodhail]

cdb probably scum too

[T3]

Town: bloodhail, ItalianoVD
Lean town: Anya, UNOwen
Null: N_M, Channel
Lean scum: Lemons
Scum: boxxy

[InsidiousLemons]

bloodhail keeps banging on my door to read apple's posts more clearly so i did and i really don't like whatever that is at the end there seems like writing words bc you're trying to hit a word count

this is just kind of how i post. i tend to ramble and restate points unnecessarily because i'm prone to losing my train of thought, and i would rather over- than under-explain myself. you're attacking my style of writing rather than the content of the post itself.

cdb probably scum too

can you elaborate on this please?

[InsidiousLemons]

unofficial votecount

[0] Not Voting

:

[1] InsidiousLemons

: bloodhail

[3] boxxy

: ItalianoVD, Not_Mafia, T3

[2] ItalianoVD

: InsidiousLemons, ChannelDelibird

[2] Not_Mafia

: boxxy, Anya

[1] Anya

: UNOwen

got impatient and tallied up the votes myself. if i counted right, boxxy is actually at E-2.

@T3 it's good to know where you stand, but some explanation of what you're seeing to generate these reads would be helpful. you mentioned that i feel different to the previous game. how so? what about my play makes you think i'm more likely to be scum? how about boxxy? an explanation of your TRs would also be very appreciated. even 1-2 lines per player, perhaps a post number here and there, would be very enlightening.

[bloodhail]

cdb probably scum too

can you elaborate on this please?

i could troll you and just say "gut"

but in more words feels somewhat underwhelming, seems mostly like he's trying to not ruffle feathers, and 140 feels like he's making a show of being uncertain with how many times he mentions it in the post - like he really wants you to think "ahh gosh guys this is so hard i just don't know"

[boxxy]

do you disregard meta altogether? i'm kind of shocked that you said this so casually, as if it's obvious, considering that doing exactly what you're talking about is a huge part of the game

I see that Anya lynched you as mafia for the win in this game here: viewtopic.php?p=12749033#p12749033

For someone who claims meta is "a huge part of the game," perhaps you should share some meta on how you think Anya's play there compare to here.

I find it a bit suspect that Lemons seems to be defending me when many here consider me pretty scummy (being at E-1 for a bit, and E-2 for a while so far). Could be scum trying to build street cred by trying to friend a town.

[boxxy]

cdb probably scum too

can you elaborate on this please?

i could troll you and just say "gut"

but in more words feels somewhat underwhelming, seems mostly like he's trying to not ruffle feathers, and 140 feels like he's making a show of being uncertain with how many times he mentions it in the post - like he really wants you to think "ahh gosh guys this is so hard i just don't know"

Reading CDB in iso I agree with this. Lots of nervous uncertainty on where to vote, town don't tend to display such nervousness, it feels more "performative" to use the word of this game lol.

Not to mention the majority of the rest of CDB's posts are just defending and justifying his play and then asking other people "what do you think about X"

CDB do you honestly still think Italiano is scum? On what basis?

[bloodhail]

what abt the other ppl defending you

[boxxy]

Is anybody else defending me? That from what I can remember.

For Lemons what I'm seeing is this.

I agreed with Lemons on the "performative" bit about Italiano's "if we're the same alignment" and called out Lemon's post on that as a quality post.

From that point on we hear the following from Lemons

boxxy can be town. i like what's come out of her recently.

Defending my argument for me against bloodhail here

bloodhail: i think you know that 131 is an obvious misrep. posting reads isn't fluff. posting reads without any further justification or pressure

is

fluff, and right now T3 is posting to post. it doesn't feel like he's reading or actively engaging with the game.

and here:

thats how t3 posts its not a scumtell

i'm not disputing that, i'm attacking your misrepresentation of boxxy's argument, and i said as much?

Defending here:

that's E-1 for boxxy. gonna read this page shortly but i really don't like this

And then despite not liking my stance on meta and policy elim compliment my play again here:

140 feels town and makes me feel good about delibird. not sure if i've said so yet but i've been reading him as town

thats how t3 posts its not a scumtell

I said its an example of low effort posts, not explicilty a scumtell, but I'll tell what I'm not going to do:

1. Read a bunch of past games to see if that's actually how someone plays

do you disregard meta altogether? i'm kind of shocked that you said this so casually, as if it's obvious, considering that doing exactly what you're talking about is a huge part of the game

lemons is such obvious scum jesus

Explain why and convince us and then we can lynch scum.

i like this approach rather than the dismissal i so often see of bare reads

also i really don't think 150 was anything other than a reaction test

I would rather make a mistake policy elim now, then be forced to make it where its lynch or lose.

woah yeah okay this sucks and is unexpected

[ItalianoVD]

I find it a bit suspect that Lemons seems to be defending me when many here consider me pretty scummy (being at E-1 for a bit, and E-2 for a while so far). Could be scum trying to build street cred by trying to friend a town.

This is what I was waiting for you to say.

[InsidiousLemons]

For someone who claims meta is "a huge part of the game," perhaps you should share some meta on how you think Anya's play there compare to here.

i don't see a substantial difference in anya's play between last game and this one, but i also don't see much of a difference between her play that game and her town play in previous games. she always follows the same pattern: little gadfly-type observations in flowery and roundabout language, preferring to stick to the sidelines for much of the game. i don't really know how we force her out of this habit. skim her iso in any one of her past few games and you'll see what i'm talking about -- she's a very consistent player from what i can tell. perhaps i overstated myself a little bit -- i don't necessarily think meta is always a huge part of every game, but it certainly can amount to huge revelations, which is why i was surprised at what looked like you discarding meta information categorically.

Defending my argument for me against bloodhail here

bloodhail: i think you know that 131 is an obvious misrep. posting reads isn't fluff. posting reads without any further justification or pressure

is

fluff, and right now T3 is posting to post. it doesn't feel like he's reading or actively engaging with the game.

and here:

thats how t3 posts its not a scumtell

i'm not disputing that, i'm attacking your misrepresentation of boxxy's argument, and i said as much?

i stated in no uncertain terms that i was attacking the misrepresentation, not defending the argument itself. my opinion of your argument is irrelevant -- misrepping is a scum play, and it's worth calling it out. i acknowledge my hypocrisy in not taking my own advice from 66, but it was a pitiful attack to begin with and i hadn't yet engaged with bloodhail in a meaningful way.

Defending here:

that's E-1 for boxxy. gonna read this page shortly but i really don't like this

again, this is not defending. it's me being suspicious of a rather quick wagon running someone up to (what i believed to be) E-1 so early and for seemingly so little reaosn. i don't think this is a controversial thing to call out.

And then despite not liking my stance on meta and policy elim compliment my play again here:

the post you quoted contains one compliment and two criticisms of your play. this is a weak point.

the reason i'm fighting a boxxy lim is because you seem town to me. i haven't heard any substantive argument on why you might be scum and people just seem to be blindly bandwagoning. the only specific reason i've seen so far is from the very beginning of the game, when you called me out for "rolefishing". i was initially fine with a vote on you (79), but you ahd barely posted and after that point, your posts look town-motivated to me. you make attempts to engage with a variety of other players, provide analysis and reasoning, and call out scummy play when you see it. your stance on policy lims is one i don't agree with, but that's not enough for me to ignore everything i like about your play. if anyone has a case on why boxxy is the best option here i am happy to be proven wrong, but as of now, i don't see it.

[InsidiousLemons]

@boxxy re: anya meta since you like specific links

mini normal 2201 and electoral college mafia are town games i would consider to be representative of her play. as i said, her playstyle is very monotone, right down to pulling the fake "this is E-1" trick almost every single game

[ItalianoVD]

Lemons unvote, excuse for unvoting and subsequent fos of bloodhail was "performative" to me. He still has yet to Then his interaction with me was almost flippant or frivolous. I don't believe he actually thinks I'm scum it's just a lot easier to latch onto my words (which isn't a terrible case, but very wrong) than to see my actions and try to figure out the game. He said Anya is my potential partner, which doesn't make much sense since we've sort of buddied each other. I could see Anya!scum being a white knight, but we can't be partners.

If I'm wrong and Lemons is not scum than I think ChannelDelibird is. The easy jump onto my wagon was opportunistic and felt like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Anyway I am willing to vote for Lemons or ChannelDelibird today. I'm willing to wait for Not_Mafia and Anya to post more as the day progresses or on Day 2. I'm gonna leave the rest of reads until later or Day 2.

VOTE: Lemons

[bloodhail]

Is anybody else defending me? That from what I can remember.

ive been saying it repeatedly, anya decided you were town, cdb said he thought you were town tho i guess none of us as vocally

[ItalianoVD]

He still has yet to

Forgive the pronouns, I'll try to do better; and this is meant to say they still have yet to engage with bloodhail in a meaningful way when they initially said they were FOS'ing him.

[InsidiousLemons]

cdb probably scum too

can you elaborate on this please?

i could troll you and just say "gut"

but in more words feels somewhat underwhelming, seems mostly like he's trying to not ruffle feathers, and 140 feels like he's making a show of being uncertain with how many times he mentions it in the post - like he really wants you to think "ahh gosh guys this is so hard i just don't know"

i don't necessarily agree that it feels ingenuine but the reasoning here is sound. cdb has been a light townread of mine thus far, but he's offered very little in the way of content. if he remains relatively inactive and indecisive, my opinion of him will sour.

He said Anya is my potential partner,

show me where i said this

[ItalianoVD]

show me where i said this

My bad, that was boxxy who said that. Well what I said to you is what is meant to be said to boxxy so if you can just disregard it.

[ItalianoVD]

@boxxy:

He said Anya is my potential partner, which doesn't make much sense since we've sort of buddied each other. I could see Anya!scum being a white knight, but we can't be partners.

[boxxy]

@boxxy re: anya meta since you like specific links

mini normal 2201 and electoral college mafia are town games i would consider to be representative of her play. as i said, her playstyle is very monotone, right down to pulling the fake "this is E-1" trick almost every single game

I was more specifically asking you to compare her play from when she beat you as mafia to this game that I linked to.

Is anybody else defending me? That from what I can remember.

ive been saying it repeatedly, anya decided you were town, cdb said he thought you were town tho i guess none of us as vocally

I don't really consider a townread as "defending." It's the active defense of my play that the rest of you think was bad. Only Lemons has done that as far as I remember. And trying to buddy a townie can be a scum play.

[InsidiousLemons]

@Lemons

, what's your read on bloodhail at the moment?

i missed this.

- i don't like his defense of T3's inactivity and lack of explanation for his reads by writing it off as "how T3 posts". it's true that this has been T3's habit, but i don't see town motivation for fighting a call for him to post more substantially
- don't like his advocacy of a n_m policy lim in 154
- 181 is decent but i don't know that i buy that he believes what he's saying in posts like 145. "minimalist posting"? come on

overall it's a scumlean.

-----

i'm looking back on the past few pages and italiano's play has improved from 156 onwards. 189 is not super well reasoned but it has town vibes to me. the cognitive dissonance between saying i'm latching onto his words and then admitting it's not that bad of a case feels like the kind of thing scum would catch and avoid saying. i still am not a fan of how he defended himself against my "if we're the same alignment" push, but i think at this point my vote will do more work trying to force not_mafia back into the thread than it will continuing a stale push on italiano.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

@all: vibe check on bloodhail? he's probably my top pick for an elim today but i want to hear more out of cdb, anya and not_mafia before we make any decisions.

@boxxy: my answer stays the same. she played very similarly in our previous game as in her town ones, and i never suspected her heavily during that game. the fact she's posted so little in this game is also a factor, but even upon rereading our last game, i fail to identify any peculiarities or scumtells. that being said, her play this game in isolation has not been great. she's also leaning scum for me

[InsidiousLemons]

i still don't want a policy lim today but sweet fuck we need to get more than 5 posts out of this man or we are screwed down the line

[UNOwen]

votes aren't only useful for reactions from the person being voted they're also useful for reactions from everyone else too onwen

:/
- Fair counter, what useful reactions did your vote provoke and what did you think of them then?
- Are you an alt?

[UNOwen]

CDB is a solid null read for me. His posts are reasonable but there's been nothing so far that I think he wouldn't be capable of posting as scum.

Not a fan of boxxy's posts this page.