Mini Normal 2209: Musicals II [Endgame]

[InsidiousLemons]

@dannflor can we get a Not_Mafia prod?

i'm a bit miffed about the degree to which we're having to play around N_M's trolling here. i guess i didn't quite realize that having him in the game means minus one player and plus one vote on any and all potential lims

[ItalianoVD]

Okay some very quick thoughts…

Anyway any questions I haven’t answered yet?

You haven't yet explained the boxxy vote.

Oh yeah. It was simply a reaction move. Not for boxxy in particular but for others. I thought and think boxxy was town, but I had question marks about Lemons. Lemons reacted the way town would generally react, but I also thought it was fake and kinda still do.

Also I’ve been reading a few of Anya’s games and she seems to be a little more all over the place when she’s town. This game has been kinda subdued. Like she usually votes for everybody and says a lot of things that seem scummy. Here she seems town. Anyone who has actually played with her notice this as well?

I’ll try to catch up on the last few pages. No promises though.

[T3]

I disagreed with channels anallysis but I didn't think it was particularly scummy.

[bloodhail]

cdb might be okay actually

What made you change your mind?

his posts, right before i said that. they didn't sound scummy.

[bloodhail]

i said T3 plays how he plays and calling reads that are underexplained "fluff" is dumb. if you want more from him, just ask.

you mean like i did in 180, which he has still yet to respond to?

ok

do you think T3 is scummy for not answering you

as scum my nefarious master plan is to...defend him?

i think your primary objective is to discredit boxxy. they're making some solid points and by calling them "flipbait" you're insinuating that their perspective is not to be taken seriously. it also leaves the door open to you deciding later that they actually are scum while still being able to claim impartiality. in the same breath, you're actively working against pressure for T3 to reveal his thought process, which in turn makes him harder to read and diminishes his voice. putting 2 very conceivably town players on mute does not help town. i don't see this as a "nefarious plan", but scum very rarely put in major legwork D1 so the potential that this is what you're doing is enough for a scumlean from me.

discredit boxxy on what, exactly

the two people he's voted are you and not_mafia. why would i be trying to discredit votes in either direction

how is calling someone "flipbait" leaving the door open to deciding he's scum later? i'm unambiguously saying i think he's town who has eccentric opinions that were getting him scumread for not great reasons

how does taking pressure off a player i have a townlean on being unhelpful to town. i am saying scumreads on T3 for having underexplained reads are likely ill-conceived. you are contorting yourself to make this attack

this argument is absolutely terrible. it is trying to turn me defending players from early scumreads on them into me somehow working against them. it's trying to frame "pressure" on players as a net positive even if they are likely town. this is complete nonsense. pressure in the sense they were facing was working toward a potential elimination and i openly disagreed with it. those players are the easist players for scum to push because of their playstyle, and the goal of scum is to get town eliminated

[bloodhail]

i fully admit T3 seemingly not engaging with anything being said is annoying

[bloodhail]

Also I’ve been reading a few of Anya’s games and she seems to be a little more all over the place when she’s town. This game has been kinda subdued. Like she usually votes for everybody and says a lot of things that seem scummy. Here she seems town. Anyone who has actually played with her notice this as well?

i have no completed games with anya but so far her reads have made sense at the moments she has expressed them

possible she isn't bouncing around as much because there are fewer players

[boxxy]

You literally asked for a role claim.

That was a statement. It's standard to force a claim before execution, but it needs to be at E-2 with N_M in game.

-Have you read any other mafia games before joining this one?

Not in depth, but I'm reading a few as we go to try to get a feel for the players here.

-Right but that's my point, didn't you wonder why they are/were voting you? You were worried about Lemons defending you but from your point of view I would imagine the first priority would be the players voting against you.

Spending more time defending yourself than scumhunting is a scumplay.

My first priority is not to make sure people think I'm town, its not to stress about people voting me, its to try to get a read on others, its to scumhunt.

I trust that honest scumhunting will eventually shine though. Scum have to fake it, and fall back on defending their play to generate more content. It's partly why "caught for the wrong reasons" is a scumtell.

-That was poorly worded, it should be the majority of your posts until the Lemons read. I don't understand how this lines up with your next response, "lack of anything else to go on" reads to me as "lack of scumreads/suspicions". Was the Italiano suspicion for reaction?

Wasn't really much to talk about before there. The fastest way to get beyond RVS and get productive is to get content worth talking about. So yeah I talked about play style when it felt like we had 2-3 players who seemed unwilling to provide content. Sue me.

Italiano was legit suspicion, he's still on my minor scumlist, but rather than continue to park a vote there I figured it's more productive to try to generate more content. You're really zeroing in on that "for lack of anything else to go on." That was meant in a general sense, and in the context of the post means "for lack of anything else to go on, play that I consider to benefit scum warrants suspicion and voting."

I dunno your whole argument feels like "you didn't defend yourself strongly." The votes on me didn't warrant defense, there was not any content behind them to discuss IMO.

[boxxy]

wow i fucked the formatting on that one sorry.

Also re: "it's standard to force a claim"

Fair enough, felt a bit rushed to me, but I admit that's probably because I knew I was going to back my vote off if it got close to hammer.

[boxxy]

I disagreed with channels anallysis but I didn't think it was particularly scummy.

Is this an answer to anything or just a general statement?

I would still like to know where you get the "very very very town" read on bloodhail from.

[boxxy]

257 but with the correct formatting:

You literally asked for a role claim.

That was a statement. It's standard to force a claim before execution, but it needs to be at E-2 with N_M in game.

Fair enough, felt a bit rushed to me, but I admit that's probably because I knew I was going to back my vote off if it got close to hammer.

-Have you read any other mafia games before joining this one?

Not in depth, but I'm reading a few as we go to try to get a feel for the players here.

-Right but that's my point, didn't you wonder why they are/were voting you? You were worried about Lemons defending you but from your point of view I would imagine the first priority would be the players voting against you.

Spending more time defending yourself than scumhunting is a scumplay.

My first priority is not to make sure people think I'm town, its not to stress about people voting me, its to try to get a read on others, its to scumhunt.

I trust that honest scumhunting will eventually shine though. Scum have to fake it, and fall back on defending their play to generate more content. It's partly why "caught for the wrong reasons" is a scumtell.

-That was poorly worded, it should be the majority of your posts until the Lemons read. I don't understand how this lines up with your next response, "lack of anything else to go on" reads to me as "lack of scumreads/suspicions". Was the Italiano suspicion for reaction?[.

Wasn't really much to talk about before there. The fastest way to get beyond RVS and get productive is to get content worth talking about. So yeah I talked about play style when it felt like we had 2-3 players who seemed unwilling to provide content. Sue me.

Italiano was legit suspicion, he's still on my minor scumlist, but rather than continue to park a vote there I figured it's more productive to try to generate more content. You're really zeroing in on that "for lack of anything else to go on." That was meant in a general sense, and in the context of the post means "for lack of anything else to go on, play that I consider to benefit scum warrants suspicion and voting."

I dunno your whole argument feels like "you didn't defend yourself strongly." The votes on me didn't warrant defense, there was not any content behind them to discuss IMO.

[bloodhail]

for the record the deadline is in less than 4 days so we should probably be running someone up for a claim

[Anya]

i stand by me peering into lemon's soul and seeing lemon juices that are tainted red

it feels like the lemon's been left outside the fridge and gone off slightly compared to the fresh lemons i'm used to

[T3]

Sorry for grammar mistakes, phone posting and autocorrect sucks.

Edited.

I don't like how after bloodhail justifies T3s posts, T3 comes out saying that bloodhail is "very very very town"

I already had bloodhall as town.

[ItalianoVD]

for the record the deadline is in less than 4 days so we should probably be running someone up for a claim

I’m good where I’m at. Unless cdb gets run up. Also since Not_Mafia is playing the claim should be before the next person puts him at L-1.

[ItalianoVD]

Lemons is at E-1 by my count, which means he's dead once N_M get's online. I recommend unvoting so we can at least get a claim.

This is sketch though, why go fishing for a claim?

This is weird. Why unvote and then call him out for fishing. What was your reason for unvoting if not to get a claim first?

[UNOwen]

@Italiano - I was thinking the same about Anya, but her answers to my questions made sense and I ended up thinking I was in a bit of a tunnel. The play style difference might just be because she was replacing into our previous game, I don't really have a good comparison for early game behavior.

@Lemons - Updated read on boxxy?

[UNOwen]

Wasn't really much to talk about before there. The fastest way to get beyond RVS and get productive is to get content worth talking about. So yeah I talked about play style when it felt like we had 2-3 players who seemed unwilling to provide content. Sue me.

Italiano was legit suspicion, he's still on my minor scumlist, but rather than continue to park a vote there I figured it's more productive to try to generate more content. You're really zeroing in on that "for lack of anything else to go on." That was meant in a general sense, and in the context of the post means "for lack of anything else to go on, play that I consider to benefit scum warrants suspicion and voting."

I dunno your whole argument feels like "you didn't defend yourself strongly." The votes on me didn't warrant defense, there was not any content behind them to discuss IMO.

It's not about defending yourself, it's about your perspective. As in, if you're being voted with no explanation, isn't that worth asking about. You talked about T3, but didn't directly ask him a question until 247 even though he was voting you for in your view not a good reason. Same deal with Italiano, you suspected him but didn't try to get some reasoning out of him. I'll admit I'm assuming how you'd react here but I imagine that if N_M had responded to your pressure with a reads list with no justifications, you would have pushed for more.

[ItalianoVD]

@Italiano - I was thinking the same about Anya, but her answers to my questions made sense and I ended up thinking I was in a bit of a tunnel

I’m actually the opposite. I’m toe reading her and want and need to know if she’s in my blind spot. I guess time will tell.

[ItalianoVD]

*town

[ItalianoVD]

The play style difference might just be because she was replacing into our previous game, I don't really have a good comparison for early game behavior.

These two games in particular…is the reason I’m questioning.
Mini 2199: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86090
Mini 2201: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86195

Notice the very looseness of her votes and posts; almost to scummy levels and that ridiculous tstbs none sense people throw around. I’m just not feeling the same laxity when I read her iso here. I know it’s pretty weak, but it is something that has caught my attention.

[ItalianoVD]

Just compare the two isos in those games to the iso here and tell me I’m tripping.

[ItalianoVD]

And that’s for everybody not just Owen

[Dannflor]

Prodding Not_Mafia

[T3]

From my experience accusations of fishing tend to come from scum. Leaving my vote on boxxxy.