Open 811 - Lovers and Losers (New Game+) [Game Over]

[yessiree]

VC 1.14

With 9 votes, it takes 5 to eliminate

Kerset (3)

- Klick, T-Bone, Bambi Jay

T-Bone (2)

- Bingle, RationalMadman

Vex Vience (1)

- LlamaFluff

Bambi Jay (1)

- Kerset

Bingle (1)

- Vex Vience

Note Voting - Anastasia

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-05-23 22:00:00)

[T-Bone]

New partner in the future I am excited to meet you!

[RationalMadman]

And I am excited to vote you out simce I am quite sure you are scum with Tbone.

[RationalMadman]

With Tbone and Bambi*

[Bambi Jay]

You were wrong atleast the second time, and also probably the first.

[RationalMadman]

Well, you say you're voting Kerset and that if Kerset+Bingle flip Town, you're voting me+Ana. Therefore I can say the exact same to you (that are definitely wrong the second time if it comes and are probably wrong the first).

It's sad that these three posts are the only content for the past real life day or whatever.

[Bingle]

I'm a little bit shocked how hard everyone is leaning into <single game meta reads, tbh. Like, the narrative of RM is locktown because he was aggressive and I was wrong last game and he's aggressive this game is nonsense fmpov, and doesn't sound like town reasoning. At most the conclusion should be "I'm going to have difficulty reading RM" because there is absolutely nothing to compare town RM to to confirm he wouldn't be aggressive as scum. (Hard bet that he would.) The narrative of "Kerset is scum because they're poking people for additional content" is bad when there's a clear town motivation behind that action. VV asserting both that they should be able to read Bambi but can't and that they don't have an issue with that is troubling, to say the least, and Llama poking there is easily the towniest thing in the thread.

TBone ignoring my requests to respond to get him to talk about

And by coincidence from a scum lover PoV focusing on the VTs first is preferable. Your repeated "I only want to look at the VT pool" feels like an attempt to not put yourself in the spot where you need to survive two 1v1s with RM/Ana and then Klick/me, respectively.

Hm. Expand on this for me.

is immensely frustrating to me, because I thought it might have been a town perspective slip and I don't know why town doesn't expand on it if it's something he truly believed, even if he then realized he was ass backwards. At this point, he's had enough time to look at it that I can't even trust the slip if it was one, so I might as well out it for people to talk about and hopefully get some kind of life into this game.

And by coincidence from a scum lover PoV focusing on the VTs first is preferable. Your repeated "I only want to look at the VT pool" feels like an attempt to not put yourself in the spot where you need to survive two 1v1s with RM/Ana and then Klick/me, respectively.

This is actually untrue. From a scum PoV, both pools are equally viable. The 50/50 solve thing actually only applies from the town POV and specifically the town POV where they prioritize their own reads over the reads of the thread. Scum don't care which pool they eliminate in first because they already know that they need to win one of the 2v1s fully and it doesn't matter which, AND that they get the shot at winning both of them, sequentially.

[RationalMadman]

Scum don't care which pool they eliminate in first because they already know that they need to win one of the 2v1s fully and it doesn't matter which, AND that they get the shot at winning both of them, sequentially.

I actually said the opposite to what Tbone said (I saod that Town Lovers should push on Vanillas to avoid misfiring Lovers and being framed) by the way, not the same, though the way it was framed is extremely similar as I was saying the 50% chance to misfire makes it safer to push on Vanillas as Town Lover.

You say Scum don't care which pool becuase both are viable and that this is true because Scum can win either 1v2 but Town perspective is not only the same, they have 2v1 in either pool and under your logic should have even less bias which pool they eliminate in.

In other words, what I am saying here is that there is no right or wrong perspective with regards to where to initiate pressure out of the two trios, regardless of alignment. It coems down to the situation and if any strong read appears.

[RationalMadman]

To misfire and kill 2 voices and votes of Town is actually worse than 66.7% chance to eliminate one Townie, think of the butterfly effect. Only if it's forced hy others or a strong read is had should Town Lovers risk it in the Lover CCs.

[RationalMadman]

I risk because now it's clear nobody is willing to vote off a Vanilla except the one Vanillas I town read (Vec Vience)

[RationalMadman]

Vex*

[T-Bone]

I'm a little bit shocked how hard everyone is leaning into <single game meta reads, tbh. Like, the narrative of RM is locktown because he was aggressive and I was wrong last game and he's aggressive this game is nonsense fmpov, and doesn't sound like town reasoning. At most the conclusion should be "I'm going to have difficulty reading RM" because there is absolutely nothing to compare town RM to to confirm he wouldn't be aggressive as scum. (Hard bet that he would.) The narrative of "Kerset is scum because they're poking people for additional content" is bad when there's a clear town motivation behind that action. VV asserting both that they should be able to read Bambi but can't and that they don't have an issue with that is troubling, to say the least, and Llama poking there is easily the towniest thing in the thread.

TBone ignoring my requests to respond to get him to talk about

And by coincidence from a scum lover PoV focusing on the VTs first is preferable. Your repeated "I only want to look at the VT pool" feels like an attempt to not put yourself in the spot where you need to survive two 1v1s with RM/Ana and then Klick/me, respectively.

Hm. Expand on this for me.

is immensely frustrating to me, because I thought it might have been a town perspective slip and I don't know why town doesn't expand on it if it's something he truly believed, even if he then realized he was ass backwards. At this point, he's had enough time to look at it that I can't even trust the slip if it was one, so I might as well out it for people to talk about and hopefully get some kind of life into this game.

And by coincidence from a scum lover PoV focusing on the VTs first is preferable. Your repeated "I only want to look at the VT pool" feels like an attempt to not put yourself in the spot where you need to survive two 1v1s with RM/Ana and then Klick/me, respectively.

This is actually untrue. From a scum PoV, both pools are equally viable. The 50/50 solve thing actually only applies from the town POV and specifically the town POV where they prioritize their own reads over the reads of the thread. Scum don't care which pool they eliminate in first because they already know that they need to win one of the 2v1s fully and it doesn't matter which, AND that they get the shot at winning both of them, sequentially.

I too, am frustrated by several players. So while I emphasize, it doesn't move me that much.

I explained Kerset. What you see as 'poking people for content' I see as blatantly hiding behind NAI things to pretend to game solve. That's what I see. Your manipulative language is noted, since he's not addressing my concern (and I think you know he can't), you're trying to make everyone else think we are discussing something we're not. We're not discussing 'Kerset poking for content'. We are discussing my observation that he's doing the exact same thing two games in a row. Either have him explain it, or disagree with me, but don't try to manipulate everyone else into thinking we're having a discussion we're not so you can call me scum for not addressing something that I didn't say.

The quote you so lovingly quoted twice was rhetorical by me to point out how flawed the statement I was reacting to when I typed that.

[T-Bone]

Like disagree with me if you want. But stop trying to frame what I'm saying as something else.

If you want to talk about what I said, use what I said. I said Kerset is picking on activity in this game, like he did last game, because he can't sincerely scum hunt. If you want to talk to me about THIS claim, talk to me using my words. Don't say "oh T-Bone is calling Kerset scum for poking people for additional content", because that's not what I'm saying, that's not what I think he's doing and the fact that you keep repeating it is dishonest, and I want everyone to see this.

[T-Bone]

To be clear, I'd understand why you'd approach me in a dishonest way as town given the game state and your current read, but you're doing neither of us a favor in a world where you are the other town pair if that's the case. Even if you think I'm scum atm, have an honest conversation with me anyway as if you thought I might be the other town pair and maybe we can communicate better. I dunno.

[yessiree]

VFP replaces Klick. Welcome!

[yessiree]

VC 1.15

With 9 votes, it takes 5 to eliminate

Kerset (3)

- VFP, T-Bone, Bambi Jay

T-Bone (2)

- Bingle, RationalMadman

Vex Vience (1)

- LlamaFluff

Bambi Jay (1)

- Kerset

Bingle (1)

- Vex Vience

Note Voting - Anastasia

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-05-23 22:00:00)

[LlamaFluff]

@RM/TBone - Can you just make a quick summary on why who you are voting is scum here?

[Bingle]

FWIW I don’t see a difference between “pushing people for activity and pushing people to make content that isn’t semantics. I also think you’re think you’re entirely missing my point either willfully or not.

I also feel like I very clearly have been willing to consider the case where you’re town, considering the 1/3 of that post talking about what I think might be a perspective slip.

I guess the tldr though is this:

You’ve argued that Kerset did this as scum. I’m asking why Kerset wouldn’t do this as town. Given that I know Kerset is town, you aren’t going to convince me, but hearing your reasoning might help me in reading you.

[Bingle]

Scum don't care which pool they eliminate in first because they already know that they need to win one of the 2v1s fully and it doesn't matter which, AND that they get the shot at winning both of them, sequentially.

I actually said the opposite to what Tbone said (I saod that Town Lovers should push on Vanillas to avoid misfiring Lovers and being framed) by the way, not the same, though the way it was framed is extremely similar as I was saying the 50% chance to misfire makes it safer to push on Vanillas as Town Lover.

You say Scum don't care which pool becuase both are viable and that this is true because Scum can win either 1v2 but Town perspective is not only the same, they have 2v1 in either pool and under your logic should have even less bias which pool they eliminate in.

In other words, what I am saying here is that there is no right or wrong perspective with regards to where to initiate pressure out of the two trios, regardless of alignment. It coems down to the situation and if any strong read appears.

NGL, I glossed over the actual content of your theory crafting in the pt. I’m also gonna take you at your word about the theory crafting last game because it’s p much irrelevant atp. We are agreed that the correct play is to elim the scummiest player on D1, regardless of the pool they’re in.

[VFP]

Hello!

[RationalMadman]

@RM/TBone - Can you just make a quick summary on why who you are voting is scum here?

No I can't, I can only make a long one so I will do that.

Tone fluctuation

viewtopic.php?p=12768126&user_select%5B ... #p12768126

Just see some things here, Tbone fluctuates between aggressive and friendly (happy-go-lucky) throughout the entire day phase. It is implying to me an act is happening, all day long.

This leads me to my next red flag

OMG you did this... yeah, I townread you.

From Bambi to Bingle (opposite way around with Bingle) to me, there is something very off with how Tbone is reading players.

He goes from noticing Bambi saying the thing about Klick and Tbone being lovers to never mentioning it again until Bingle brought it up, to hard-defending Bingle calling the thread lovers chat in a mason thread under extreme pressure. Then Tbone says I am potentially faking a read on Bingle since Tbone mentioned being masons before with another player in his first post of the game yet I didn't scumread that.

So if you're scumreading Bingle and townreading me based on that nonsense.... maybe you're giving a fake read, bruh.

In fact, Tbone even says this:

The dishonesty towards Bingle is actively making him look town, and to this point, I thought his pair was the scum pair.

At a certain point though I feel it stops being a communication barrier and starts to feel intentional.

Yet in action he ends up avoiding me and Ana for the remainder of the day phase until voting Kerset, then saying I am slipping and then still remaining focused on the Bingle/Kerset duo as scum with no reason to townread me based on what he says he perceives the game to be.

Now, how about this read and reply to you?

At this point, I'd like Llama and Bambi to join Klick and I on this vote.

@llama

@bambi

obnoxious @ symbol posts to ping you is a go!

Will look into it after work. Is this more of a scumread or a strong townread on RM/Ana?

Scumread. While Ana is pretty okay, RM is not. If it weren't for lovers I'd probably rank scum to town as Kerset>RM>Bingle>

Ana

honestly.

What? How is Ana towniest? If Ana is Towniest, what is it Bingle did in his eyes to earn the scummier position than Ana who has effectively done nothing? Note, Tbone dodges me and even Ana herself asking him why he reads her as Towniest.

Now, I want too observe how Tbone interacts with Kerset prior to voting them.

He goes from this:

T-Bone, is it your meta to talk just about mech staff? No votes, no interrogations.

I can vote for you if that would make you feel better?? I'm not in a rush personally, I'm trying to solve some alignments.

To actually only asking Kerset 2 questions from what I see and then claiming Kerset is dodging them.

In fact the post where he says Kerset was dodging questions was after he voted Kerset.

This does not make sense to me. Kerset didn't really dodge the question, here is the question Tbone says Kerset dodged:

And what should town!tbone think when you, as scum, did something last game, and crucially are doing the same thing again? What should I think from your perspective, knowing these things?

You can OMGUS at me if it makes you feel better but i am glad to finally see you phasing your thoughts.

Why can't you answer any of my questions?

The reply Kerset gave to the questions is actually a fair enough reply. The questions Tbone has asked even me are loaded to the hilt. How is Kerset supposed to reply to those 2 questions? Why would Kerset know the thinking patterns of scum or town Tbone enough to reply? Kerset doesn't claim to be a very 'mind-reading' player at any point in this or the past game. I don't understand this attack.

In fact, this is only what Tbone has done that's scummy, let's now look at why Kerset's pair are townier than Klick and Tbone...

Kerset has been 'pro-content' as Bingle puts it. This is absolutely true, in fact it was Kerset insisting Tbone begin to interrogate and stop being generic that then resulted in Tbone suddenly 'interrogating' Kerset and saying he was sure of Kerset's alignment based only on that.

[RationalMadman]

Furthermore, the reads Tbone has in the vanillas seem fabricated to me. How can Tbone townread Bambi? How can Tbone say Vex is totally different to last game? I never got follow-up on this despite asking him several times.

[VFP]

Are you in one of your tunneling moments, Radiant?

[RationalMadman]

Are you in one of your tunneling moments, Radiant?

I was literally asked by another player to give reasoning behind my vote and my username isn't fucking Radiant.

[VFP]

I didn't read anything you posted this page I just saw a lot of words so assumed you were doing your trick again.
Also that was auto correct.