Mini Normal 2209: Musicals II [Endgame]

[InsidiousLemons]

boxxy's VT claim makes me uneasy but I don't like his case against me and don't feel particularly good about voting anywhere else.

i also never like it when someone says something like this

yeah i don't love this either. Owen, what about boxxy's claim in particular gives you pause? just the fact that he didn't go for a PR claim? pretend boxxy is not an option today, either from lack of momentum or from a sufficiently convincing PR claim on his part. who is your 2nd pick for scum?

[Anya]

why do you say pair

is it bc there's 3 wolves and you want to look like you're oblivious and an innocent carnival goer

you say this as if we didn't establish in literally post #6 that the most likely setup is 2v7. if you disagreed with that conjecture you certainly never said so, and it's true that that is far and away the most common distribution for a 9p. why are you bothering to make this push?

i mixed games up

13 is basically 9 when you really think about it

[Anya]

VOTE: notmafia

yeah whatever we can purge the witch and take the 40% odds i guess

[InsidiousLemons]

dannflor pls

it's been 4 irl days and almost half the game so far since we've had an official vote count

we miss u

[Dannflor]

VC 1.04

Nobody's Side

votes

[0] Not Voting

:

[3] boxxy

:

Not_Mafia, UNOwen, ItalianoVD

[3] Not_Mafia

:

InsidiousLemons, ChannelDelibird, Anya

[1] Insidious Lemons

:

T3

[1] UNOwen

:

boxxy

[1] ChannelDelibird

:

bloodhail

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to eliminate

The Day 1 deadline is in

: (expired on 2021-05-23 16:52:03)

Mod Notes

:

[ItalianoVD]

way to attack the wording instead of the argument. call it what you want -- hesitancy, reluctance. what i'm saying still holds -- you were curiously cautious of a Not_Mafia elim from the very outset, to the point where you were willing to call boxxy a "true mafia" (163) for suggesting that a policy lim might be preferable early rather than in LyLo. to be clear, i was never a fan of that plan either, but your chainsaw is revving a little louder with every defense of not_mafia you make.

Well everyone should come up with something better than “policy lim” or “I don’t like that he trolls” or “ Newsflash, you can’t. Scum don’t mind hiding behind policy limbs if it’s on town. The fact that multiple people are saying it makes me suspicious of those saying it. I don’t know what alignment Not_Mafia is but as town he does give content eventually. My defense is simply to say why kill him prematurely when you more than likely will get more content from him as the game progresses.

if he's scum then that suggests my theory about you two could be worth considering more deeply. i'm not saying we flashtrain you D2, but making one half of a correct solve in this context does give us information.

If Not_Mafia is scum he can literally be anyone’s partner. But what if he’s town? Hmm? Either way you don’t get information because he’s a low content player early on.

[ItalianoVD]

Revealing scum!NM isn’t gonna point anything my way because I’m not saying he’s not scum. I’m saying give him more time to prove it or not.

[bloodhail]

need T3 and boxxy to weigh in

[ItalianoVD]

Well everyone should come up with something better than “policy lim” or “I don’t like that he trolls” or “ Newsflash, you can’t.

This was supposed to say… “policy lim” or “I don’t like that he trolls” or “he quickhammers”.

[T3]

I don't have a read on NM by play but from the voters on the push I think he is town.

[bloodhail]

we only have a day left

[InsidiousLemons]

the fact that n_m is giving us precisely nothing to go off of

is

anti-town play, regardless. it's terrible form to intentionally stay completely contentless D1. compare to his town games -- more often than not he at least posts *something* of value. why is he so reluctant to do so here?

and italiano i do hear what you're saying and whether i believe it comes from a town or scum perspective is kind of irrelevant atp because it doesn't look like you're the lim and at the end of the day you are still a vote. if we aren't going for n_m then who do you advocate for a lim? i know you want boxxy but are you willing to compromise on anyone else? as bloodhail says the clock is ticking

[bloodhail]

Revealing scum!NM isn’t gonna point anything my way because I’m not saying he’s not scum. I’m saying give him more time to prove it or not.

by doing what lmao

[bloodhail]

im not voting a probably town boxxy counterwagon

[boxxy]

Sorry been busy, I have set aside some time tonight to finish rereading and catch up.

[UNOwen]

yeah i don't love this either. Owen, what about boxxy's claim in particular gives you pause? just the fact that he didn't go for a PR claim? pretend boxxy is not an option today, either from lack of momentum or from a sufficiently convincing PR claim on his part. who is your 2nd pick for scum?

Yes, I think more often than not scum claims PR if they're run up on day 1, rather than gambling on WIFOM. My best guess for a team right now is boxxy/CDB, but with CDB the confidence is low enough that I'd prefer executing N_M as the least readable slot and then attempting to solve with more solid information.

[InsidiousLemons]

i don't think a vt claim is a particularly strong indicator of alignment, but maybe that's just your opinion. i see that in one of your recent games, a claimed VT was eliminated and flipped VT, so i think i can believe these are your genuine thoughts.

do you see partner equity between cdb and boxxy, or is cdb just your #2 scumread atm? what about cdb's play raises your confidence in scum!cdb and what aspects lower it?

[ItalianoVD]

if we aren't going for n_m then who do you advocate for a lim? i know you want boxxy but are you willing to compromise on anyone else? as bloodhail says the clock is ticking

It doesn’t matter at this point. Everyone has to be on the same page and everyone is townreading everyone and will only compromise on Not_Mafia.

In any event I could go for CBD or maybe pushing it to the bone Anya. No one wants to vote for you even though I’d still want to vote there as well. I think we should just consolidate on boxxy and any heat that comes will be on me. I won’t push anyone who’s on wagon should he flip town.

[UNOwen]

I find it a bit suspect that Lemons seems to be defending me when many here consider me pretty scummy (being at E-1 for a bit, and E-2 for a while so far). Could be scum trying to build street cred by trying to friend a town.

I also don't like this switch around onto Lemons, because it seems to be conceding that finding you scummy is natural. Do you think you are being suspected for good reasons?

Do you think you are being suspected for good reasons?

I don't. But if more than 2 people are finding me scummy than I must concede that my play appears scummy to someone who is town. Rather than defend myself its more productive to scumhunt.

T3's posts are dismissed even though there is suspicion against boxxy from him. No attempt to engage with either of these players about their votes despite one being a suspect and the other being one of the low content players boxxy has complained about.

Finally, regarding T3. I honestly haven't looked to closely at him. His posts are pretty empty and the majority of the game seems to be okay with that.

Reading page 10, I'm starting to think that Lemons and bloodhail are just two town with very different opinions on playstyle conflicting.

I don't like how after bloodhail justifies T3s posts T3 comes you saying that bloodhail is "very very very town"

That's a pretty strong read for day one page 9, @T3, what makes you so certain?

You talked about T3, but didn't directly ask him a question until 247 even though he was voting you for

in your view not a good reason.

I never claimed that. His vote on me wasn't terrible I'm sure my post looked like LHF to people, votes were on me and I brought up Not_Mafia. Nothing really for me to say about it.

Neutral

T3

Pretty devoid of content. Calling me out for LHF was decent, but then ignoring my question in 247 and basically being unhelpful makes me weary.
.

[UNOwen]

do you see partner equity between cdb and boxxy, or is cdb just your #2 scumread atm? what about cdb's play raises your confidence in scum!cdb and what aspects lower it?

There is partner equity. I've mentioned that boxxy's questioning of CDB earlier seemed pretty aggressive, and considering he's ended up as a town read on boxxy's list I could see that being a case of over-enthusiastic distancing from a new scum player. Him picking up on my questioning but not following it up himself also pinged. Part of the reason I made an explicit push against boxxy was because I was curious to see how CDB would react after he had shown he was following the interaction, and him ignoring it completely in favour of just commenting on a readlist from N_M wasn't a good sign.

Aside from the above association, the primary problem with CDB's play is a lack of proactivity and direction. Perhaps unfairly I tend to expect experienced players to assert themselves on the game more. He's justified it with rustiness, which could be true. His posts aren't overtly dishonest or anything. It kind of leaves him in the same boat as N_M though, just with more content so will presumably be easier to get a handle on with more information.

[InsidiousLemons]

I find it a bit suspect that Lemons seems to be defending me when many here consider me pretty scummy (being at E-1 for a bit, and E-2 for a while so far). Could be scum trying to build street cred by trying to friend a town.

I also don't like this switch around onto Lemons, because it seems to be conceding that finding you scummy is natural. Do you think you are being suspected for good reasons?

Do you think you are being suspected for good reasons?

I don't. But if more than 2 people are finding me scummy than I must concede that my play appears scummy to someone who is town. Rather than defend myself its more productive to scumhunt.

T3's posts are dismissed even though there is suspicion against boxxy from him. No attempt to engage with either of these players about their votes despite one being a suspect and the other being one of the low content players boxxy has complained about.

Finally, regarding T3. I honestly haven't looked to closely at him. His posts are pretty empty and the majority of the game seems to be okay with that.

Reading page 10, I'm starting to think that Lemons and bloodhail are just two town with very different opinions on playstyle conflicting.

I don't like how after bloodhail justifies T3s posts T3 comes you saying that bloodhail is "very very very town"

That's a pretty strong read for day one page 9, @T3, what makes you so certain?

You talked about T3, but didn't directly ask him a question until 247 even though he was voting you for

in your view not a good reason.

I never claimed that. His vote on me wasn't terrible I'm sure my post looked like LHF to people, votes were on me and I brought up Not_Mafia. Nothing really for me to say about it.

Neutral

T3

Pretty devoid of content. Calling me out for LHF was decent, but then ignoring my question in 247 and basically being unhelpful makes me weary.
.

sorry, i'm a bit confused. is this your case on boxxy? i think i can mostly follow your thinking but with nothing between the quotes it's a bit muddied

[InsidiousLemons]

369 makes some solid points. i agree that much of his play can be explained by rustiness, but everything taken together forms a more convincing narrative than the sum of its parts. i think he's a decently high-info-value flip if nothing else. as you say though i think we will gain exponentially more info by waiting. i'm not convinced that the same is true of N_M but i don't believe i've played with him before so maybe i'm just being pessimistic

[UNOwen]

sorry, i'm a bit confused. is this your case on boxxy? i think i can mostly follow your thinking but with nothing between the quotes it's a bit muddied

Commentary is probably required.

I've isolated the T3 comments to try and highlight how boxxy has shifted his position over the course of our discussion. My initial question is whether boxxy thinks it's right that he's been suspected and in response he says no and just talked about the numbers meaning he's appearing scummy to some town. Then when T3 specifically comes up, it's that he hasn't looked at him very closely (and it's worth noting that me talking about T3 seems to be what prompted boxxy to question him in 247). Then in 286 the vote is decent and for emphasis it's repeated in the readlist as though this is what he thought all along. So the question is why didn't he say so when I first asked him? I feel like a natural response to my Q if that was the case would include "T3's vote was reasonable, I can see how he thought my post looked scummy" or something along those lines. And in other posts he's now saying I misrepresented him for taking him at his earlier word.

[boxxy]

Okay I've finished my re-read, all the early plays feel different after getting to know you all a bit more.

UNVOTE: UNOwen His case no longer feels dishonest, just tunneled.

VOTE: CBD

I would support voting CBD or N_M at this point. I don't like how CBD starts the game preparing us all for bad play from him due to being rusty. And his posts overall just feel more like trying to appear as contributing, than actually contributing. I'm happy with N_M due to policy and PoE.

I still unhappy with Italiano unwilling to provide reads at this moment, I could be persuaded to put a vote there but as it stands I'm okay to see what he comes out with day 2, I have some theories.

@UNOwen: I think you're tunneled bro.

Why is shifting positions a scumtell? You definitely prompted me to look at T3 again. I admitted early in our discussion that I had been ignoring him.

Later in our discussion when you insisted I thought his vote was bad, I took an actual look at it and decided that no I didn't think it was bad, I just didn't care.

I've been ignoring T3 because his posts are empty. I don't really know how to engage with or read a player like that. Early in the game when I voted N_M for sleeping, my intention was to push T3 next for coasting as well, but my N_M push got shut down pretty hard by the rest of the game so it didn't seem like pushing T3 for the same reasons would be useful. After that I basically wrote T3 off for the time being and decided to focus on players I could actually get content out of.

So yes your post did in fact prompt me to look at T3, I had been ignoring him since my N_M post fell flat, hoping that I could rely on more experienced town to get a read on someone like that.

When I said "I don't" in 206, you are reading it as if I said "I've analyzed the votes on me and decided that they are for bad reasons." but all I meant was "I haven't paid attention to the votes on me." I felt like I was drawing a lot of scumreads but that Lemons was defending me so I got worried I was being buddied and tried to push lemons.

[Anya]

Revealing scum!NM isn’t gonna point anything my way because I’m not saying he’s not scum. I’m saying give him more time to prove it or not.

don't think he ever will prove it

we might as well throw him to the piranhas now and see what kind of loot box we fish up