Open 811 - Lovers and Losers (New Game+) [Game Over]

[yessiree]

VC 1.31

With 9 votes, it takes 5 to eliminate

Anastasia (3)

- VFP, T-Bone, Bambi Jay

T-Bone (2)

- RationalMadman, Anastasia

Something_Smart (2)

- Bingle, LlamaFluff

Bambi Jay (1)

- Kerset

Bingle (1)

- Something_Smart

Note Voting -

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-05-25 22:00:00)

[Anastasia]

RM can you please stop being baited by T-Bone.

He is trying to make you look bad so he can push us out of the game and claim it's because of your personality after we flip.

Just stop talking to him.

[Bingle]

actually bingle why did you pick SS in particular?

I assumed llama would come with and wanted to see the other pairs reactions. I know you think Bambi is scum, but all I expected to learn going there would be that RM didn’t want to die which is null.

Also, I’ve been pretty meh on the SS slot post rep in. I’ll be around for real sometime before deadline, but I genuinely think this flip does the most for solving the game.

[Bingle]

VC

CV

[LlamaFluff]

Llama backing away from Ana and myself seems like scum scared to be on Town bw after realising third vanilla and other pair aren't joining in.

This makes somewhere between zero and no sense, unless you are saying that as town I would just be death tunneling you? You do realize your slot is all but dead if we do go back to lover pairs right?

What post. I dont see something that is at least as similar as you think.

So why did Tbone voted me in your understanding?

Because you are using arguments regarding activity as a reason to read someone (which is not a tell without lacking a lot of context) that couples with you not expanding much on reads beyond that even when asked. In addition to that you did it last game. Thats the difference. Im getting that he think what you are doing is in of itself a tell, but is compounded by the small sample size of you having done it as scum previously. A meta based supplement instead of a meta based core. A lot of why I am thinking its Ana/RM over your pair is Bingle reads as somewhat town to me.

[RationalMadman]

Vex tried to kill Llama first cuz they couldn't read him as well as me due to us having similar personalities...

Well there seems to be a step missing here. If Vex voted Llama because Vex couldn't read Llama but they can read you, then presumably Vex voted Llama because they can read you and got a townread on you. Or else what you said is a mischaracterization, because even if they had a blatantly scum-motivated reason, they wouldn't have admitted as much in the thread.

Can you point to where Vex explained this?

See this gets to the core point of why I have VV as scum.

They apparently after a game that got called after 48 hours and 12 pages were so scared of me, that they would rather vote me over Bambi. However they state that they think they Bambi is a player that they can read. Then *never* got a read on Bambi, or did anything to make that read on Bambi happen. That was the crux of VV being scum. A cop out of "im afraid of a player" who there was very limited time to ever get a read on, coupled with apparently a confidence to read another player on, which from their standpoint as town would reveal my alignment, and no follow through.

There is a difference between town being lazy and scum trying to stall. I dont doubt that VV actually lost time and needed to be replaced, but how someone says "I cant read X, but can read Y" when Y to them is opposite of X and never makes an attempt to read X is town. Thats why I think Vex was scum. I get trying to form a read of one player off of another. I dont get the feeling that its your only option (especially as again they had about 48 hours of D1 scum me experience) and then never following through on it.

I guess also to an extent there are more than just me scum reading VV on not feeling the same, but I dont trust my meta fully as again very small sample and its hard to compare players when you were playing as scum but now as town as you pay attention to a lot of different things.

@RM what does this do to your “LF unvoted thing?”

I read it before saying what I said. It sounds like justifying a strange angle to justify avoiding a clash which Llama would be scared and unsure about his pair surviving and he, himself, of he's the Goon (as he knows Ana and me flip Town and neither pair of you and Kerset or Tbone and VFP had a sure path to victory after that if Llama was your Goon). S_S refusing to hammer us and you and Kerset both doing so made Llama unsure he could win in the vanillas if his pair lost the showdown next day, realising this Llama comes up with superficial reasoning to vote Vex's replacement instead.

Of course, this all assume Scum-Llama. I am aware he could be Town here but the sudde doubt and off-angle vote (voting Vanillas instead) seems like "damn, the others aren't hammering RM what should I do".

Note that you and Kerset, as scum with Llama, would equally irk Llama (hoping S_S hammerednor you guys could justify it) as if Tbone and VFP were.

However, I still hard-read Tbone and VFP as the scum pair for reasons entirely unrelated to that unvote. The fact that VFP and Tbone box themselves in with Bambi makes me begin to second-guess Bambi as being scum, however I read Vex's slot and previous behaviour and S_S's hesitation to vote us and theory that you and Kerset are playing the middle as a hard Tiwnread on Vex/S_S.

I also render it virtually implausible/impossible that the team is S_S with you two (anti bus theory included from Vex) since in this scenario right now there's no logic in how you're pushing the S_S bandwagon instead of justifying a hammer on me or continuing to push on Tbone.

S_S would equally have probably put more effort into either justifying a hammer on me (from vefore not just in that moment) or bussed Tbone if he was playing hard for the win as scum with Tbone and VFP.

I don't see S_S as scum with either pair. It's not at all likely or viable for me.

[RationalMadman]

This makes somewhere between zero and no sense, unless you are saying that as town I would just be death tunneling you? You do realize your slot is all but dead if we do go back to lover pairs right?

So go back, do it, then vote Tbone and VFP. Then Vote Bambi and then vote yourself. That is what I want to happen. I've made that very clear.

[RationalMadman]

RM can you please stop being baited by T-Bone.

He is trying to make you look bad so he can push us out of the game and claim it's because of your personality after we flip.

Just stop talking to him.

That is good, I want it to be more and more obvious how scummy he is.

[Bingle]

FWIW, Kers, if you tell me you’re super confident somewhere I’ll sheep. I’ve been struggling with reads all game and am more than willing to hand over the reigns.

[Anastasia]

That is good, I want it to be more and more obvious how scummy he is.

He's literally just going to blame your personality for it.

The longer the shit-fight between you and him goes on for, the less likely anyone is going to have the patience to actually read it.

[LlamaFluff]

This makes somewhere between zero and no sense, unless you are saying that as town I would just be death tunneling you? You do realize your slot is all but dead if we do go back to lover pairs right?

So go back, do it, then vote Tbone and VFP. Then Vote Bambi and then vote yourself. That is what I want to happen. I've made that very clear.

Then vote yourself here. Its apparently what you want to happen and you are "very clear" about that.

You are also kind of being an idiot to think that if I was scum and my partners were getting votes I wouldnt bus. Mod still hasnt released topics which im getting increasingly frustrated about, but I explicitly noted to partners last game that if it looked like best way to win the game was a bus, I was going to do so. Either one of them can confirm it publicly. If it was the best way to win, I would take it... and if you are town here your thought is... I dont bus and instead try and make a new wagon that if it doesnt go through *does* probably come back to hurt me? Really? If you are town you have a conclusion you want, and are trying to force anything you can to match it and its blindinly apparent. You are trying to work backwards because you cant actually come to that conclusion connecting the dots forward. But thats why I think you are scum, you dont need to solve because you know the answer.

[Anastasia]

we solve in the VTs then

VOTE: LlamaFluff

Let's see where T-Bone and VFP vote

[RationalMadman]

This makes somewhere between zero and no sense, unless you are saying that as town I would just be death tunneling you? You do realize your slot is all but dead if we do go back to lover pairs right?

So go back, do it, then vote Tbone and VFP. Then Vote Bambi and then vote yourself. That is what I want to happen. I've made that very clear.

Then vote yourself here. Its apparently what you want to happen and you are "very clear" about that.

You are also kind of being an idiot to think that if I was scum and my partners were getting votes I wouldnt bus. Mod still hasnt released topics which im getting increasingly frustrated about, but I explicitly noted to partners last game that if it looked like best way to win the game was a bus, I was going to do so. Either one of them can confirm it publicly. If it was the best way to win, I would take it... and if you are town here your thought is... I dont bus and instead try and make a new wagon that if it doesnt go through *does* probably come back to hurt me? Really? If you are town you have a conclusion you want, and are trying to force anything you can to match it and its blindinly apparent. You are trying to work backwards because you cant actually come to that conclusion connecting the dots forward. But thats why I think you are scum, you dont need to solve because you know the answer.

Voting myself is not playing to win, even though we have miselimination. In no shaoeor form doI want to be voted over Tbone, that is objectively antitown to want as it is indeed possible both that I am incorrect and that Town disagree with me the following day and vote Bingle and Kerset instead.

I am fully accepting of being miseliminated but in no shape or form do I want it. I would expect to be penalised if I self here. I never ever would have selfed in the game before either so don't even try and suggest it. I only ever would self in either an autowin scenario with a CC and free miselim (impossible in this setup) or if I am scum and beli

[RationalMadman]

Or if I am scum and believe I win anyway* I tapped submit too soon was on phone that lagged.

[RationalMadman]

Also, it is very important in this setup to force voters not to be yourself or your lover if you're a pair. Voting patterns will reveal a lot post-flip

[Kerset]

@mod can i let my lover move my vote in case i am unavailable?

[LlamaFluff]

Also, it is very important in this setup to force voters not to be yourself or your lover if you're a pair. Voting patterns will reveal a lot post-flip

Theoretically I 100% disagree with this one. Scum want to be the most town read one in their group. Nothing else matters. If their other half dies first at the expense of them winning the game, its the right move. The only time I think VT-Lover interactions start holding a lot more merit is D1 mishit, then D2 would actually serve purpose.

Also was a little snide... but the "vote yourself" was just a response to you saying that I should vote myself after Bambi (who I think is likely town). Just getting frustrated, will try and tone it down but its not always easy.

@Ana - Can you confirm what I said about bussing last game in scum topic?

[Bambi Jay]

That is good, I want it to be more and more obvious how scummy he is.

He's literally just going to blame your personality for it.

The longer the shit-fight between you and him goes on for, the less likely anyone is going to have the patience to actually read it.

I'm already not reading alot of his stuff.

@Tbone: are ya sure you want us to focus the VTs first? I mean I trust your town but Kerset and Ration obviously don't townread or like me respectively. If we kill Smart and it's actually Llama both the other Lovers probably'll vote me too.

Well maybe I can convince one of Ana or Bingle I'm town but I guess that depends which pair is scum.

I guess it's fair either way because if we're wrong on Ration/Ana it would be reversed with only needing one VT to be wrong instead. So I guess it's always a risk.

VOTE: Smart

[LlamaFluff]

SS (3) - Bingle, LlamaFluff, Bambi Jay
Anastasia (2) - VFP, T-Bone
T-Bone (1) - RationalMadman
Bambi Jay (1) - Kerset
Bingle (1) - Something_Smart
LF (1) - Anastasia

16ish hours to go. As it stands SS is dying here. Just to note im not entirely sure I am going to be on near deadline (about 7-8am my time), if so it might just be minutes before it hits.

[Bambi Jay]

Oh Tbone ain't voting Smart yet? Welp... I can still switch later when I'm not at work if something changes.

[Bingle]

16ish hours to go. As it stands SS is dying here. Just to note im not entirely sure I am going to be on near deadline (about 7-8am my time), if so it might just be minutes before it hits.

I'd prefer to have the decision made by tonight, but I can be available for ~3 hours before deadline if necessary.

[Bingle]

Well maybe I can convince one of Ana or Bingle I'm town but I guess that depends which pair is scum.

Ana voting you goes against her stated position of wanting to BoP Llama, and you know I'm the kind of person to take my time in XLO. What is your read on Llama if you're worried about this?

[T-Bone]

Please stop being dishonest RM, thank you.

Please stop being dishonest Tbone.

Thank you.

I wasn’t aware I was a dishonest RM or TBone, but I’ll try to stop.

I apologize in advance for the dad joke.

You should be sorry!

But I accept your apology.

[T-Bone]

Vote: Something_Smart

Wild that we ended up here, but alright.

[T-Bone]

@Tbone: are ya sure you want us to focus the VTs first? I mean I trust your town but Kerset and Ration obviously don't townread or like me respectively. If we kill Smart and it's actually Llama both the other Lovers probably'll vote me too.

I'm not sure no, considering I wanted the lovers question resolved. As for what we're now doing, I'm about 50-50 sure, just as I was with the lovers.