Micro 1010: Divide and Conquer: Round 2 - Game Over!

[Hopkirk]

scum!vanders' yesterday would essentially have been planning to either a.) bus, or b.) vote me when another town voted me (Bingle/Lukewarm/Dunn/Vanders/X) wagon. there's not really a credible enough push from vanders onto any other slot yesterday (Marci being too TR to push through), and Bingle's only serious push being me. given vanders pushed back on lukewarm when there were 3 votes on me i'm not sure i buy b, and based on meta i'm not sure i buy a.

stuff from other games on bussing
-viewtopic.php?p=12738362#p12738362 (bringing it up as a defence to self/saying does it infrequently)
-viewtopic.php?p=12649297#p12649297 (anti-bussing coming up in scumchat when partner asks how they feel about bussing)

I think I believe the stuff Norwegian is saying about what he would do as scum regarding the hoods

VOTE: not_mafia

I have lukewarm leaning scum and Norwegian leaning town.

early townread on Norway which cuts down on a decent amount of options

I’m extremely bad at reading Dunnstral. If you can explain how he thinks and plays as scum, and why he wouldn’t be bold like that, feel free to enlighten me.

Dunn likes to low effort as both alignments ime. Calling out a partner as sus while voting one of the other people in the pool is something that is going to inevitably look bad and without the context of the last game it isn't a safe assumption we'll solve in the 6p first.

Is Dunn capable of being bold like that? Sure. Would Dunn actually draw late game attention to himself for a throwaway RVS vote? I don't think so, when he very much prefers to take the back seat and passively manipulate the thread.

I don't like or understand this.

Why do you think Dunn is being bold?
Because I don't think a throwaway RVS vote is being bold in any way, and I haven't seen anything from him that contradicts him taking the back seat and passively manipulating.

Additionally, he wasn't directly calling n_m sus, he was just speculating on why he was in the pool. It might have been indirect but even if it was, it's not like a super bold statement to make.

the stuff about dunn here reads as kind of awkward

I think bingle is now more scummy than n_m for the stuff I quoted.
I like a lot what Norwegian is saying.

I also think nor_GL is a scum team that absolutely does not exist because of what nor is saying about GL, I don't think nor would be calling GL confirmed town from what GL said if they were scum together.

initial dislike of Bingle comes before Bingle decides to start taking shots at me. is pushing here relatively early

Bingle can you talk about what I asked you about Dunn?

NM being in the group of 3 is an anomoly. Is it because the deep scum is in the pool of 6 and NM is the other scum, or because they want to miselim NM in the smaller group?

VOTE: Bingle

This has serious reasoning on 1/3 of the small pool and a vote on a different 1/3 of the small pool.

If N_M flips scum, Dunn looks weird for having posted it and there's nothing to gain from having posted it. There's really nothing more that can be elaborated on there. Either you agree with the thought or you don't.

I very much disagree, I'm pretty neutral on the post but I actively dislike your analysis of it.

Dunn is not being bold here or giving serious reasoning, he is giving empty speculation without ever actually coming to a conclusion about it. I think this kind of analysis is super easy for scum to give because it sounds gamesolvey, but it doesn't actually take a stance or anything or advance the game. And the motivation to post it as scum is to sound like you are game solving when you actually aren't.
I don't think it's bold and I don't think it's serious reasoning, and what you said earlier about him calling one person scum in the pool and voting another person from the pool is not correct.

VOTE: bingle

this is already more shade than Vanders threw at Menal in the game with scum!vanders. i like the attack vanders is making i think?

Can everyone in the 6p hood share their read on Marcistar too? Because N_M and Bingle’s reads on her are 50/50 contaminated from my POV.

Outside of what lukewarm said, scummy, I don't like the fact that she is very willing to comment on anything to do with her but basically nothing about anyone else or the rest of the game.

not the most beneficial wagon to push if looking for an alternative to bingle + does follow up on this

Idk, I'm still happy voting bingle for what was a pretty weird analysis of Dunn's post

i think scum!vanders should have gotten something out of me/Bingle? it'd be a good excuse to. scum!vanders at this point would be committed to the bus with the only real alternative being a pivot to me (doesn't really fit with his push on Bingle when Bingleis pushing me). i guess a Dunn wagon would be possible, but vanders never goes for that

Hop, why do you think Marci's town?

follow up

Of the small pool I think Norwegian is towny and bingle and n_m are both scummy.

I strongly dislike bingle saying he's willing to hammer me, last game (where we were both town) he had a strong town read on me, I think GL's reasons on me here are decently worse than the cases made against me last game (with the exception of pooky's) and I don't believe he'd randomly be happy to hammer me here on the assumption that we're somehow going to kill a couple people that there is not a lot of strong consensus towards.

I would kill Dunn pretty happily in the big pool because of the complete lack of content, I read Marci as town from the meta about which pool she would be in despite reading her content as scummy.
I think I like lukewarm now, I'm null on hopkirk and I dislike GL pretty much exclusively because of his reasons for wanting to kill me.

I'll hammer Scamp if he hits E-1 on the premise we turbolim Hop then Norwee after.

Would you agree to a vote on you given the same premise?

Yes.

Okay. Here is what I am thinking. Bingle is (from what I can tell from other games) an extremely good scum hunter. Like multiple people in other games looking at his scum reads like they are gospel. And here, he is either scum, or he is 100% convinced he has found the scum.

I am no longer willing to consider any vote outside of [Norwee, Hopkirk, Bingle], and if we vote Bingle and he is town, then we immediately follow through on his Hopkirk read.

No, because I'm not going to blindly sheep someone's read just because they're a good player.

I don't mind killing hopkirk, especially if bingle flips town, but I think if bingle is town n_m is much more likely to be scum than Norwegian, I'm strongly against sheeping that one just for the sake of it.

not minding killing me here is really bad if he switched. i feel like that

probably

would have gone through but would be really difficult to justify later whereas scum!bingle flips basically clears me. it doesn't feel tactically beneficial to stick to the guns here instead of taking the opportunity when he could have made a momentum swing

[Hopkirk]

^ that was thinking town Vanders btw

rereading all the isos (except Marci and NM) or until it gets too late atm. i haven't actually read up to date but have skimmed some stuff over the last few days while not really feeling like posting because i've been aware i'd need to hard reread to actually solve it

hood
- Marci comes off as townish in the initial interactions with Luke
- GL's opening is arguably lamist but can also be just how he talks
- I wonder where Lukewarm got it being 'beneifical for the more experiened scum to be in the bigger hood'. did this come up directly in your previous game, or is it potentially something scum!bingle said to Luke pregame?
- slight townread on bingle as of May 11th (albeit qualified). didn't Luke have bingle as null in a later readlist?
- GL pushing Bingle as most likely scum in the 3. need to compare this to main thread and follow through (Also May 11th)
- Dunn reminding GL that mafia have daytalk (does town GL forget?)
- Luke wanting to try and reaction test the 3p is slightly town indicative because it doesn't sound good and is a weird thing to propose as scum when they know how pointless it would be
- Marc trying to talk Luke out of a bad tunnel on me that could have led somewhere is a good look
- I don't think i buy Luke's logic that it's 'dangerous' for scum!luka to step in against attacks on Luke/Marci? like it's beyond obvious here that scum!bingle is hard pushing me there, so scum bingle doesn't care about (MArci) being less likely to be pushed d1 because not getting me pushed out is the failure condition of the hard push. stepping in against Luke is either pocketing or partner indicative which i need to review on rereads of Bingle/Luke's isos.
- Luke 'not seeing' who Bingle is partnered with while discounting (Hopkirk/Marci) is weird. why not Dunn/Vanders/GL)- this was on the 15th so i want to compare it to inthread reads at the time. i don't see why Luke wouldn't consider things like Bingle/Dunn, so 'i can't see any possible partners' is an off stance to take
- Luke post bingle flip is acting a lot more like they were willing to vote Bingle than i believe they genuinely were

- has Dunn ever explained how he thought that it was me AND Bingle yesterday? voting me yesterday + thinking it was Bingle as well doesn't make sense unless he's still considering me today? need to check what his read is there. i don't like the response to GL on this because it dodges the question. 'i wanted to vote in the 6p' doesn't explain why he'd vote his (top scumread's) hard push unless he has reasons to think the Bingle push was a bus then
- does anyone think NM ever dies over Norway realistically. i don't

---
Stuff i'm going to be baring in mind when rereading GL because it's stuff Hectic SR him for in open 791 when GL was scum/any meta tells around this are reasonably likely to work
- reads not feeling real
- statements about thinking x without justifying why logically
- overly strong early TR?
- trying to push people for reasons he thinks look good to look townie (early lamist)
- later pushes over mech stuff +/ not feeling in good faith. going for the easy one (scum GL would be going for Luke>Vanders here if this applies probably?)
- sporadic posting. presumably low wim? forces himself to pot in burst. i'll look at this but i think he's been relatively consistent here? is there any rethinking of stuff when he doesn't need to be?

random thought to insert - scum!Luke would presumably like the GL/Vanders 1v1 to continue so pushing Dunn here really makes sense with their current incentives (note - although luke said this before the fight started so nevermind)

[Hopkirk]

Dunnstral
Vanderscamp
GuiltyLion
Hopkirk
Lukewarm
marcistar

I'm leaning town on Hopkirk
I want to lean town on Vanderscamp but I'm not there yet

VOTE: Lukewarm

I reread Vanderscamp, not feeling like voting there

I don't want to vote for Marci or Guiltylion either

So for me it's Luke or hopkirk in the 6

VOTE: Hopkirk

i still need this explained because it's a bad vote

[Hopkirk]

reskimmed norway. their thoughts align with what i'm looking at atm.
prior to rereading (Bingle/GL/Luke) i'm thinking it's between Luke/Dunn.
i'm start with bingle because i'm doing this least involved to most involved

[Hopkirk]

Assuming N_M scum we're left with:

Dunnstral
Hopkirk
marcistar

Vanderscamp's ISO doesn't lend itself well to being allied with N_M imo. Ping me if you disagree.

I don't think Dunn opens the way he did if he's scum with N_M. Too blatant.

the sort on Dunn doesn't really follow through. i can see this as an 'easy TR thrown to a partner then ignoring them' since Bingle doesn't actually reexamine the read later on. when he switches to Norway!scum there isn't an accompanying movement in thoughts on Dunn (there's a 'still TR Dunn' as an afterthought ages later when Bingle has to go through all the players)

I generally feel like "Norway has low WIM as scum" is likely to be something Hopkirk felt is true regardless of his alignment in this game (or nEE's for that matter), like I don't think he's going to just make up a complete lie about another player's scum meta, especially when naming specific players as references.

however I do not see why he deflected a question about it instead of just saying where he might have seen FL comment on it

, so I can sympathize with Bingle's suspicion there. If this is a premeditated push from scum!Bingle I think it would be hard for him to continue pushing it if Hopkirk had brought receipts, but at the same time I could envision scum pouncing on a townie's careless remarks about meta, so I don't know if it's strictly a town-indicative push especially since odds are not in Bingle's favor.

It's not necessarily the belief that Norwee is low WIM as scum, that I find suspicious. It's the arbitrary attempt to add credibility to the claim. TownHopkirk says "Norwee has low WIM as scum" because he thinks that. Scum Hopkirk says {Laundry List of Players} say Norwee has low WIM as scum because he gains from us believing that.

@GL- this was kind of ewwwww. why did you believe the bolded was more likely than purelyjoking!hop? it's adding legitimacy to what Bingle is saying and reads as supportive of him without outright supporting him

I also think it's rather fun that Hopkirk is accusing me of scumreading him as a chainsaw defense of Luke when A) my scumread of him predates his Luke case and B) I specifically said that the push felt like a distraction from my push on him.

remains wrong/bad. clearly not good faith and do need to bear in mind he was hard pushing me when i'd been on Lukewarm all game/had started harder pushing Luke

And like Marcistar said, apparently Bingle thought it was a 50/50% chance either N_M or me could be scum with Hopkirk, his pet scumread. But now he is 100% sure it’s me and Hopkirk to the extent he will quickhammer someone he townreads just to eliminate us? Thst’s some scummy garbage.
VOTE: Bingle

I agree with this

I'd like to hear what bingle thinks is different about me this game vs last game which would justify him being willing to hammer me here.

I’m townreading all of Dunn/Marci/GL/Luke. People are aggressively ignoring how obvscum norwee and hopkirk are.

If I have to lim you to get norwee/hopkirk, so be it.

Bingle not reacting whatsoever to the push from Vanders (this being the only time he responds to vanders, and there being a grand total of 1 mention in the iso of vanders) doesn't really give an impression of them trying to make Vanders look good on a bingle scum!flip. it's immediately noticeable that bingle barely seems aware vanders exists (and i'm going to go check a couple of scumgames to see if this applies negatively elsewhere) outside of one time he says he could be scum with NM & when saying he'd vote vanders

can you outline town!dunn and town!GL?

Literally did the dunn thing in the last two pages.

GL: I buy into the slip logic from Norwee as probably right, thought GL's reaction to being pushed over that felt town, and don't think Norwee tries to instigate that particular fake slip with a buddy the way he did. 163-172 is just super weird in a Norwee/GL scumteam world.

refuses to justify Dunn more than 'he had some unspecified shade from norway so 0% scum together', so this is a pretty blatant dodge of the undeveloped read on Dunn that he's pushing in line with.
the GL read is lazy

[GuiltyLion]

damn I didn't know there was a book out there on scum!GL meta, though I don't think any of it is wrong haha

I think you gave a decent case for town!Vanders, given that I really can't seem to get any traction with either you or Luke on this read makes me think my perspective is probably biased/tunneled from my unique position of knowing my own alignment while being off wagon, suspecting that scum would be more likely bussing than not in this setup especially given how D1 ended with both NM/nEE pushing Bingle. The point about not tactically giving himself outs I think is the best one and definitely something I have been undervaluing. The weakest aspect of my case/read is that it relies a lot on an assumption that Vanders played most of D1 around a plan to bus Bingle, but I still do feel his ISO really doesn't have any notable towniness to me in it and so the case for town is almost solely because he voted Bingle - even Vander has basically said as much. Since you looked at some of his past games, do you share any of my feeling that he comes across more solve-y in his town games?

I also think Dunn just feels like the easy compromise elimination at any point this game, so I'm both not really worried about scum!Dunn winning here and makes me think he's the easiest miselimination for scum today if town.

p-edit: cause I don't like joking without answering and at the time I thought Bingle's questioning towards where the bit about nEE meta came from was fair. You have to remember I didn't know who was scum/town between you, like that was always going to feel immensely more obvious in your shoes, and so I was trying to weigh how things look given a town!Bingle

[Hopkirk]

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=85019 - TRs pinkball early on little, low engagement after an early RVS vote. doesn't speak to Pink unless spoken to first
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=83071&user_select[]=33135- Talks about Titus mechanically and gamestate wise but never directly talks to Titus unless Titus has asked a direct question. CL - bare minimum engagement usually when started by something CL said. has a vote briefly on as a random lurker. doesn't shade partners

doesn't feel like he actively starts engagments with a partners a lot?
i was expecting to be able to easily find more. can anyone see other obvious scumgames from bingle/jingle? i'd assumed they'd played as scum a lot more (recently). i assume there's a secret/open alt or few that i'm not aware of lurking around somewhere

the interaction he has with Lukewarm would be a pretty big outlier from what seems to be the standard and would fit with other slots

[Hopkirk]

damn I didn't know there was a book out there on scum!GL meta, though I don't think any of it is wrong haha

I think you gave a decent case for town!Vanders, given that I really can't seem to get any traction with either you or Luke on this read makes me think my perspective is probably biased/tunneled from my unique position of knowing my own alignment while being off wagon, suspecting that scum would be more likely bussing than not in this setup especially given how D1 ended with both NM/nEE pushing Bingle. The point about not tactically giving himself outs I think is the best one and definitely something I have been undervaluing. The weakest aspect of my case/read is that it relies a lot on an assumption that Vanders played most of D1 around a plan to bus Bingle, but I still do feel his ISO really doesn't have any notable towniness to me in it and so the case for town is almost solely because he voted Bingle - even Vander has basically said as much. Since you looked at some of his past games, do you share any of my feeling that he comes across more solve-y in his town games?

I also think Dunn just feels like the easy compromise elimination at any point this game, so I'm both not really worried about scum!Dunn winning here and makes me think he's the easiest miselimination for scum today if town.

p-edit: cause I don't like joking without answering and at the time I thought Bingle's questioning towards where the bit about nEE meta came from was fair. You have to remember I didn't know who was scum/town between you, like that was always going to feel immensely more obvious in your shoes, and so I was trying to weigh how things look given a town!Bingle

- Hectic is amazing, so when i saw he subbed in and started giving reasons to sus you i'd have to be an idiot not to scour through the thread and gather up meta that's going to be better than anything i'd get on a skim
- i haven't actually read your case on vanders. this is part of why i didn't post yesterday and wanted to wait until i could look a little more in depth at it tbh, i looked and thought 'i'd need to read that all very closely to sort either/both of Vanders/GL from it and i'm not up for that atm'. i should be able to get to it shortly unless i get too tired
- i haven't read the other games in all that much depth. from what i've skimmed/have read i've seen towngames with very high WIM (last iterating of DiC notably) compared to something like this (viewtopic.php?f=83&t=85284&user_select[]=20412) which feels lower WIM. don't think i currently have a good enough picture to conclude for definite on it.
btw on the bussing thing, vanders votes Menal (partner) relatively early on in their scumgame then backs off to a TR which definitely reads as different to the double down here, but also vanders is technically going to be aware of that and it's not as bad statwise as i initially assumed. if we assume one of me/Marci is never getting voted then it's still 40-50% that scum wins after a bus. Just need to survive a vote in a pool of 5 then 4 then 3 (comes out at 40% win and Bingle isn't guaranteed to die from that).

[Hopkirk]

have you ever faked a townslip that you can remember GL?

[GuiltyLion]

I can't remember ever faking a townslip, no. I just read through the occurrences of "townslip" in my post history and didn't find anything in Maf PTs or anything reminding me of past townslips of mine as either alignment. Honestly I'd say I'm generally a bit too proud to try to fake townslips for towncred, I feel more embarrassed about my lack of awareness about the setup more than anything

[Hopkirk]

oh lmao you're right, I read that the setup was Mountainous and assumed that meant no NKs for some reason

fully disregard that point then

i think it's unlikely for scum to fake 2 different scumslips (this and no daytalk). i'd expect scum faking a slip to aim to fake 1 rather than 2 (as it become less believeable/easier to read as fake if it is fake if it's more unlikely to be multiple genuine mistakes) and think i live this

i can see the reasoning behind all the early SR/TRs

Vanderscamp's ISO doesn't lend itself well to being allied with N_M imo. Ping me if you disagree.

I disagree with this, I called out in 160 some weird reasoning he's using to scumread both Lukewarm and N_M, and I suspect it may be that scum!Vanderscamp with scum!N_M trying to paint a false associative between town!Lukewarm and his buddy.

p-edit: @nEE I don't really see why he couldn't post that as scum, even if he knew it was true already. It could be a question to make him look uninformed, and it's also entirely possible N_M didn't mention you at all in pregame scum chat.

seems pretty ok

actually, let me rephrase that, it's unlikely he doesn't mention you at all given that they have to group townies together, but he could easily say "put me with Norwee for the lulz" and not mention your history* at all

i remember having a vague negative thought on this but don't remember what

i don't have a problem with Vanders

Is this a townread on Vanders, or an absence of scumminess?

it's kinda nice knowing you can't be S/S, so either you're town and not seeing the causes for suspicion that I'm seeing (slash maybe have reasons I'm missing to TR him?), or you're scum TRing a townie. either way I'd be interested in whether any of his content looks to you unlikely to come from scum as I really don't see anything that's struck me as especially town

feels a little posturing?

I feel like it's pretty likely that if lukewarm joined this game to encourage Marci to step out of the newbie queue (which I have no reason at all to doubt) then he's probably going to be buddying up with her as any combination of alignments.

Was going to say it didn't feel like a S/S interaction from them before I remembered that isn't possible anyway

.

I'm mulling over this comment on reread... I feel it's less likely town would forget who is in which pool and which interactions can or can't be S/S. I've had my fair share of poorly thought out comments/takes this game, but certainly the entire game I've been

constantly

paying attention to interactions cross-pool and keeping in mind potential scum candidates of each pool. I'm skeptical town!Vanders wouldn't really be aware that Marci/Luke can't be scum together 300+ posts into the game.

VOTE: Vanderscamp

i think scum never forgets this, town could rarely, scum could fake it. feels like awkawardly phrasing something he wants to say but idk the motivation for saying it

I have read up but it is late and I'm tired and I need to sleep on things before really diving back into this game, I'll be around tomorrow

my current laying in bed hot takes:

- Lukewarm posted a great point in our hood about how scum!Bingle would have hard defended both marcistar and Lukewarm slots away from potential elimination today and to what gain? If it's something like a Bingle-Dunn or Bingle-Vanderscamp team, that's playing fairly awkwardly as it's strictly increasing chance of autoloss. I was kinda waiting to see if Lukewarm would raise the same points in the thread, but he hasn't?

- Overall I do find Bingle scummiest in the 3p hood in a vacuum but I'm struggling to see winning partner candidates due to the above ^. This is one of the matters I intend to sleep on. If you're in this game and scumreading Bingle but townreading Lukewarm/marcistar I need help seeing why Bingle is playing the way he's playing - who is his partner and how do they win after we eliminate a town!Hopkirk?

- Vander's reply to me is alright, I guess. I feel a bit more town vibes from him now that he's actually playing, I still disagree with a few of points, should probably cede a few others

- I thiiiiink I agree Bingle/Hopkirk really doesn't feel TvT, eliminating either way there is likely a good call for D1. I do intend to sleep on this and look at all the Bingle/Hopkirk posts in closer detail so no flashwagons tonight plz

the 'lying in bed thinking on the game' is town indicative from the forced WIM as scum meta point
the vanders read doesn't seem like GL is forcing it? not as of this point, haven't read later

vanders scum can make sense assuming they were very much hoping the hop!exile to go through. i still have some doubts based on what vanders was saying about how he would consider a vote on me (while pushing Bingle) because an exile on me would have put scum in a good spot, but it would be hard for vanders to vote on me there

[Hopkirk]

I'm going to finish tomorrow (might stretch to Weds) because i am starting to find myself skipping and skimming stuff

Currently i'm between (Dunn or Vanders) i think?

[Vanderscamp]

I just don't understand why scum!Dunn would be playing so lackadaisically, it's been a long time since I've seen scum!Dunn and I think the past few times I did play with him as scum he was in a hydra, but this is just super lazy play if he is scum here. Do you all think he really just says he's "unsure" about Bingle (in my convo with him in the hood) and nothing more if he's buddies?

I do think in a vacuum, Dunn or Hopkirk would be most likely 6p scum with Bingle 3p scum by pool-spec, and I still think Hopkirk is locktown. But that's about the best point I would have for scum!Dunn, and I'm always gonna be more paranoid about the players that seem like they're explicitly trying to stay alive

Why is he just saying he's unsure on bingle not indicative of them being partners?
I don't understand that read at all.

[Vanderscamp]

Do you think that that example is different somehow, or is this something that has never happened to you?

yah I don't know if I've ever read posts without checking and knowing who has been flipped already, when I'm playing as either alignment. so I guess I just don't empathize with you here

I'm talking about the situations where you do know who died, but as you're reading a post of a dead player you temporarily forget this fact and get a read on what you're looking at because you're thinking more about the content of what you're reading.

[Vanderscamp]

This is by no means a slam-dunk scum tell but I also did notice in his past scumgame, he made a very similar post to one he made in this game:

viewtopic.php?p=12647731#p12647731

I'm not getting anything from the flea/mena discussion

Also of importance is that Mena was his scumbuddy here.

What do we see in this game?

I got nothing at all out of the bingle/hopkirk exchange

have not found a similar post in his town ISOs yet, claiming to receive nothing useful out of other players arguing/discussing, but I haven't done a full deep dive.

I'm absolutely certain I have said this as town on this site.
When you say you haven't done a full deep dive, does that mean you haven't looked at all?

[Vanderscamp]

but this is just super lazy play if he is scum here. Do you all think he really just says he's "unsure" about Bingle (in my convo with him in the hood) and nothing more if he's buddies?

I do think in a vacuum, Dunn or Hopkirk would be most likely 6p scum with Bingle 3p scum by pool-spec, and I still think Hopkirk is locktown. But that's about the best point I would have for scum!Dunn, and I'm always gonna be more paranoid about the players that seem like they're explicitly trying to stay alive

im not really sure if dunnstrals scum but i want him to come carry or else ill keep worrying about him


848 im so confused.. do u think he would do that when hes done it before.. wouldnt that be too obvious?

VOTE: vanderscamp
i think this is the one ill feel bestest about but im not 100% confident sadly

I really do not like your middle line (the one defending me)

[Vanderscamp]

damn I didn't know there was a book out there on scum!GL meta, though I don't think any of it is wrong haha

I think you gave a decent case for town!Vanders, given that I really can't seem to get any traction with either you or Luke on this read makes me think my perspective is probably biased/tunneled from my unique position of knowing my own alignment while being off wagon, suspecting that scum would be more likely bussing than not in this setup especially given how D1 ended with both NM/nEE pushing Bingle. The point about not tactically giving himself outs I think is the best one and definitely something I have been undervaluing. The weakest aspect of my case/read is that it relies a lot on an assumption that Vanders played most of D1 around a plan to bus Bingle, but I still do feel his ISO really doesn't have any notable towniness to me in it and so the case for town is almost solely because he voted Bingle - even Vander has basically said as much. Since you looked at some of his past games, do you share any of my feeling that he comes across more solve-y in his town games?

I also think Dunn just feels like the easy compromise elimination at any point this game, so I'm both not really worried about scum!Dunn winning here and makes me think he's the easiest miselimination for scum today if town.

p-edit: cause I don't like joking without answering and at the time I thought Bingle's questioning towards where the bit about nEE meta came from was fair. You have to remember I didn't know who was scum/town between you, like that was always going to feel immensely more obvious in your shoes, and so I was trying to weigh how things look given a town!Bingle

- Hectic is amazing, so when i saw he subbed in and started giving reasons to sus you i'd have to be an idiot not to scour through the thread and gather up meta that's going to be better than anything i'd get on a skim
- i haven't actually read your case on vanders. this is part of why i didn't post yesterday and wanted to wait until i could look a little more in depth at it tbh, i looked and thought 'i'd need to read that all very closely to sort either/both of Vanders/GL from it and i'm not up for that atm'. i should be able to get to it shortly unless i get too tired
- i haven't read the other games in all that much depth. from what i've skimmed/have read i've seen towngames with very high WIM (last iterating of DiC notably) compared to something like this (viewtopic.php?f=83&t=85284&user_select[]=20412) which feels lower WIM. don't think i currently have a good enough picture to conclude for definite on it.
btw on the bussing thing, vanders votes Menal (partner) relatively early on in their scumgame then backs off to a TR which definitely reads as different to the double down here, but also vanders is technically going to be aware of that and it's not as bad statwise as i initially assumed. if we assume one of me/Marci is never getting voted then it's still 40-50% that scum wins after a bus. Just need to survive a vote in a pool of 5 then 4 then 3 (comes out at 40% win and Bingle isn't guaranteed to die from that).

I think I've only been scum once on this site but consistently on my main other site that I play on I very much don't like bussing and pretty rarely do it.
I know I've talked about it in other games on this site, but I can link you stuff on the other site that will help confirm this.
Not saying it's 100% impossible for me to be with bingle here but if you want to think I'm scum here you need to argue that this would be a big deviation from my typical scum game because it is absolutely not true that this game would be consistent with it.

[Vanderscamp]

I can't remember ever faking a townslip, no. I just read through the occurrences of "townslip" in my post history and didn't find anything in Maf PTs or anything reminding me of past townslips of mine as either alignment. Honestly I'd say I'm generally a bit too proud to try to fake townslips for towncred, I feel more embarrassed about my lack of awareness about the setup more than anything

I do like this, it sounds genuine

[Vanderscamp]

I think I would kill Marci before Luke now btw

I don't get any sense of her putting any effort into analysis

[Vanderscamp]

My kill list is GL/Dunn/Marci

[Vanderscamp]

I think I like VOTE: Dunn

[Dunnstral]

has Dunn ever explained how he thought that it was me AND Bingle yesterday?

yes

[GuiltyLion]

Why is he just saying he's unsure on bingle not indicative of them being partners?
I don't understand that read at all.

I just try to operate from an assumption that scum are going to be playing with intention and trying to win, and so when he just barely gives a comment on his hypothetical buddy when that buddy may be flipped strikes me as fundamentally bad/sub-optimal play, and therefore less likely to be scum

I think it's fair to question that at this point though, I might be making too many assumptions about what scum!Dunn would or wouldn't do. I'm gonna try to find time today to look through a few of his recent past scumgames, cause this is crossing the line into "play so uninspired you can't assume it comes from town either" territory at this point

[Dunnstral]

IMO the wishy-washyness I'm seeing from Marci right now feels like scum

VOTE: marcistar

[marcistar]

IMO the wishy-washyness I'm seeing from Marci right now feels like scum

VOTE: marcistar

am iactually wishy washy-