Open 811 - Lovers and Losers (New Game+) [Game Over]

[Anastasia]

I am literally the only person in this game who thinks you are scum other than the person you are death-dueling and who you are confirmed scum to.

Saying that this path is harder for you to take than eliminating me/RM is laughable.

Why would you not want to keep RM alive when he's hard-deathtunneling the person you need to eliminate?

[yessiree]

VC 2.3

With 8 votes, it takes 5 to eliminate.

LlamaFluff (2)

- Anastasia, Bambi Jay

Bambi Jay (1)

- LlamaFluff

Note voting - T-Bone, Kerset, RationalMadman, Bingle, VFP

Day 2 ends in (expired on 2021-06-02 16:00:00)

[Bingle]

I don't understand something about the situation yesterday, why did Bingle and Kerset both imply the other could hijack their vote if need be (Kerset even asked mod explicitly to allow this) but then vote separate anyway and stay silent for the remainder of the day phase?

I was prepared to get up at 6 AM to be able to be around right at deadline, but saw the hammer at 2 something and decided not to. I did have paranoia about SS flipping town, but I felt like LF has been pretty transparently town all game and was more sure on that than any other option available to me at the time.

I am reading your arguments, Ana, and will do a complete reread of the thread before I actually make a decision, barring Kerset asking me to blindly sheep.

I will say that I'm convinced that LF/Ana aren't S/S here. With the presumption that LF probably doesn't lose this 50/50, Scum Ana probably doesn't put this much effort into a 1v1 with her buddy.

That leaves potential scumteams to look at of Llama/Tbone/VFP, Bambi/TBone/VFP, Bambi/Ana/RM.

[LlamaFluff]

I am literally the only person in this game who thinks you are scum other than the person you are death-dueling and who you are confirmed scum to.

Saying that this path is harder for you to take than eliminating me/RM is laughable.

Why would you not want to keep RM alive when he's hard-deathtunneling the person you need to eliminate?

Because you are doing the same to me? There is also no reason to believe that trying to move the wagon actually works out like it did. I pretty much threw everything into chaos. With the last minute movement attempt I think pretty much anything was on the table to happen outside of maybe Bingle/Kerset, and even that was not 100% impossible to happen.

If you tell me that if I was scum I can get rid of a pair where the endgame turns into two options who are:

1) The pair both VT claims seems to support as scum
2) The pair the dead Lover pair was confident is scum

And all I need to do is make one of them vote wrong? Im taking that option as opposed to the unknown where I need to correctly gage if people who thought Bambi was scum still would after I drag the wagon over to SS and/or not have town who wasnt taking a strong stance see me as scum.

I would rather be able to work on one player, with little to no variance. If I could have been 100% sure what did happen actually did, it might be a different scenario, but I am a very risk adverse player as scum. Any big move with a lot of question marks needs to be out of desperation, thats not this type of game.

[RationalMadman]

I promise to listen to whatever you say.

I will dance for you and sit on your lap and tell you you are the best player to ever play mafia.

please im begging youuuu

now image that they are actually scum and RM asked ana to post all of this for his masterplan of deception

@mod in this and a 'fan fiction' spoilered post Kerset is fabricating quotes. Is there a rule against it or not?

This entire thing is idiotic. Why would I ask Ana to fight? If I was scum with either Llama or Bambi would I not want the bus to happen or opposite to happen as Scum?

Ana believed Llama was scum and outed it when there were four votes on her and we were fully ready to be voted off, I can quote it if you want.

Are you saying you want to vote us off? Why didn't you hammer yesterday? Is it solely us disagreeing on Llama?

Would it be townier if I randomly agreed with her read on Llama?

Don't insinuate things, be direct.

[RationalMadman]

I am literally the only person in this game who thinks you are scum other than the person you are death-dueling and who you are confirmed scum to.

Saying that this path is harder for you to take than eliminating me/RM is laughable.

Why would you not want to keep RM alive when he's hard-deathtunneling the person you need to eliminate?

Work the other way around.

Imagine Llama is Town there and Bambi is Scum, things add up even more so in my opinion.

Why did Bambi scumread you and I in the first place? Bambi didn't justify the vote at all other than finding me annoying to play with. I have never seen a more scummy series of voting patterns and reasons for voting than Bambi had in Day Phase 1.

You're only focusing on Llama, focus on Bambi and then try and read the situation backwards and think which is more probable.

Llama unvoted you and me and led on S_S so hard, why? I don't know the reason if he is Scum except for fear of our flip putting his team and himself in danger.

I want Bambi and Llama to fully justify why they voted us. No quoting themselves, rewriting any and all reasoning in a fresh post.

[LlamaFluff]

I want Bambi and Llama to fully justify why they voted us. No quoting themselves, rewriting any and all reasoning in a fresh post.

Because Ana.

They did nothing the entire game really. The closest they came to actually scumhunting was talking about how that they apparently (note this was after I had been calling VV scum) give me the shot to take out a VT, and if I was wrong I go next. That was really bothering me and still actually does, its the only reason I dont 100% buy your two as the town pair. Also their entire attack on me up until I voted for them seemed to be "they are trying to take control of the game like they did as scum".... when you have no meta on both sides, it starts becoming somewhat flawed without additional context, as in again (which Ana still refuses to confirm) how I said bussing is optimal as scum if you feel it wins the game.

Ana did pretty much nothing until under immense pressure to do something or die. What they did do knowing I am town is really suspect as it starts trying to give them free outs if they are wrong. When you couple that with them just trying to befriend Kerset (which mirrors their near absolute lack of content in scum topic last game), it felt very wrong. So yeah. It was pretty much entirely Ana.

[LlamaFluff]

@mod

- Can you at least release all topics where all parties have given their consent at this point?

[RationalMadman]

I want Bambi and Llama to fully justify why they voted us. No quoting themselves, rewriting any and all reasoning in a fresh post.

Because Ana.

They did nothing the entire game really. The closest they came to actually scumhunting was talking about how that they apparently (note this was after I had been calling VV scum) give me the shot to take out a VT, and if I was wrong I go next. That was really bothering me and still actually does, its the only reason I dont 100% buy your two as the town pair. Also their entire attack on me up until I voted for them seemed to be "they are trying to take control of the game like they did as scum".... when you have no meta on both sides, it starts becoming somewhat flawed without additional context, as in again (which Ana still refuses to confirm) how I said bussing is optimal as scum if you feel it wins the game.

Ana did pretty much nothing until under immense pressure to do something or die. What they did do

knowing I am town is really suspect as it starts trying to give them free outs

if they are wrong. When you couple that with them just trying to befriend Kerset (which mirrors their near absolute lack of content in scum topic last game), it felt very wrong. So yeah. It was pretty much entirely Ana.

This is actually all true except the part I have in bold as that's loaded logic.

It also adds up because Ana only actually outed her full reads and theory while we were on our way to get voted off.

However, I'd like to clarify that this 'only active when under pressure' is not a scumtell. It implies to me that Ana was simply bored with the game and only felt a need to do something when the pressure got intense, I admit I know Ana is Town so I'm biased. Ana's ethos and psyche could be equated to a chronic procrastinator, some people regularly cram things for when the pressure is intense, it's just how they're wired, I reckon Ana is that way and feels this game is more of a chore than fun so approaches it that way. I think she does this ireespectit of alignment so I can't say it's a Towntell but it surely isn't a Scumtell.

If Ana is Scum (from your POV) and only reacts to pressure, why is she still very active and desperate to vote you? What pressure is there if her and I are scum (in this case, from your Town POV we'd now be guaranteed to have Bambi as our partner). Scum pair are more inclined to wait for 3 votes on the real VT and then go for the kill if both are online.

Regardless, I now Townread you enough to place a vote

after Bambi explains why she voted our pair

. I am genuinely sure now. Your thought process as described makes a lot of sense. I just want to see if there is actual logic hidden in Bambi's thought process that I missed. I've reread near the vote and don't understand it.

[RationalMadman]

@Anastasia

What did Llama say about bussing in the PT?

[Anastasia]

he said if the opportunity comes to bus to win we should take it

[Anastasia]

They did nothing the entire game really. The closest they came to actually scumhunting was talking about how that they apparently (note this was after I had been calling VV scum) give me the shot to take out a VT, and if I was wrong I go next. That was really bothering me and still actually does, its the only reason I dont 100% buy your two as the town pair. Also their entire attack on me up until I voted for them seemed to be "they are trying to take control of the game like they did as scum".... when you have no meta on both sides, it starts becoming somewhat flawed without additional context, as in again (which Ana still refuses to confirm) how I said bussing is optimal as scum if you feel it wins the game.

I said it because I wanted to see if you would be willing to take control and to generate a divergent reaction from you.

I didn't even know you wanted to kill VV when I said it to you. The point of BoP shotting someone you think is very good at scum is to make them diverge.

[Anastasia]

For example when I scum-read unwnd in Guardians of the Fortress, I used the same move on him:



To pressure him to give a correct solve for the Gate, essentially telling him to generate a read and then die. Like an after the fact BoP shot.

Of course the town also ignored me there and unwnd managed to win the game as a result.

Using BoP shots to generate effort variance is a very valid way to create definable reads, but since I have no support from anyone in this game it's impossible for me.

You claim I have done no scum hunting, but how am I supposed to scum hunt when noone will listen to me? Not even my own lover partner supports me. How do I generate any kind of readable content from the people I pressure when my pressure is meaningless?

I have no support this game, non whatsoever. It's fine. I'm not going to spend more energy on something where people want to not listen.

[Anastasia]

Because you are doing the same to me? There is also no reason to believe that trying to move the wagon actually works out like it did. I pretty much threw everything into chaos. With the last minute movement attempt I think pretty much anything was on the table to happen outside of maybe Bingle/Kerset, and even that was not 100% impossible to happen.

Are you trying to imply that I have the same level of thread influence as you?

[LlamaFluff]

Because you are doing the same to me? There is also no reason to believe that trying to move the wagon actually works out like it did. I pretty much threw everything into chaos. With the last minute movement attempt I think pretty much anything was on the table to happen outside of maybe Bingle/Kerset, and even that was not 100% impossible to happen.

Are you trying to imply that I have the same level of thread influence as you?

Not what I mean. I mean that if I was scum, I knew I would 100% be getting your vote today after trying to shift the wagon, just as it was likely that RM would still vote Bambi. So arguing that I "lose" a vote on Bambi is countered by that I "gain" a vote on myself if I pushed you two through.

[Anastasia]

How would you know that I would be 100% be voting for you? Why couldn't I be pocketed by your mercy that you granted upon me to let me live? When your stance on me softened from "die scum die" to "might be town here" why wouldn't you expect me to reciprocate in kind?

[T-Bone]

I want to listen to you, Ana.

[yessiree]

@mod

- Can you at least release all topics where all parties have given their consent at this point?

Probably won't release them at this point, not when we are this far into the game already. Also wouldn't be fair to the dead. In exchange I'll just name and shame the people who didn't send me their consent when the game is over.

Note that anyone is still free to paraphrase the content in their respective PTs (without directly quoting or linking).

[Anastasia]

I want to listen to you, Ana.

I feel exhausted inside in every way

[Anastasia]

Maybe I'm just wrong

maybe you're all right and Llama really is town and I'm being an idiot

[Anastasia]

It's not like I can get anyone to vote for him anyway so why does it even matter

[T-Bone]

I mean I'm leaning that way so...I'm listening.

[RationalMadman]

It's not like I can get anyone to vote for him anyway so why does it even matter

If I vote Llama here and he is Town, we lose almost immediately do you understand (scum pair hammers)?

Do you expect the other Town pair to vote Llama and put him E-2?

Nobody should be doing that as Town here.

Why is Bambi Town to you?

[RationalMadman]

I mean I'm leaning that way so...I'm listening.

Why are you listening and not talking? This is dangerous 50% shot that risks losing the game, if you're Town. I say this to all Lovers.

Also why has Bambi gone quiet?

Less talk = higher chance Scum don't release tells. The logic used this day phase will reveal a lot on day three (which we get to if we vote scum here).

[Bambi Jay]

First of all, work and sleep exists. Second... Arguing a lot here beyond the base points isn't my style. I'll let Ana Tbone and VFP ask me any questions they need to settle their worries on me.