Open 811 - Lovers and Losers (New Game+) [Game Over]

[yessiree]

VC 2.17

With 8 votes, it takes 5 to eliminate.

Bambi Jay (3)

- LlamaFluff, RationalMadman, Anastasia

LlamaFluff (2)

- Bambi Jay, T-Bone

Note voting - Kerset, Bingle, VFP

Day 2 ends in (expired on 2021-06-02 16:00:00)

[LlamaFluff]

VC 2.13

With 8 votes, it takes 5 to eliminate.

Bambi Jay (3)

- LlamaFluff, RationalMadman, Bambi Jay

LlamaFluff (1)

- Anastasia

Note voting - T-Bone, Kerset, Bingle, VFP

Day 2 ends in (expired on 2021-06-02 16:00:00)

We could have hammered at this point of time. We cant be scum with llama. Still, it doesn't mean that llama is town.

Yep. As repeatedly stated, especially as the game continues to not have ended, I can *only* be scum with Ana/RM at this point. If I was scum with anyone else Bambi would already be dead and scum would have won. Four possible pairings exist.

[RationalMadman]

@bingle how do we resolve this? Do i make case for llama and you make case for bambi?

No you both vote Bambi, literally. No case needs to be made.

[Bambi Jay]

I still vehemently disagree with that so hopefully they show up in the next like 4 hours before I'm stuck at work.

[Kerset]

@bingle how do we resolve this? Do i make case for llama and you make case for bambi?

No you both vote Bambi, literally. No case needs to be made.

Any askers?

[Bambi Jay]

Oh geez Kerset, why is it that dastardly evil doer Llama instead of the fair murderous maiden Bambietta?

[LlamaFluff]

Information dump... but can anyone poke holes in this list of who are the only scum chances for each pairing:

Bambi
-Me + RM/Ana

Me
-Bambi + RM/Ana
-Bambi + TBone/VFP
-Bambi + Bingle/Kerset

RM/Ana
-Bambi + TBone/VFP
-Bambi + Bingle/Kerset

TBone/VFP
-Me + RM/Ana
-Bambi + RM/Ana
-Bambi + Bingle/Kerset

Bingle/Kerset
-Me + RM/Ana
-Bambi + RM/Ana
-Bambi + VFP/TBone

Which again leads to as much as some people refuse to admit it: Today is targeting Bambi or the Ana/RM pair... right? Want to hear TBone really argue that its better for him to vote me instead of voting a pair that I cant be scum without them first being scum, but also could be scum with Bambi just as easily. That sort of logic is putting the cart before the horse. Or saying that because all squares are rectangles that all rectangles have to be squirrels.

[LlamaFluff]

Really its interesting. Not a single person can logically argue that I am scum without RM/Ana first being proven scum... which I still lean away from being the truth. Yet RM/Ana + Bambi makes sense for everyone but those three players. See this is when I start loving open games, when I can break them and logic the setup into submission. Its like the massclaim strategy for C9++/JK9++ that kneecaps scum chances of trying to get creative, you just have to use everything to your advantage. And now... I can start bending things to prove that worst case, scum logically cant target me... if RM/Ana are town literally ever target me... this is my element.

[Bingle]

@bingle how do we resolve this? Do i make case for llama and you make case for bambi?

I mean... my case for bambi is that I really don't think it's ana/RM.

I'm willing to sheep you if you're that sure though.

[RationalMadman]

Really its interesting. Not a single person can logically argue that I am scum without RM/Ana first being proven scum... which I still lean away from being the truth. Yet RM/Ana + Bambi makes sense for everyone but those three players. See this is when I start loving open games, when I can break them and logic the setup into submission. Its like the massclaim strategy for C9++/JK9++ that kneecaps scum chances of trying to get creative, you just have to use everything to your advantage. And now... I can start bending things to prove that worst case, scum logically cant target me... if RM/Ana are town literally ever target me... this is my element.

I don't think you understand. This situation isn't superior just because you will live. Ana and I are Town, do you actually understand this is just as bad? If me and Ana are voted off we lose.

[RationalMadman]

Ana, when you see this, please post more. This is a very crucial moment. I am explicitly asking you to stop this inactivity playstyle.

[Bingle]

Really its interesting. Not a single person can logically argue that I am scum without RM/Ana first being proven scum... which I still lean away from being the truth. Yet RM/Ana + Bambi makes sense for everyone but those three players. See this is when I start loving open games, when I can break them and logic the setup into submission. Its like the massclaim strategy for C9++/JK9++ that kneecaps scum chances of trying to get creative, you just have to use everything to your advantage. And now... I can start bending things to prove that worst case, scum logically cant target me... if RM/Ana are town literally ever target me... this is my element.

I don't think you understand. This situation isn't superior just because you will live. Ana and I are Town, do you actually understand this is just as bad? If me and Ana are voted off we lose.

The whole point is that from a perspective of everyone who isn't you and Ana, you and Ana not being town is possible.

Like, I personally townread you, but based entirely on mechanics you would not have been able to quick hammer if you were partnered with Llama. You would also not have been able to quick hammer if you were partnered with Bambi.

Llama can literally only be scum if you are also scum, so if anyone is willing to vote llama, they should instead vote you because there are twice as many worlds where you are scum as worlds where llama is scum, and the worlds where llama is scum are all worlds where you are scum.

I literally cannot be scum with Llama at this point, so you can trust that between the two of us at least one of us is telling the truth here.

[LlamaFluff]

Really its interesting. Not a single person can logically argue that I am scum without RM/Ana first being proven scum... which I still lean away from being the truth. Yet RM/Ana + Bambi makes sense for everyone but those three players. See this is when I start loving open games, when I can break them and logic the setup into submission. Its like the massclaim strategy for C9++/JK9++ that kneecaps scum chances of trying to get creative, you just have to use everything to your advantage. And now... I can start bending things to prove that worst case, scum logically cant target me... if RM/Ana are town literally ever target me... this is my element.

I don't think you understand. This situation isn't superior just because you will live. Ana and I are Town, do you actually understand this is just as bad? If me and Ana are voted off we lose.

You arent quite looking at this from my stance... but for you two to die literally every single player apart from the two of you and me need to vote you. I pretty much get to block that wagon and fully intend to do so. Although it *is* from my stance possible for you and Ana to be scum. Like it or not while I am proven town to you, you are not completely proven town to me even if I think its unlikely at this point.

[Bambi Jay]

So your in favor of taking out Ration and Ana Bingle because... Well ignoring from my perspective he's scum telling town what to do, so we can have another week to look over the evidence and having me and Llama arguing nonstop again?

I'm just confirming this is mostly the mindset your doing this with.

[LlamaFluff]

So your in favor of taking out Ration and Ana Bingle because... Well ignoring from my perspective he's scum telling town what to do, so we can have another week to look over the evidence and having me and Llama arguing nonstop again?

I'm just confirming this is mostly the mindset your doing this with.

Nope. I dont want them dead.

From a pure neutral persepctive though, they should die over me. If I am scum, they 100% must be scum. If they are scum, I dont have to be scum. All rectangles are not squirrels.

Please. Present me a scenario where I am scum without those two being confirmed scum.

[Bingle]

I'm just confirming this is mostly the mindset your doing this with.

The mindset is that purely from a numbers place, we win 0% of the games we lose by limming LF if we lim AnaRM. We win a nonzero % of the games we lose by limming AnaRM by limming LF.

It's objectively true that limming RM/Ana is superior from the POV of any town player outside of RM/Ana.

The pushback on that is both bizarre and a waste of time.

[Kerset]

@llama
Unless you start to think further then for one day. *mind blow* Game-wise it doesn't matter, because tomorrow we need to vote the other option anyway. It is still 50/50 between two VT. You can bend logic all you want but in the end, you only delay the inevitable choice.

I know what do you hope for. You are trying to buy some time and hope that after RM/Ana, you will somehow convince *team llama scum* to get bambi. You think that you figured out 200IQ tactic, which wins you the game, because of the VT ruleset. There is no reason for town!llama to fight for this delay, because town!llama shouldn't be sure whenever RM/Ana is the scum team.

There are only 2days left and you are not trying to figure out the scum team at all. Scum!Bambi could be still teamed with everyone, why are you not afraid that i could be scum here? Maybe Tbone is? If you only convince us to vote RM/Ana there should be a major risk for you to lose. You are not afraid at all, because you know that the solve is RM/Ana.

[Bambi Jay]

I ain't going from that perspective bro. An elim on you wins us the game nearly instantly since we'd know your partners so I can sign up for another game in peace. Arguing with it for a week after getting them won't be as fun because you'll get like 100 statements to try and turn them to your side, while I'm gonna basically be going "please believe me" and shit. I know your mostly smarter then me so fighting you in an argument won't help town win if I give you a week.

[Bingle]

All rectangles are not squirrels.

But are all squirrels squares?

[LlamaFluff]

@llama
Unless you start to think further then for one day. *mind blow* Game-wise it doesn't matter, because tomorrow we need to vote the other option anyway. It is still 50/50 between two VT. You can bend logic all you want but in the end, you only delay the inevitable choice.

I know what do you hope for. You are trying to buy some time and hope that after RM/Ana, you will somehow convince *team llama scum* to get bambi. You think that you figured out 200IQ tactic, which wins you the game, because of the VT ruleset. There is no reason for town!llama to fight for this delay, because town!llama shouldn't be sure whenever RM/Ana is the scum team.

There are only 2days left and you are not trying to figure out the scum team at all. Scum!Bambi could be still teamed with everyone, why are you not afraid that i could be scum here? Maybe Tbone is? If you only convince us to vote RM/Ana there should be a major risk for you to lose. You are not afraid at all, because you know that the solve is RM/Ana.

Thats literally what I am saying... I dont know for sure if RM/Ana are scum. I do know that Bambi is scum. And I do have some other reads, but its physically impossible for me to be scum if RM/Ana are town. Are you that afraid of me, that in a scenario where I am scum with RM/Ana that I can talk my way out of it, that you would actually vote me first *knowing* that a confirmed alignment wouldnt change anything? Unless you are actually saying that you are fully willing to risk the entire game on it being me + RM/Ana right here, voting them is wrong. Worst case its worth it to vote them first as unless its me + TBone/VFP we can actually prove that it has to be me + RM/Ana or any other scenario.

I ain't going from that perspective bro. An elim on you wins us the game nearly instantly since we'd know your partners so I can sign up for another game in peace. Arguing with it for a week after getting them won't be as fun because you'll get like 100 statements to try and turn them to your side, while I'm gonna basically be going "please believe me" and shit. I know your mostly smarter then me so fighting you in an argument won't help town win if I give you a week.

Cool... so Bambi has entered the "because I am scared" mode of why to vote me. Pretty sure just creating a me + Ana/RM survivor pool wins this one. Scum is shook... that Bambi move massively backfired.

[T-Bone]

@llama
Unless you start to think further then for one day. *mind blow* Game-wise it doesn't matter, because tomorrow we need to vote the other option anyway. It is still 50/50 between two VT. You can bend logic all you want but in the end, you only delay the inevitable choice.

I know what do you hope for. You are trying to buy some time and hope that after RM/Ana, you will somehow convince *team llama scum* to get bambi. You think that you figured out 200IQ tactic, which wins you the game, because of the VT ruleset. There is no reason for town!llama to fight for this delay, because town!llama shouldn't be sure whenever RM/Ana is the scum team.

There are only 2days left and you are not trying to figure out the scum team at all. Scum!Bambi could be still teamed with everyone, why are you not afraid that i could be scum here? Maybe Tbone is? If you only convince us to vote RM/Ana there should be a major risk for you to lose. You are not afraid at all, because you know that the solve is RM/Ana.

Can you clarify? Are you presenting RM/Ana as town in this scenario? Only because a town flip anywhere immediately loses us the game, so there is no tomorrow were we to ignore the VTs and flip a lovers pair. I just want to be able to follow your thought process here.

[LlamaFluff]

@llama
Unless you start to think further then for one day. *mind blow* Game-wise it doesn't matter, because tomorrow we need to vote the other option anyway. It is still 50/50 between two VT. You can bend logic all you want but in the end, you only delay the inevitable choice.

I know what do you hope for. You are trying to buy some time and hope that after RM/Ana, you will somehow convince *team llama scum* to get bambi. You think that you figured out 200IQ tactic, which wins you the game, because of the VT ruleset. There is no reason for town!llama to fight for this delay, because town!llama shouldn't be sure whenever RM/Ana is the scum team.

There are only 2days left and you are not trying to figure out the scum team at all. Scum!Bambi could be still teamed with everyone, why are you not afraid that i could be scum here? Maybe Tbone is? If you only convince us to vote RM/Ana there should be a major risk for you to lose. You are not afraid at all, because you know that the solve is RM/Ana.

Can you clarify? Are you presenting RM/Ana as town in this scenario? Only because a town flip anywhere immediately loses us the game, so there is no tomorrow were we to ignore the VTs and flip a lovers pair. I just want to be able to follow your thought process here.

Can you present the scenario where I am scum but RM/Ana are town?

[Bambi Jay]

I can't believe me and Kerset are thinking alike when I thought they would've been one of the first to disagree with me. Life works in mysterious ways.

[RationalMadman]

I'm just confirming this is mostly the mindset your doing this with.

The mindset is that purely from a numbers place, we win 0% of the games we lose by limming LF if we lim AnaRM. We win a nonzero % of the games we lose by limming AnaRM by limming LF.

It's objectively true that limming RM/Ana is superior from the POV of any town player outside of RM/Ana.

The pushback on that is both bizarre and a waste of time.

I didn't pushback on it, I pushback on Llama being happy about it.

[RationalMadman]

VC 2.13

With 8 votes, it takes 5 to eliminate.

Bambi Jay (3)

- LlamaFluff, RationalMadman, Bambi Jay

LlamaFluff (1)

- Anastasia

Note voting - T-Bone, Kerset, Bingle, VFP

Day 2 ends in (expired on 2021-06-02 16:00:00)

We could have hammered at this point of time. We cant be scum with llama. Still, it doesn't mean that llama is town.

Yep. As repeatedly stated, especially as the game continues to not have ended, I can *only* be scum with Ana/RM at this point. If I was scum with anyone else Bambi would already be dead and scum would have won. Four possible pairings exist.

The biggest point that makes it blatant that Bambi is scum is that her reasoning for taking the huge risk was to prove that me and Ana were scum correct? So why is she voting you instead of me or Ana now? Why is she trying to paint you as Scum for advocating for that? Bambi's logic doesn't follow at all. It is very blatant which vanilla is fake even if you aren't me and Ana (or yourself, Llama) because her reasoning doesn't match her actions. The risk of hers was so huge for so little gain as a Vanilla since if she was correct, she'd then be just as back-against-the-wall to win the vote-off. Why would she risk that hard? It was so sudden and out of nowhere, it has only one benefit that I can perceive; rushing the day's chat to become chaotic and less about teams-if-Bambi-scum and much more about you and RM+Ana pair vs Bambi alone. This has only one benefit if we were onto something about her before, I am still trying to spot precisely what though. Which pair would suggest it for that purpose? We, or at least both me and Bingle, suspected Tbone and VFP as the partners of Bambi, so by default they are more suspicious. It's also true that at the end of D1 VFP suddenly began to push hard on my pair out of nowhere so the pace and target of this gambit matches that Day Phase 1 thing but I firstly think this play was largely Bambi's own idea, the reason is that both pairs reacted to her play in a way that implies there was no intended way for it to 'play out', in fact both pairs had one member of the pair not as keen to vote Ana and myself (T-bone and Kerset) with VFP at first not realising it either, so this implies to me that unless Bingle planned it out with Bambi without addressing Kerset much in their scum chat, it appears Bambi largely invented this on her own and the pair just has gone along with it.

I also believe that based on reactions, only Bingle's pair properly gained from this new dynamic seems to be pitting Tbone's pair against ours yet again indirectly. After all, this play matches the idea of bussing between Bambi and myself perfectly while also making Tbone and VFP seem guilty for it. Therefore, I am becoming extremely suspicious of Kerset and Bingle with this, more than ever before in the entire game. This play right here only makes proper sense from them if I am reading things correctly in the reactions to Bambi's actions.