Micro 1010: Divide and Conquer: Round 2 - Game Over!

[Hopkirk]

i don't like it when the game is too easy, so here's a few random guides i found (but didn't read since i'm not scum LMAO) about how to play well as scum. if the scum brush up on this tactical stuff then hopefully things will be a bit more interesting:

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... daDelta%29
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... Scum_Games
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=74990

[Hopkirk]

i heard norway melts like a chocolate santa in a tanning bed when he's scum so it's probably an easy solve like Bingle and Lukewarm. now that we've got that out of the way, anyone seen any good shows recently (tv, underground-broadway, magic, etc)

[Hopkirk]

Kanna, Flavor Leaf, A50, Flopz, and Isis have all brought it up at different points actually. it might be some kind of sitewide meme i guess?

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Lukewarm

[Hopkirk]

three or four things from Norway feel much more likely to come from town but who cares about sorting the small hood

I'm not taking your jokes as 100% serious, but I do believe scum tend to use jokes in an attempt to be charismatic or to deflect scrutiny of their votes or scumreads. If you're town you'll be better served by not fixating on an early scumread on you and instead continuing to hunt the real mafias.

It's also odd to say I was "upset" with your RVS vote

and yet you haven't said hello to me?
can you remind me of your playstyle? I remember you being fun to play with but don't think we've played in a whiiiiile now (i have used your name in place of the word guilty in that time though, so thanks for that). some of your stuff so far feels kind of surgical?

[Hopkirk]

I would not want that as scum. I rarely even put in effort as scum.

can you not admit to meta i'm using to partially inform a read on you

[Hopkirk]

What other substance am I supposed to have already put into the thread?

Imo, the first order of business was figuring out which neighborhood we are going to be voting in today, so that is the conversation I have been engaging with the most so far. At this point, I think I am pretty settled on saying that we should vote from the 6p neighborhood.


At this point, I am really waiting for more content from Dunnstral, Vanderscamp, Hopkirk, and marcistar before I can really get started with my new goal of figuring out who we should vote for today.

The only read I actually have so far is a town read on Marci, because I think scum!marci would have played into my banter to attempt to pocket me, but no pocket attempt was made.

Marci is literally successfully pocketing you...

I think that the mafia put Norwee+N_M in the 3 person group because they knew it would lead to conflict, and put a lot of noise in the thread. And that strategy appears to be paying off, because they are doing exactly that. But that still leaves the question of whether you did it, and the 2 town players are falling for it, or if one of them did it as scum, and is egging on the other.

I am a little surprised at the amount of posts coming form Not_Mafia, in my expereince with him he has been a lot more sparse. In our last game he made 63 posts spread out over 30 days, and then in this game he is at 29 posts in like 6 hours, and that was also a game that had both Norwee and Not_Mafia in it...

So I am a bit suspicious that this is that "one of them did it as scum, and is egging on the other"

So of the three of you, I think it might actually be Not_Mafia... but he is such a hard person to read, by design, and it seems like his reputation has resulted in him almost having a site wide immunity from Day 1 eliminations.

So I am kind of glad we are not voting in the 3 player neighborhood today.

is this good posting or fake content posting. someone sort it for me

[Hopkirk]

let's get to the bottom of which one of GL/Lukewarm is locktown and which one is super sus by the time i wake up tomorrow. good luck people

[Hopkirk]

nice, GL is the obvtown between GL/Lukewarm

three or four things from Norway feel much more likely to come from town but who cares about sorting the small hood

- first post about 'fuck being in the 3p hood'
- being toxic to NM after reading his comments complaining about scum being toxic being personally upsetting to him like a week ago. either lacks self awareness and is doing it as scum to be unpleasant, memeing, theater, or town. vibes most as town there
- amount of posts
other stuff but those are three of them so it fills the 3-4 i mentioned to t h e letter

Elaborate, please.

Hoppy, when did you talk to FL about norwee?

Me and hectic got lost backpacking and ended up in Norway one time and we saw this film set and Hectic was all like 'hey hop, isn't that flavour leaf working on the lighting tech'. i thought he was joking but it turned out that it actually was FL, then when we went over to say hi we all started joking about how it's weird that it wasn't Norway we met since we were in Norway at the time and FL started going on this long rant about how Norway has low WIM as scum or something...

[Hopkirk]

Actually is Hopkirk really subdued this game for some reason?

I was avoiding bringing it up to see how he reacted to mild questioning, but yeah.

have we ever played together Bingle?
have you read much of my stuff recently Norway & subdued as in not memeing enough or not solving enough?

Assuming N_M scum we're left with:

Dunnstral
Hopkirk
marcistar

Vanderscamp's ISO doesn't lend itself well to being allied with N_M imo. Ping me if you disagree.

string of posts including/around this feels genuine because it's too fast

[Hopkirk]

Disagree. We've talked about Dunn, I'm waiting for a response from Hopkirk, and I agree with your logic on GL given his response. Luke and Scamp both strike me as the kind where their alignment will be more obvious if I let them do their thing and I can afford to be a passive observer on marci at the moment.

Sometimes, it's better to know how to let the thread breathe to get reads.

what were you waiting on a response from me on?

[Hopkirk]

i don't have a problem with Vanders

[Hopkirk]

nice, GL is the obvtown between GL/Lukewarm

three or four things from Norway feel much more likely to come from town but who cares about sorting the small hood

Elaborate, please.

Hoppy, when did you talk to FL about norwee?

Me and hectic got lost backpacking and ended up in Norway one time and we saw this film set and Hectic was all like 'hey hop, isn't that flavour leaf working on the lighting tech'. i thought he was joking but it turned out that it actually was FL, then when we went over to say hi we all started joking about how it's weird that it wasn't Norway we met since we were in Norway at the time and FL started going on this long rant about how Norway has low WIM as scum or something...

just reposting this with my response not within quotes because messed up

- first post about 'fuck being in the 3p hood'
- being toxic to NM after reading his comments complaining about scum being toxic being personally upsetting to him like a week ago. either lacks self awareness and is doing it as scum to be unpleasant, memeing, theater, or town. vibes most as town there
- amount of posts
other stuff but those are three of them so it fills the 3-4 i mentioned to t h e letter

[Hopkirk]

are you still ignoring my existence?

[Hopkirk]

that's pretty messed up. like what are you, my friends, family, crush, and parents?

[Hopkirk]

*Chuckles*, I'm pretty active when me and hectic aren't I'm a hydra and competing over who can prod dodge the most and playing prod chicken without getting yelled at (like in that other game we played)

[Hopkirk]

i don't have a problem with Vanders

Is this a townread on Vanders, or an absence of scumminess?

it's kinda nice knowing you can't be S/S, so either you're town and not seeing the causes for suspicion that I'm seeing (slash maybe have reasons I'm missing to TR him?), or you're scum TRing a townie. either way I'd be interested in whether any of his content looks to you unlikely to come from scum as I really don't see anything that's struck me as especially town

have we ever played together Bingle?

I read TM fully and am fairly certain we have experience beyond that even if I don’t recall any specific games off the top of my head.

unless you're talking about alts/hydras i don't remember you. so what do you think?

i noticed your vote is in a dumb place. i don't think anyone else saw it yet though so feel free to fix that and we can pretend it didn't happen

[Hopkirk]

for the GL quote- it means Vanders as nullish town

[Hopkirk]

Does jingle = bingle?

[Hopkirk]

I wouldn't count WSB as I game I played so much as a game where about 5 things happened that made me not want to play followed by me just not playing

So I'm assuming there's not a reason for the vote?

[Hopkirk]

strongest TR

[Hopkirk]

strongest TR

why? (:

nice, GL is the obvtown between GL/Lukewarm

three or four things from Norway feel much more likely to come from town but who cares about sorting the small hood

Elaborate, please.

Hoppy, when did you talk to FL about norwee?

Me and hectic got lost backpacking and ended up in Norway one time and we saw this film set and Hectic was all like 'hey hop, isn't that flavour leaf working on the lighting tech'. i thought he was joking but it turned out that it actually was FL, then when we went over to say hi we all started joking about how it's weird that it wasn't Norway we met since we were in Norway at the time and FL started going on this long rant about how Norway has low WIM as scum or something...

just reposting this with my response not within quotes because messed up

- first post about 'fuck being in the 3p hood'
- being toxic to NM after reading his comments complaining about scum being toxic being personally upsetting to him like a week ago. either lacks self awareness and is doing it as scum to be unpleasant, memeing, theater, or town. vibes most as town there
- amount of posts
other stuff but those are three of them so it fills the 3-4 i mentioned to t h e letter

here's a decent chunk of where it started

i'm not sure on Marci yet. i might try and make time to read the meta that's being pointed out as really good at some point

[Hopkirk]

i remember seeing you quite a lot then. i assumed you were someone else

[Hopkirk]

Elaborating, poorly, on why you're town and then explicitly dodging a response to the thing I'd brought up in the neighborhood.

What did i dodge?

Also, other things he doesn't want to share but totally exist.

'Doesn't want to share' you say?

was this

Hoppy, when did you talk to FL about norwee?

in response to

Kanna, Flavor Leaf, A50, Flopz, and Isis have all brought it up at different points actually. it might be some kind of sitewide meme i guess?

a serious question? it's fairly obvious i haven't talked to those 5 people (including Flopz) about norway's meta. how did my response to this impact your read and why are you imaging a scum!hop who would be 'told not to worry' about it?

the toxicity complaints form Norway were in team mafia, not some random game i wouldn't have read

what are your issues with my reasons to TR norway

calling me performative is a big wow

Asking what I was waiting for him to respond to after answering both of my posts directly targeted to him.

where's this?

[Hopkirk]

trying to draw my attention away from looking for scum with a shitpush?

[Hopkirk]

what are your issues with my reasons to TR norway

In a full 50% of games, Norway is scum. You spend your first two posts posting a guide to playing well as scum and establishing specifically that you think Norwee has a weak scumgame. When pushed, you justify this based on meta provided from 5 people: 4 of whom would be incredibly unlikely to share that fmpov. I focused on FL, because he literally siteflaked in the aftermath of a game where he leaned heavily into the narrative that Norwee was the deepwolf. You know, the game Norwee was complaining about FL's (among others) toxicity.

Four pages later you come back with a comment about how you have reasons to townread Norwee, but "who cares about sorting the small hood". This, notably is the entirety of your ISO with the exception of a naked RVS vote on Luke.

why did your brain go from 'four of these people wouldn't say that'
to
'so it must be the fifth'
instead of
'so nobody said that and hopkirk is making it up'
in the second case there's the MUCH more valid question of why i subsequently use it as a reason to TR norway rather than the much weirder/irrelevant 'was it FL' angle you leanred into

[Hopkirk]

what were you waiting on a response from me on?

ah right, here i was asking which one of the questions you were waiting on (or both). because i want(ed) to know if the FL question was serious because it seemed like a stupid fluff question so it was weird you were waiting for a response to it as a serious point

[Hopkirk]

Why are you using the term 'lied' here?

[Hopkirk]

Jingle taking it seriously is weird if he's read a lot of my games
The source of the meta read isn't relevant and there's a lot of stuff that its jokey. I don't remotely understand how your mind went to 'it must have been one of those people' instead of a more reasonable assumption like
- own experience
- made up
- hectic said it
Again, why did you assume it had to be someone in the list and specifically FL. I don't get any of your mindset here

Although I've realized my priors are messed up because I'm not factoring in prior probability of scum. Norway is my most improved over base rate town which probably does even out to less town than some other people, but still leaves me with no intention of voting them especially not in this situation

[Hopkirk]

Lied has connotations that make it sound like it's done with negative or sinister intent. Nothing mala fide about that. You can see from NM's post right afterwards that they got what I was going for.
I said it pretty much because 'memeing is fun' more than any kind of reaction testing.

my vote on lukewarm is still there by choice btw

[Hopkirk]

lukewarm would you feel bad about buddying Marci really hard if you were scum (and your betrayal tore her heart apart etc)

[Hopkirk]

i TR Marci now btw. if you ask me why then i'm going to claim prophetic dreams, but there's better reasons

[Hopkirk]

i had a prophetic dream

[Hopkirk]

also these posts feel less likely to come from someone who's nervous/apologizing for not being good as scum
i'll flick through the scum iso eventually to see if similar approach comes up

But whatever i think we should eliminate in the 6P hood. Because then we can win in day 1 just like the last time Divide and Conquered was hosted.

ur scum

but srsly tho, i agree.

I also think n_m is the scummiest person in the small pool so far for a pretty similar reason, I'm pretty sure he's posted more times so far this game than in the entire game we just played together, and if I thought he was tabled from contention today I would be very far from kind of glad about it.

I have lukewarm leaning scum and Norwegian leaning town.

do u have any fresh takes

Oh and Marcistar. Can you make your current reads known?

i think luke and guiltylions is townies

unsure about everyone else really,
vanderscamps the person who has the worst vibes rn imo.
as well, hopkirk does have weird vibes as well, but it doesnt really seem like scummy weird vibes yet.

i'm not really sure of playstyles here, but dunnstral i dont remember alot from so he sticks out a bit.

The fight is proving you’re townier than the rest of the slots.

what if i promise im town

do u have any reasons or is it actually just a process of elimination smhsmh

last one unrelated to confidence but still marginally +town

[Hopkirk]

lukewarm's TR is also another reason i TR her

[Hopkirk]

^ 'want it more'/level of effort they'll put in as an alignment. i'm guessing you'll give it a 0/10 if you do a slang review here too

lukewarm seems really really different to all of his other games. what's up with that luke?

[Hopkirk]

can you give us a readslist Luke?

[Hopkirk]

game 1

Okay, I have just reached the end of Day 1, and also saw that there was no kill during the night (!!) I plan on making a couple posts, first my general notes that I made just as I read through. Leaving all of them there, even if they chaged throughout my read of the day, just to share my general progression of thoughts.

Then I am going to highlight something that I think was actually a scumslip

Then I will share my over all read list of every player as of, the end of Day 1.

I would like to preface this, that these are all my gut reactions to my first read through, and my opinions are likely to update some as I go back and look at some ISOs

Anyways, my read through notes:

Spoiler: post 0-100

• Post 12, Meuh asking for off site experience, this is a good look imo
  
• Post 22, Town points for Norwegian - scum players don't normally like to alienate other players this much, ditto for 27 and 31.
  
• The Not_Mafia entrance: I hate it. Like it is not a way of playing this game that I enjoy, but I also know from experience that he enters every game this way, so it is NAI
  
• Post 67, Norwee's absolute turn around on Not Mafia is a bit baffling to me haha. Not sure what it indicates, but it definitely stood out.
  
• General Comment: Not getting great vibes from Sama, but not for anything I can pin down
  
• Post 84, Marcistar also asking for prior mafia experience
  
• Post 85, love this post from Meuh. Lots of detail, also helping Tori not get defensive over a RVS. Really seems like she wants people on track to actually scum hunt. Scum would normally let something like Tori's uncertainty of why she was voted just sit. Very pro-town post
  
• Post 87 Bad vibes from Tori. List of 3 scum reads with no reasoning, and 0 town reads. Seems like a new!scum type of post
  
• Post 93, Pear. Making zero content posts is a pretty standard scum tell, but announcing that you are making a zero content post... not sure how to take that one lol
  
• Post 95 Tori did come back with an explanation from post 87, but I dont really care for their logic tbh

Spoiler: Posts 100-200

• Post 100 Meuh again with the town plays, Pressuring the quietest player to try and get content from them
  
• Post 102 Even after being called out for lack of posts, he is still offering very little content. "holding back for now as most of my reads are fairly weak" comes across to me like, "I am scum and unsure of what reads to make to seem most town". On Day 1, town is mostly playing blind, trying to voice a lot of thoughts trying to get responses, build content. Scum is trying to cherry pick Day 1 posts so that they can come across as town / distance from their partner, but not actually incriminate them / pocket other players. So town players are generally more open with thier reads on Day 1, while scum want to make sure they are making the right reads before they post.
  
• Post 103 + 104, Meuh read my mind
  
• Post 105 I am really not liking Tori's reasonings here. They don't like meuh's early town reads because there wasn't a good backing for them, but on the flip side they put out their 3 scum reads without good backing.
  
• Post 119, Bad vibes, cant articulate why, but I feel them
  
• Post 130, Norweigianboy reads my mind on Tori
  
• Post 146 Meuh trying their damnedest to keep the thread alive and full of content. They are a pretty strong town read for me atm
  
• General Comment: No good vibes coming from Sama
  
• Post 174, Catboi repeatedly bringing up Ink's first post, feels very disengenuous to me. His first post of the game, means we were in the RVS stage at that point, and he did not even vote on it. His first vote was on Catboi, and then catboi tried to push back based on Ink's first post of the game. Seems defensive
  
• Post 187, Tori is once again posting only a read list with no logic. Not super helpful for town
  
• Post 189, getting a real bad feeling from the way Catboi has been interacting with the thread so far, he just does not feel like he wants to help in the scum hunting.

Spoiler: Post 200 to end of Day 1

• General Comment: Just hit post
  224 231 234
  259, and that is a lot of people being prodded day 1
  
• Post 239 Catboi with some reads, definitely helping my read on him, I am coming around to the idea of Catboi possibly being town now
  
• Post 255, Hm. Early Day 1 "Not Mafia being a troll is better then any thing else I have to go on" is a reasonable RVS, but 250+ posts in, it seems a bit weak of an argument. Like you should have something to go on, which is better then "but not mafia is a troll," which is better then another blind vote. Negative town points for Meuh.
  
• Post 266 This is why Meuh lost town points for the NM vote, but catboi didn't. he is at least making the case that NM might legitimately be scum this game.
  
• General Comment: Norwee has put a lot of work into defending NM, like a lot. Which is strange considering their opening. If NM ever flips red, I will become suspicious of Norwegianboy
  
• Post 289 Catboi makes a good point. There were only 2 votes on NM, that makes norwee's strong defense even more odd
  
• Post 305 Nice post by Pear. Gaining some town points imo
  
• General Comment: Overall vibe from Norwee has been steadily dropping.
  
• General Comment: General vibe from Catboi also dropping, but they cannot be partners. Currently have them as an either/or scum read
  
• Post 376, Pear has lost their town points. Not liking the mental gymnastics he jumped through in this post to shade Norwee
  
• Post 381, Meuh losing more town points. "I think he is scum, because he is scum reading me" is a really weak stance to take, especially given the fact that she clearly has some mafia experience
  
• Post 401, Incredibly, Meuh is losing even more town points. They started Day 1 building incredible amounts of town cred imo, but by this point, they really are giving off the vibe "almost any vote out is fine by me"
  
• Post 419 Major alarm bells going off! This one deserves its own post to talk about.

Here is my final read list as of the end of Day 1. Then I will work my way through Day 2.

(My strong town read tier is empty)

Meuh

- Meuh was one tier up as of like 80% of the way through Day 1, like almost every post from the beginning of the day just screamed town at me, but they did fall slightly at the end of the day because they came across like they were okay with almost every elim option presented

Not Mafia

- They were yellow, with a note :"if Norwee flips red/green move Not_mafia one tier in that direction" so now they are hanging out here

Marcistar

- I have had mixed reactions to them throughout day 1. They have defenitly been green at various points for me, but they have kind of bounced back and forth between green and yellow..

Samawoodo

- I have gotten mostly negative reactions to their posts, but mainly in a "gut feeling" kind of way, but I did not really spot anything I could pin point as to why I felt that way
(These are the two who I think have the highest potential to move once I do ISOs on them. This is mainly a "need to give them a second look tier atm)

Norwegianboy

- this is where he was for me at the end of the day. I probably would have been on his wagon tbh

Catboi

- Over all not a good vibe from this guy. For the first half of the day, seemed too hesitant to voice their opinion. And when they finally did voice their opinion, they landed on Not_Mafia which seems like the easy way out for a scum imo.

Tori/T3

- to be fair to T3, they mainly get this ranking from the Tori post, but T3 did not really give me anything to pull them back up from where Tori left him

Pearofclubs

- they were a slight scum lean (same as norwegianboy and catboi) even before I read the posts I pointed out, but once I noticed it, it really screamed to me "he is trying to manipulate me" which says scum to me, so he dropped down here.

(I put pearofclubs at the bottom before he responded, and this is supposed to be "where I stood at the end of day 1 anyways. I am going to mull over his response as I read through Day 2).

Looking at it, I am actually surprised how many names I have as red/orange. I feel like I generally end up going the other way with too many town reads. This leaves me with much to think about moving forward.

game 2

I have never replaced into a game before, so not sure the best way to post as I read through. I decided on making periodic posts as I read through the game, with my reads at that point in the game. These reads will likely change as I get closer to being caught up, and even then I won't have done any ISOs (did not realize how much work replacing in was )

Here is my reads from Start of Game, to Day 1 council being formed (page 18). I had a note pad open as I scrolled through, and here are my notes next to each players names

T-Bone
Post 146 - I do not like this from a strategic standpoint. This feels like a bad strategy for town, but a good strategy for Mafia. But I don't think Mafia would blatantly say that lol. Null (maybe slight town) read
Generally slightly mixed feelings for them moving forward. They seem to be harping on Mozamis for a reason I don't agree with (like he seemed mad that they asked for his reads?), but that could stand out to me because this is my slot haha. Then they pressure Enchant pretty hard into giving out his reads, which has a town feel to it.
Currently at very slight town Lean

Almost50
Post 39 - this feels like a post that is purposefully trying to throw suspicion on someone who is clearly memeing mafia. Scum lean
Post 39 - This whole post felt very forced. The heeing and hawing, building up to a read list - all in the same post. Do not like.
Currently Scum Lean

Enchant
Post 39 Strong effort to come up with a winning strategy, and to convince other people to follow it. Town Lean
Post 324 Page 13, no reads...
Post 326 And here they are lol
I do not like that he was so hesitant to give out his reads, but he gives a decent reason behind it (Post412), and over all seems to be activly trying to keep town working towards a winning strategy
Currently Town Lean

Yessiree
The only note I jotted down for him is "bad vibes" lol
I will have to look at him closer moving forward / when I start doing ISOs

Artemiana
I did not write down the specific post, but: good vibes combating, imo, faulty logic.
Followed by: less good vibes
And finally: Good vibes are back.
Town lean

Nono
I got all the way to the council forming, without taking a single note on them. That is not a good look tbh
Scum lean

Mozamis
I was generally ignoring any analysis on my own slot, because I know I am town, but Post 138 has them confidently clearing two players that I have listed as scum leans currently

Battle Mage
After reading the set up, I thought the town should be careful with their heal votes, then he not only advocates for people to start putting votes out there, but he also scum reads people for being hesitant. I made a note of this, and then it kept coming up. Scum lean
Post 69 starts a lot of comments about a supposed scumslip, that does not look like a scum slip to me at all. When I am writing posts to other players, trying to help them see something from a new PoV , I always approach it as if they are town otherwise, I would start a lot of posts with "if you are town, then___". I have felt like that part can be assumed lol. They really doubled down on this too, bringing it up multiple times. Scum lean
I got to this point with a scum lean on them, but every single player (including my slot) town read them. I will have to give them a second look as I go forward and when I ISO them

Raya
Posts 114 and 119, Actively trying to optimize the council mechanic. town lean
Lots of good vibes reading through, but she has an exchange with Enchant that irked me a bit. Specifically the back and forth over Enchants read on Yessiree starting with Enchant post 326.
Mostly good vibes, but one exchange I did not like, still leaves them with a small town lean

I have more notes on interactions, but this is what made it to my reads notes.

Jumping back in, wish me luck!

I planned on working through to the end of Day 2, but I just gotta take a break. Here are my notes on the End of Day 1. I will post my Day 2 analysis once I manage to reach the end of the day.

We voted out scum day 1! That definitely makes a town win easier.

So looking back over Almost50's ISO:

• He started his heal vote as: [Moz, T-Bone, Almost 50]
  
• When he was told that he should not vote for himself, and changed it to [Moz, T-Bone, Yessiree] and held that stance for the entire rest of the day.
  
• When the council was almost settled, he pushed to get either Battle Mage or Atremiana off of the council, and replaced with one of his three.
  
• I think it is safe to assume he wanted a scum on the Council, so I feel like we should all be suspicious of Moz (me lol), Tbone, Yessiree, and this move hard skews both Artemiana and Battle mage as town imo

Almost50's Wagon

• Raya was the first person to vote Almost50, and is wishy washy on the vote, even says that Almost50 isnt her perfered vote. This vote is early enough that she would not have a reason to think it would pass especially with her not making a good case against him
  
• Nono, same as Raya. Early on the wagon, and very noncommittal to the read.
  
• Artemiana I almost want to give her full credit for getting Almost50 voted out, she build the case and convinced others to vote against him. Strong Town lean for that
  
• BattleMage put almost 50 at e-1 when there was still time to work towards moving the vote to Nono or Yessiree. A vote on either one of them would have tied them with Almost 50, meaning he could have at least tried to save Almost50 with very little effort. Strong town lean for that
  
• Enchant's quick hammer on Almost50, pretty much clears him

Battlemage, Artemiana, Enchant

all pretty much cleared at this point. Almost50 tried to pull both Battlemage and Artemiana off of the council, and then Artemiana and Battlemage were instrumental in getting him voted off. Enchant with the quick hammer

Yessiree, TBone

pretty suspicious are my primary suspects. I am most leaning towards Yessiree as Almost50's partner at this point. because they were the sub in when he had to remove himself, ie his heal votes was [pocket attempt on Moz, pocket attempt on Tbone, Scum] the whole time, it just started as himself, and then he swapped in his partner. It could be TBone, but he would have had to have been pretty ballsy to put both scum in his suggestion originally. So imo, Yessiree>TBone

Looking back over Tbone + Yessiree votes

T-bone never suggested a single council line up that did not include himself, which is not a good look.

Yessiree never voted for any combination at all until after it was established that everyone was going to choose one person other then themselves.

Neither one was on the Almost50 wagon either

Neither one voted for Almost50 to be on the council, but also, neither one voted for a full set up that did not include themselves, and also neither one voted for almost50, the scum reads on this are kind of a tie imo

So final reads at the end of Day 1:

• Battle Mage, Artemiana, Enchant
  
  
  Raya
  Nono
  
  
  Tbone
  Yessiree

i haven't fully read any of the games. just skimmed some stuff and things jumped out as noticeably unusual. given 2/3 of Luke's games have been later game sub-ins i did note that he didn't express any difference between joining those and starting off in this game. obviously there's going to be a pronounced difference there, but i think it would have been reasonable to mention that just now when i asked about whether his play was difference. something along the lines of 'yeah, it's a difference experience and x/y/z about the early game' as opposed to no comments.

These two were obviously different in that it was a sub in a bit later on, but the level of detail/analysis going on here makes this game feel a lot more surface level and there's a very marked difference. i'm trying to decipher whether the difference is in terms of scale of stuff he can look at or approach, because i don't think i can isolate anywhere in this game with a similar level of effort/engagement

game 3 i'll put in a separate post because i don't trust myself to format it right otherwise

[Hopkirk]

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=86232&user_select[]=35542

0- hi + vote
1- responding to some why voting X in a direct manner
2- vote/reason on someone with scumread
3 - responding to question about the vote to follow up
4- (a few days in) - has three scumreads and explains a reason for each one + a townread
There's an immediate sense of pressing people + giving reasons for votes and having a clear direction, all of what matches the impression i got from those first few posts in the other games i quoted above.
posts following this are harder to summarize but follow a similar path of having a clear direction and a focus on moving things forward while responding to thing.

this game feels markedly different at the start here where Luke doesn't seem to have a clear direction or any scumreads (still based on the recent readslist i asked for). there's markedly a lot more fluff, which could be due to friends being around/vibing with, so how does the vibing read to other people? either way, there's a lot more setup stuff, fluff, and generally contentless posts. in the other game everything is moving the game forwards and it feels resonably easy to see that even barely reading the posts. there's what seems to be a marked absence of proactivity here. like in the first 20 posts how many actually feel game advancing compared to spinning in place and struggling to get reads?

thoughts?

[Hopkirk]

Can you please spoiler your long posts.

i gave up after the third time the spoiler tags refused to work, presumably because of the spoilers within those posts

[Hopkirk]

Bingle and Lukewarm both have this same unpleasant vibe where they seem to be not really attempting to solve but rather observe what's happening and construct other players actions as suspicious.
To go into more detail, Lukewarms: "Can we talk about how weird Norwee's Marcistar read is".

First of all, why is he just saying "can we talk about", like he's just inviting discussion for it and wants to test the waters rather than actually argue for why it's suspicious for me to push Marcistar? Secondly, why doesn't he try to solve the game rather than just being kinda in the background and discussing? He's not being as pro-active as i'd expect of a town player.
As for Bingle, he seems to mostly be focused on this thing Hopkirk said, which i already said in the hood PT i don't believe is allignment indicative and a waste of time to focus on. Yet now he's brought it further and apparently finds it really suspicious of Hopkirk for some reason. And also it slightly pinged me when Bingle tried to shade me in 306, which coincidentally. Also has to do with my Marcistar read, like they both co-ordinated to try to push me for this.

I could see an Bingle/Lukewarm team.

this is in a large part what i was looking at. lukewarm is incredibly passive in comparsion to the other games i've looked at, especially in the early stages of the most comparable game

[Hopkirk]

i would have just linked the posts but the length is part of the impact. and personally if someone lays out a long set of links to another thread then i uh... usually wouldn't follow them all. or any of them sometimes

[Hopkirk]

Can't tell if scum, or town with a

bad case of OMGUS

reads

VOTE: Hopkirk

can you see the irony in this when i start sussing you and Bingle/you respond with votes? you haven't acknowledged/responded to me on any of that and this feels like a chainsaw defense from Bingle right now

[Hopkirk]

Hopkirk also feels really townie now, i don’t think they would have had this progression on Marcistar if they were scum.
So my townreads now are Hopkirk, Marcistar and Guiltylion. With highest confidence on Hopkirk and GL.
Lukewarm still i have paranoia levels on.
Dunnstral i really want to just ignore as nothing they’ve said is allignment indicative to me.
Leaving a pool of slots i might consider voting next as Vanders/Lukewarm.
I’m actually really interested in Hopkirks Lukewarm read and i’m going to take a closer look at their ISO now to see if i find myself to agree.

This is the only post you've made that even attempts to read Hopkirk, aside from casting shade about him being absent and then retracting it. Note: Hopkirks read progression on marci is basically the same as mine. Unsure -> realizes that the presented meta case doesn't match the shared meta example -> townread. It also came about 2 pages after my reasoning.

Why shouldn't I think you're possibly aligned?

my different reasoning you mean?

[Hopkirk]

I generally feel like "Norway has low WIM as scum" is likely to be something Hopkirk felt is true regardless of his alignment in this game (or nEE's for that matter), like I don't think he's going to just make up a complete lie about another player's scum meta, especially when naming specific players as references. however I do not see why he deflected a question about it instead of just saying where he might have seen FL comment on it, so I can sympathize with Bingle's suspicion there. If this is a premeditated push from scum!Bingle I think it would be hard for him to continue pushing it if Hopkirk had brought receipts, but at the same time I could envision scum pouncing on a townie's careless remarks about meta, so I don't know if it's strictly a town-indicative push especially since odds are not in Bingle's favor.

It's not necessarily the belief that Norwee is low WIM as scum, that I find suspicious. It's the arbitrary attempt to add credibility to the claim. TownHopkirk says "Norwee has low WIM as scum" because he thinks that. Scum Hopkirk says {Laundry List of Players} say Norwee has low WIM as scum because he gains from us believing that.

The lukewarm wagon is pretty meh, tbh. I don't see anything wrong with his play and I think Hopkirk is very obviously scummy. Feels like an attempt to distract me.

In a Hopkirk/Norwee world, the belief that

Norwee is weakscum is helpful because it makes it easier for Norwee to be townread on effort.

In a Hopkirk/N_M world he sets up a ml on Norwee for being low WIM when being in a neighborhood with N_M is likely to cause Norwee to be low WIM.

Also, I just spent 10 minutes looking for an image in my ISO from a halfremembered game to post as a joke.

the problem with this logic is that the most likely reason for me to make it as either alignment is the same
town - i thought it was funny
scum - i thought it was funny (strategic shading being comparatively ridiculously unlikely)

you've clearly started with assuming that i'm scum here given you're ignoring both the most likely motivation and the NAI nature of it to focus on a scum motivation. you're saying it *could* have come from some without drawing the link to why that means me saying it is scum & your apparent confidence makes it sound like you haven't even considered weighing up (town joking) vs (scum joking + scum positioning)

i don't think see how you believe that i make that post thinking the bolded outcomes are reasonably advanced by the post.
- 'So that Norway can tactically break his meta' - no reason to bring it up at the start
- 'setting up a norway lethal' - we're voting in the 6p + ignores the fact that Norway does effort harder as town. like this logic is notably bad.

there's no way that 'Hopkirk made the post to set up a future Norway misexile when Norway is low wim' would be more likely than it being a throwaway comment. especially when apart from anything else,

if i think town norway is low wim then why does scum!hop try and set up a lethal that only goes through if norway isn't low wim?

that especially really doesn't follow through, and you're overly focused on a conclusion that you seem to have started with

[Hopkirk]

Can't tell if scum, or town with a

bad case of OMGUS

reads

VOTE: Hopkirk

can you see the irony in this when i start sussing you and Bingle/you respond with votes? you haven't acknowledged/responded to me on any of that and this feels like a chainsaw defense from Bingle right now

ok i may have missed 383

[Hopkirk]

that post was posted roughly the same time as your one as timestamps should show.
i skimmed this morning and forgot about that then decided to respond to stuff in reverse chronology

[Hopkirk]

Ok yeah reading 383 again it doesn’t address anything I said in a direct way. I’ll put it in list form
- (376) – lacking a clear direction/scumlean early on and acting notably more confused on where you want to push
- (376) – substantially more fluff/no content posts comparative to previous games (linked to below point)
- (376) – linked to above, no clear sense of proactively. It feels like you’re hanging back a lot more
- (372) – key point here was why you didn’t comment that these were different

The only thing I can see you addressing is the second point on level of fluff/contentless posting

^ 'want it more'/level of effort they'll put in as an alignment. i'm guessing you'll give it a 0/10 if you do a slang review here too

lukewarm seems really really different to all of his other games. what's up with that luke?

^ 'want it more'/level of effort they'll put in as an alignment. i'm guessing you'll give it a 0/10 if you do a slang review here too

lukewarm seems really really different to all of his other games. what's up with that luke?

In what ways do you believe I am playing differently?

As a self diagnosis, the only thing I can think of is the buddying with Marci, but think that that has been pretty well explained - she is the reason I am in this game lol.

Spoiler:

I think that I just don't like the first half of Day 1

In response to Hopkrik:

I took my first game quite seriously - The game that Hop linked to / described in 376. Was a Newie game, with zero activity... Like Day 1 ended after 275 total posts in 10 irl days. . So I was simultaneously, a complete newb, trying-harding, and worried about the state of the thread. (Was vanilla townie)

Then I played in this game, tried to take it seriously, and realized

{snip}

So I decided that maybe I needed to take the game a bit less seriously if I was gonna enjoy this game,

-Replaced out of that game for an unrelated reason (conflict with another player), but my slot has since died, and revealed to be a Vanilla Townie.
So, I tried taking it seriously, and the response was... unpleasant. Decided I should take Day 1 less seriously if I am going to enjoy games on this site.

Then tried replacing into games to see how that felt (see hopkirk 372), and honestly kinda liked it because you get to skip Day 1. There is lots of content, and it is a lot easier to get a foot hold into the game imo.

And now I am here. Started Day 1 instead of replacing in, tried to seriously figure out the mechanical side of the game, but otherwise tried to approach it more laid back.

Just trying to have a good time

in relation to the point on you not commenting on playing differently, these feel notably inconsistent. 383 is the kind of thing i was asking for in 356, but you responded with 'i can't see any differences' instead of more reasonable explanations as you provided in 383. if 383 had been in place of 358 then some of my initial issues would have been mitigated. it feels less convincing post facto

[Hopkirk]

luke do u trust bingle?

Honestly, it is less that I trust Bingle, and more that both Not_Mafia and Norwee have given me reasons not to trust them.

Not_Mafia seems way different then he has in any other game I have played in with him + post 250 makes no sense imo. You feel completely different this game then you did in the last.

Norwee on the other hand, it feels like maybe he tried to pocket me? Like go through his iso and search for every time he mentions me. Its agree with me, thank me, town read me, town read me harder, defend me from other people. Then I pointed out he did something suspicious, and suddenly I am his number 1 vote.

I honestly don't know which of them is the scum, but if I suspect both of them, then I guess that means Bingle is probably town?

this isn't a good reason to TR Bingle or to scumread either of these people. you know one of those scumleans is wrong, so why are you assuming the other one has to be right?

- why is not_mafia doing that scum indicative? obviously given it's a VERY noticable difference then why aren't people like Bingle shouting that this is how NM plays as scum? presumably the change is NAI/based on a decision from NM to play like this. can you reconcile them making that decision with them being scum moreso than you can with them being town?
- why wouldn't you expect town!norway to be sus of you at that point? what incentive does scum!norway have, purely with an exile on you as motivation?

[Hopkirk]

I finally went over this, and I'm baffled that anyone could consider it a good case.

First of all, Hopkirk is comparing replacement catchup walls to a game with literally half the content (in the case of the shorter replacement wall) both in number of phases and in number of pages to content from the beginning of a game that's running exceptionally slowly.

Secondly, this is the super content rich post from a few days in referenced in the second half of the case:

Spoiler:

My scumreads are Whemestar, Ivyeo and Clasko.

I explained my reasoning for Whemestar earlier.

Ivyeo does not seem to be contributing much to the conversation, and what they are sending is very wishy-washy. Their messages so far have been a vote, a quick unvote, and then this one:

Whilst I do see the scummyness in Wheme's posts, I'm not sure we want to cut Day 1 discussion to right here.

They just seem like they are being overly cautious, which I feel is more likely with a scum then a town.



Clasko hardly said anything until someone questioned it, then he town-read whemestar (my biggest scum vibes) because

their argument feels cyclical and non-scripted = less chance to be W v. W

And I don't understand the logic. Why would deducing that they are not BOTH scum automatically mean that neither one is?



I am town reading Demainer using Clasko's logic. It does not seem like a scum v scum conversation, and I think that whemestar is the more likely scum of the pair.

Compared to:

Spoiler:

What other substance am I supposed to have already put into the thread?

Imo, the first order of business was figuring out which neighborhood we are going to be voting in today, so that is the conversation I have been engaging with the most so far. At this point, I think I am pretty settled on saying that we should vote from the 6p neighborhood.


At this point, I am really waiting for more content from Dunnstral, Vanderscamp, Hopkirk, and marcistar before I can really get started with my new goal of figuring out who we should vote for today.

The only read I actually have so far is a town read on Marci, because I think scum!marci would have played into my banter to attempt to pocket me, but no pocket attempt was made.

I think that the mafia put Norwee+N_M in the 3 person group because they knew it would lead to conflict, and put a lot of noise in the thread. And that strategy appears to be paying off, because they are doing exactly that. But that still leaves the question of whether you did it, and the 2 town players are falling for it, or if one of them did it as scum, and is egging on the other.

I am a little surprised at the amount of posts coming form Not_Mafia, in my expereince with him he has been a lot more sparse. In our last game he made 63 posts spread out over 30 days, and then in this game he is at 29 posts in like 6 hours, and that was also a game that had both Norwee and Not_Mafia in it...

So I am a bit suspicious that this is that "one of them did it as scum, and is egging on the other"

So of the three of you, I think it might actually be Not_Mafia... but he is such a hard person to read, by design, and it seems like his reputation has resulted in him almost having a site wide immunity from Day 1 eliminations.

So I am kind of glad we are not voting in the 3 player neighborhood today.

What other substance am I supposed to have already put into the thread?

Imo, the first order of business was figuring out which neighborhood we are going to be voting in today, so that is the conversation I have been engaging with the most so far. At this point, I think I am pretty settled on saying that we should vote from the 6p neighborhood.


At this point, I am really waiting for more content from Dunnstral, Vanderscamp, Hopkirk, and marcistar before I can really get started with my new goal of figuring out who we should vote for today.

The only read I actually have so far is a town read on Marci,

because I think scum!marci would have played into my banter to attempt to pocket me

, but no pocket attempt was made.

Marci is literally successfully pocketing you...

I think the "no pocket attempt was made" might have oversold my point, and caused you to overlook my true position in bold. I did not mean to say that just anyone would have behaved that way. Specifically, I think scum!marci would have played into the banter.

I am walking into this game on the heels of a game where Marci was scum. In that game, her first couple of posts leaned pretty heavily into bantering back and forth between the player she had played with before. And it worked, that player gave her a town read Day 1. So when I tried to put banter in place with her this game, and she met that banter with suspicion, both here and in the Neighborhood thread, it feels like the opposite of how she reacted in the last game (where she was scum).

So I am concluding that the difference was that in that game, she already knew the other person alignment, and her goal was pocketing the player she played with before, and in this game, her goal is to figure out the alignment of the player she played with before.

From literally the day the thread opened.

Hopkirk's meta case is clearly disingenuous bullshit.

from me

i did note that he didn't express any difference between joining those and starting off in this game. obviously there's going to be a pronounced difference there, but i think it would have been reasonable to mention that just now when i asked about whether his play was difference.

this was about half the text of the post you're referring to. the text in read does not feel like a genuine/good faith reading of that so much as ignoring it to try and make it sound like i'm saying something i'm not.

this game feels markedly different at the start here where Luke doesn't seem to have a clear direction or any scumreads

since you didn't bother quoting the actual problem i had. 376 DOES NOT MENTION THE WORD ANALYSIS. it's about

lack of direction/scumreads

compared to the first. you can tell because that's the words i used when i was talking about it. have a look back to 376 and please explain how i'm talking about lack of analysis in that post. the three posts you quoted literally demonstrate my point. there's no clear scumreads there/it feels like they haven't started looking. don't try and put words in my mouth that drastically alter the meaning of what i'm saying

also it's not a case btw. i'm below 50% on Luke!scum. i don't like the way you're framing this as it feels divisive. Bingle!scum can easily be with town!luke or scum!luke

[Hopkirk]

Can't tell if scum, or town with a

bad case of OMGUS

reads

VOTE: Hopkirk

can you see the irony in this when i start sussing you and Bingle/you respond with votes? you haven't acknowledged/responded to me on any of that and this feels like a chainsaw defense from Bingle right now

I did not suspect you immediately after you made a case against me. I responded to your case as best as I could. I took the suspicion in good faith, and tried to imagine why I would feel different in this game compared to my other completed game where I started Day 1. I did not even go back and look at that game,

I just assumed you had a decent reason to think they were different.

Then Bingle came in with 402 and when he showed the post that you were refering to as my post with reads / reasoning, and I realized that your case was in bad faith.

Like, in that game, I had 4 posts by the end of the 3rd day. In this game I had 41 by the end of the 3rd day. So if you are claiming that that game I was doing more to move the game forward, I no longer think you are making your case in good faith.

you've literally accepted the differences are major due to you subbing in.

.

here's a new problem

I just assumed you had a decent reason to think they were different.

inherently contradicts the point that this game has been very different due to being here in the start that you mentioned in 383. do you see how both of these things can't be true? either you were aware of a difference after i pointed it out OR you 'assumed i had a decent reason to think they were different' but weren't aware of a difference yourself at the time

taking my questioning in good faith requires you to read it and look at the things i'm quoting, otherwise you're not actually engaging with it
you had notably more scumreads. here you don't+/didn't feel like you had reads. do you disagree with this?
please explain which bits of my posts you specifically disagree with, what's in bad faith, and look at the post i made a few minutes back highlighting what i don'tthink you've engaged with

[Hopkirk]

also i've raised a lot of questions about bingle's selective rephrasing and weird logical leaps there that i'd be interested for you to weigh in on if you were currently nullreading/POE reading bingle then that seems like a decent place to get a more AI read from

[Hopkirk]

as a yes or not question because i can't tell which you're saying: would you consider 'i subbed into two of those games much later on so this game has been a different experience' to count as 'playing differently'

[Hopkirk]

'i play differently when the context is different' is an incredibly reasonable statement. it feels really weird that being in this one from the start vs being in 2/3 of the others from much later didn't register as different. especially with the defensiveness of 'i can't read your mind' when i'm commenting on it. how come that didn't register, what kind of thing did you

think

i meant in terms of difference if, with your lack of psychic ability, assumed i was asking about?

[Hopkirk]

also full disclosure i uh... asked whether you thought you were playing differently before looking back through your games. it's a pretty fun question to ask people

[Hopkirk]

That's pretty insulting. I get mad when people scumread me and I'm taking it as basically a personal attack that you're not acknowledging the level of rage I experience at bad sus on me. It makes me rage down to the depths of my heart.

[Hopkirk]

Does anyone have a read on dunnstral? It's hard to sort with this little content.

@dunn - you've seen my last two scumgames from the town side and the scumside. You're scumreading me?

[Hopkirk]

553
- we both know that scum don't intentionally make up words. assuming this is 'scum posting provably false quotes' is stupid. content rich clearly = analysis. if you think someone lies about this kind of thing then i can't help you
- you didn't have any genuine reasons for a scumread. the stuff about FL/justifying a joke is the stupidest thing i've read on this site since last game with agar
- because the post i pointed to in the other game has multiple directly stated scumreads in a couple of posts rather than a couple of slight leans in about 30 posts. clear difference.

that wasn't as much as that long post that double quoted long posts looked like

[Hopkirk]

i'm not giving Bingle the benefit of the doubt here because from what i've heard about him he

should

be too good to tunnel on something as stupid as the FL/Flopz/Isis etc said something about WIM and on a push against Bingle like that (that he knows isn't coming from scum hop given he's read my last 3 scumgames). i don't really buy him being this bad?

[Hopkirk]

oh yeah, Jingle's alleged convinction is incredibly out of line with what's reasonable. i'm not super confident on Luke because this can easily be Scum!Bingle throwing shade at me/norway with the intent of letting a Luke wagon go through today then plan to shade me/norway from it. Scum!Bingle doesn't need to care about openwolfing when he's not at a realistic risk of us voting him on account of the setup/stated desires to vote in the 6p pool

I'll hammer Scamp if he hits E-1 on the premise we turbolim Hop then Norwee after.

Would you agree to a vote on you given the same premise?

we all know we're voting in the 6p pool so this question is pointless

[Hopkirk]

And like Marcistar said, apparently Bingle thought it was a 50/50% chance either N_M or me could be scum with Hopkirk, his pet scumread. But now he is 100% sure it’s me and Hopkirk to the extent he will quickhammer someone he townreads just to eliminate us? Thst’s some scummy garbage.
VOTE: Bingle

I agree with this

I'd like to hear what bingle thinks is different about me this game vs last game which would justify him being willing to hammer me here.

I’m townreading all of Dunn/Marci/GL/Luke. People are aggressively ignoring how obvscum norwee and hopkirk are.

If I have to lim you to get norwee/hopkirk, so be it.

can you outline town!dunn and town!GL?

[Hopkirk]

I'll hammer Scamp if he hits E-1 on the premise we turbolim Hop then Norwee after.

Would you agree to a vote on you given the same premise?

Yes.

Okay. Here is what I am thinking. Bingle is (from what I can tell from other games) an extremely good scum hunter. Like multiple people in other games looking at his scum reads like they are gospel. And here, he is either scum, or he is 100% convinced he has found the scum.

I am no longer willing to consider any vote outside of [Norwee, Hopkirk, Bingle], and if we vote Bingle and he is town, then we immediately follow through on his Hopkirk read.

so Norway is your top scumread currently (with me presumably)
your last mentions of NM outside of him being inactive were to say he was your top SR (without him posting since i think)
you'd be willing to vote Bingle (and this is phrased in a way that scum would say to chain mislims)

i don't understand this take and i'm reading it as though you're really hedging the spread here. do you think this is unfair?
can you talk some more about your thoughts on each person in the 3p pool here? is Bingle still a 'Townread because you scumread the other two' and is NM now a townread?

[Hopkirk]

Bingle/Luke
Luke/Notmafia
Bingle/Dunn
Vanders/Notmafia
Dunn/Notmafia

that's what i want to look at associatives between later

[Hopkirk]

I have read up but it is late and I'm tired and I need to sleep on things before really diving back into this game, I'll be around tomorrow

my current laying in bed hot takes:

- Lukewarm posted a great point in our hood about how scum!Bingle would have hard defended both marcistar and Lukewarm slots away from potential elimination today and to what gain? If it's something like a Bingle-Dunn or Bingle-Vanderscamp team, that's playing fairly awkwardly as it's strictly increasing chance of autoloss. I was kinda waiting to see if Lukewarm would raise the same points in the thread, but he hasn't?

- Overall I do find Bingle scummiest in the 3p hood in a vacuum but

I'm struggling to see winning partner candidates

due to the above ^. This is one of the matters I intend to sleep on. If you're in this game and scumreading Bingle but townreading Lukewarm/marcistar I need help seeing why Bingle is playing the way he's playing - who is his partner and how do they win after we eliminate a town!Hopkirk?

- Vander's reply to me is alright, I guess. I feel a bit more town vibes from him now that he's actually playing, I still disagree with a few of points, should probably cede a few others

- I thiiiiink I agree Bingle/Hopkirk really doesn't feel TvT, eliminating either way there is likely a good call for D1. I do intend to sleep on this and look at all the Bingle/Hopkirk posts in closer detail so no flashwagons tonight plz

@GL- why do you see reasons that Bingle wouldn't be aligned with Dunn

[Hopkirk]

scum!bingle lowers the pool to enough for a POE win here i think so if you can hard towntell that would be great Not_mafia

[Hopkirk]

my brain is sitting here telling me to look at the Vand/NM scumteam a lot more heavily so if you can give me less work then that would be great

[Hopkirk]

Current takes from me and my alts
Hopkirk- i want to keep pushing bingle as much as because he's annoying me because as scumreads
Sarah- so like... scum don't shitpush this hard in practice so you're wrong on Bingle!scum which makes NM much more susssss... plus like vanders is obvscum lol. you blind or something
(real name redacted)- I'm not really sure. I'm town on Norway/Marc and Vanders is definitely pinging me right now. I want to look more at him. A lot of his takes feel weird right now.
Hoppy - Bingle is a big meanie but probably isn't scum unless small pool. ugh i really need to solve dunn's alignment to solve this
Hoctic with a simulated hectic - Norway is town, remember what i told you about his WIM
Hipkork - lOl ReAdS, sToP tRyHaRdInG nOoB!

[Hopkirk]

i'm at most 50% on Bingle scum

[Hopkirk]

it's probably like 50-35-15

[Hopkirk]

if Bingle is town then the fact 3-4 people want to set up multiple votes is pretty concerning which is part of why i was looking at vanders more

[Hopkirk]

i'm probably overthinking things and the openwolf is just a wolf

[Hopkirk]

Bingle who if anyone do you have as direct/strong townreads purely on the basis of play unrelated to you/me/Luke interactions?

[Hopkirk]

If it was notmafia who else would it be bingle?

[Hopkirk]

Bingle isn't my top scumread.

[Hopkirk]

Current takes from me and my alts
Hopkirk- i want to keep pushing bingle as much as because he's annoying me because as scumreads
Sarah- so like... scum don't shitpush this hard in practice so you're wrong on Bingle!scum which makes NM much more susssss... plus like vanders is obvscum lol. you blind or something
(real name redacted)- I'm not really sure. I'm town on Norway/Marc and Vanders is definitely pinging me right now. I want to look more at him. A lot of his takes feel weird right now.
Hoppy - Bingle is a big meanie but probably isn't scum unless small pool. ugh i really need to solve dunn's alignment to solve this
Hoctic with a simulated hectic - Norway is town, remember what i told you about his WIM
Hipkork - lOl ReAdS, sToP tRyHaRdInG nOoB!

I think you can see pretty clearly here I'm not sure on how it'll go. Luke making comments like 'Hop must be not voting Bingle because scum' rather than because I'm clearly trying to solve bingle (eg when I just said he was 50% scum at best). I didn't vote bingle because I'm unsure and didn't want his hammered. You're insane if you think 'town hop wouldn't put his vote on someone he's scumleaming but sorting' when there literal intent to hammer. Are you not reading my posts luke, or just ignoring them?

Jingle associative
- Jingle/Dunn likely don't both commit to a shitpush when they know I'm going to react badly to it. Dunn I'd say is less likely.
- Vanders probably less likely from the vote.
- Marc I'm Tring
- GL pushed back against bingle

It's just luke. On a Luke townflip then Bingle would be a townlean. The opposite isn't true. That's why I'm voting Luke, but also considering Vanders.

[Hopkirk]

Luke is basically pushing a bingle exile with the intent to push me on a townflip which makes Bingle/Luke only super likely if they didn't see any other choice/wanted another lair of wifom in it so idk about that

[Hopkirk]

Does Luke make so many ridiculously overtly scummy posts with a partner like Bingle who'd presumably be saying in the scum QT 'stop saying thing that sound ridiculously scummy'? I feel like there'd be coaching there and Luke wouldn't keep openly trying to line up Muslims.

[Hopkirk]

mislims + autocorrect + not reading posts = stuff that sounds terrible...

[Hopkirk]

Oh, and look who suddenly knows I’m flipping town. Lim hopkirk. This is transparent.

(if you're town):
...who selfvoted then you should think very carefully about your playstyle after this because you'll have basically come in and done literally nothing but fuck over the town with complete inflexibility and frankly shit reads that you weren't willing to think critically about for a minute. like if you're town and we lose you basically threw. this is 100% on you. i tried to reach out to you repeatedly and you shat on me every single time without willing to rethink/consider very basic issues with what you were saying. think about how you play mafia

[Hopkirk]

like that was a self-hammer since you made the vote knowing that NM was going to vote you. if this flips town then i'm pissed and you've lost the respect i had for you as a player before this. the amount of self-hammers i see from town ruining a good half of my games is pissing me off.

[Hopkirk]

Oh, and look who suddenly knows I’m flipping town. Lim hopkirk. This is transparent.

i've been trying to work with you for fucking days to sort you and i'd have voted you a hell of a lot sooner as scum. this is actually insulting no matter what alignment you are

[Hopkirk]

I still think Bingle could be flipping scum here and he's just mad and trying to make us think we're bad for eliminating him.

i was starting to lean more towards not_mafia
then bingle decided to self hammer which at this point i've been fucked by so many times that the chance he's probably just shit!town becomes even more likely

[Hopkirk]

I think Bingle has found the scum team, but too many people are scum reading him for his reads and pushes to go through.

Hard confirming Bingle as town is the second best way to get us to a win here (outside of us just voting for Hopkirk, but no one listened to that idea), because no one can argue "but he is lying because he is scum." Instead if people want to ignore Bingle's reads, they are going to have to argue that Bingle is not good at spotting scum, and I think that is a harder case to make.

quit hiding behind bingle you actual coward. how about saying one single sentence without an appeal to authority

[Hopkirk]

i'm considering what sarah was talking about before the hammer more now - the world where Bingle/Luke are both town. Luke's play is bad in such an open way that do scum even do it? it could be ridiculously newb scum but is that even likely?

[Hopkirk]

how does Vanderscamp/notmafia sound to you Marci?

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: vanderscamp

[Hopkirk]

Vanders/Luke>GL slightly>Dunn>Marc but i might reread

[Hopkirk]

UNVOTE: Vanders
Maybe I'll reread before voting

[Hopkirk]

nothing especially strong
- Timing of Bingle's shitpush coming when you were wagoned
- Willingness to vote any of (GL/Hop/Dunn) - essentially everyone except Marc (who nobody seems to SR) or Luke (you were more sus of them before Bingle hard pocketed them, so again a timing thing with Bingle)
- Bingle's weird perspective on you mitigating your preference against bussing because it would have been premeditated to give you towncred on a Bingle scum!flip (but after looking back i don't think this initial perspective holds up well)

i've changed my mind though

Dunn moved towards the better end because of what he said. It's super overt for both of them to push me when he knows I'm going to react to being pushed. i can still see it though

VOTE: GuiltyLion

[Hopkirk]

i'll reread today. if i don't then free to call me 'Hopdork' or equally mean names.

[Hopkirk]

UNVOTE: GL

[Hopkirk]

there's some takes from vanders in the last days i didn't really like but i am too tired to reread properly
Luke is openwolfing super hard and i want that to flip scum but am not sure if it did. need to look back at d1 a looooot more there
i think GL went up a bit but i need to reread d1
dunn isn't posting

we're at the point where 1 correct TR from the pool should be the POE win which is nice. idk why people are trying to take this quickly. we have what, 2 week deadlines at a guess? i don't see any reason not to drag this out for up to 40 days. that way even if scum win they still

suffer

[Hopkirk]

scum!vanders' yesterday would essentially have been planning to either a.) bus, or b.) vote me when another town voted me (Bingle/Lukewarm/Dunn/Vanders/X) wagon. there's not really a credible enough push from vanders onto any other slot yesterday (Marci being too TR to push through), and Bingle's only serious push being me. given vanders pushed back on lukewarm when there were 3 votes on me i'm not sure i buy b, and based on meta i'm not sure i buy a.

stuff from other games on bussing
-viewtopic.php?p=12738362#p12738362 (bringing it up as a defence to self/saying does it infrequently)
-viewtopic.php?p=12649297#p12649297 (anti-bussing coming up in scumchat when partner asks how they feel about bussing)

I think I believe the stuff Norwegian is saying about what he would do as scum regarding the hoods

VOTE: not_mafia

I have lukewarm leaning scum and Norwegian leaning town.

early townread on Norway which cuts down on a decent amount of options

I’m extremely bad at reading Dunnstral. If you can explain how he thinks and plays as scum, and why he wouldn’t be bold like that, feel free to enlighten me.

Dunn likes to low effort as both alignments ime. Calling out a partner as sus while voting one of the other people in the pool is something that is going to inevitably look bad and without the context of the last game it isn't a safe assumption we'll solve in the 6p first.

Is Dunn capable of being bold like that? Sure. Would Dunn actually draw late game attention to himself for a throwaway RVS vote? I don't think so, when he very much prefers to take the back seat and passively manipulate the thread.

I don't like or understand this.

Why do you think Dunn is being bold?
Because I don't think a throwaway RVS vote is being bold in any way, and I haven't seen anything from him that contradicts him taking the back seat and passively manipulating.

Additionally, he wasn't directly calling n_m sus, he was just speculating on why he was in the pool. It might have been indirect but even if it was, it's not like a super bold statement to make.

the stuff about dunn here reads as kind of awkward

I think bingle is now more scummy than n_m for the stuff I quoted.
I like a lot what Norwegian is saying.

I also think nor_GL is a scum team that absolutely does not exist because of what nor is saying about GL, I don't think nor would be calling GL confirmed town from what GL said if they were scum together.

initial dislike of Bingle comes before Bingle decides to start taking shots at me. is pushing here relatively early

Bingle can you talk about what I asked you about Dunn?

NM being in the group of 3 is an anomoly. Is it because the deep scum is in the pool of 6 and NM is the other scum, or because they want to miselim NM in the smaller group?

VOTE: Bingle

This has serious reasoning on 1/3 of the small pool and a vote on a different 1/3 of the small pool.

If N_M flips scum, Dunn looks weird for having posted it and there's nothing to gain from having posted it. There's really nothing more that can be elaborated on there. Either you agree with the thought or you don't.

I very much disagree, I'm pretty neutral on the post but I actively dislike your analysis of it.

Dunn is not being bold here or giving serious reasoning, he is giving empty speculation without ever actually coming to a conclusion about it. I think this kind of analysis is super easy for scum to give because it sounds gamesolvey, but it doesn't actually take a stance or anything or advance the game. And the motivation to post it as scum is to sound like you are game solving when you actually aren't.
I don't think it's bold and I don't think it's serious reasoning, and what you said earlier about him calling one person scum in the pool and voting another person from the pool is not correct.

VOTE: bingle

this is already more shade than Vanders threw at Menal in the game with scum!vanders. i like the attack vanders is making i think?

Can everyone in the 6p hood share their read on Marcistar too? Because N_M and Bingle’s reads on her are 50/50 contaminated from my POV.

Outside of what lukewarm said, scummy, I don't like the fact that she is very willing to comment on anything to do with her but basically nothing about anyone else or the rest of the game.

not the most beneficial wagon to push if looking for an alternative to bingle + does follow up on this

Idk, I'm still happy voting bingle for what was a pretty weird analysis of Dunn's post

i think scum!vanders should have gotten something out of me/Bingle? it'd be a good excuse to. scum!vanders at this point would be committed to the bus with the only real alternative being a pivot to me (doesn't really fit with his push on Bingle when Bingleis pushing me). i guess a Dunn wagon would be possible, but vanders never goes for that

Hop, why do you think Marci's town?

follow up

Of the small pool I think Norwegian is towny and bingle and n_m are both scummy.

I strongly dislike bingle saying he's willing to hammer me, last game (where we were both town) he had a strong town read on me, I think GL's reasons on me here are decently worse than the cases made against me last game (with the exception of pooky's) and I don't believe he'd randomly be happy to hammer me here on the assumption that we're somehow going to kill a couple people that there is not a lot of strong consensus towards.

I would kill Dunn pretty happily in the big pool because of the complete lack of content, I read Marci as town from the meta about which pool she would be in despite reading her content as scummy.
I think I like lukewarm now, I'm null on hopkirk and I dislike GL pretty much exclusively because of his reasons for wanting to kill me.

I'll hammer Scamp if he hits E-1 on the premise we turbolim Hop then Norwee after.

Would you agree to a vote on you given the same premise?

Yes.

Okay. Here is what I am thinking. Bingle is (from what I can tell from other games) an extremely good scum hunter. Like multiple people in other games looking at his scum reads like they are gospel. And here, he is either scum, or he is 100% convinced he has found the scum.

I am no longer willing to consider any vote outside of [Norwee, Hopkirk, Bingle], and if we vote Bingle and he is town, then we immediately follow through on his Hopkirk read.

No, because I'm not going to blindly sheep someone's read just because they're a good player.

I don't mind killing hopkirk, especially if bingle flips town, but I think if bingle is town n_m is much more likely to be scum than Norwegian, I'm strongly against sheeping that one just for the sake of it.

not minding killing me here is really bad if he switched. i feel like that

probably

would have gone through but would be really difficult to justify later whereas scum!bingle flips basically clears me. it doesn't feel tactically beneficial to stick to the guns here instead of taking the opportunity when he could have made a momentum swing

[Hopkirk]

^ that was thinking town Vanders btw

rereading all the isos (except Marci and NM) or until it gets too late atm. i haven't actually read up to date but have skimmed some stuff over the last few days while not really feeling like posting because i've been aware i'd need to hard reread to actually solve it

hood
- Marci comes off as townish in the initial interactions with Luke
- GL's opening is arguably lamist but can also be just how he talks
- I wonder where Lukewarm got it being 'beneifical for the more experiened scum to be in the bigger hood'. did this come up directly in your previous game, or is it potentially something scum!bingle said to Luke pregame?
- slight townread on bingle as of May 11th (albeit qualified). didn't Luke have bingle as null in a later readlist?
- GL pushing Bingle as most likely scum in the 3. need to compare this to main thread and follow through (Also May 11th)
- Dunn reminding GL that mafia have daytalk (does town GL forget?)
- Luke wanting to try and reaction test the 3p is slightly town indicative because it doesn't sound good and is a weird thing to propose as scum when they know how pointless it would be
- Marc trying to talk Luke out of a bad tunnel on me that could have led somewhere is a good look
- I don't think i buy Luke's logic that it's 'dangerous' for scum!luka to step in against attacks on Luke/Marci? like it's beyond obvious here that scum!bingle is hard pushing me there, so scum bingle doesn't care about (MArci) being less likely to be pushed d1 because not getting me pushed out is the failure condition of the hard push. stepping in against Luke is either pocketing or partner indicative which i need to review on rereads of Bingle/Luke's isos.
- Luke 'not seeing' who Bingle is partnered with while discounting (Hopkirk/Marci) is weird. why not Dunn/Vanders/GL)- this was on the 15th so i want to compare it to inthread reads at the time. i don't see why Luke wouldn't consider things like Bingle/Dunn, so 'i can't see any possible partners' is an off stance to take
- Luke post bingle flip is acting a lot more like they were willing to vote Bingle than i believe they genuinely were

- has Dunn ever explained how he thought that it was me AND Bingle yesterday? voting me yesterday + thinking it was Bingle as well doesn't make sense unless he's still considering me today? need to check what his read is there. i don't like the response to GL on this because it dodges the question. 'i wanted to vote in the 6p' doesn't explain why he'd vote his (top scumread's) hard push unless he has reasons to think the Bingle push was a bus then
- does anyone think NM ever dies over Norway realistically. i don't

---
Stuff i'm going to be baring in mind when rereading GL because it's stuff Hectic SR him for in open 791 when GL was scum/any meta tells around this are reasonably likely to work
- reads not feeling real
- statements about thinking x without justifying why logically
- overly strong early TR?
- trying to push people for reasons he thinks look good to look townie (early lamist)
- later pushes over mech stuff +/ not feeling in good faith. going for the easy one (scum GL would be going for Luke>Vanders here if this applies probably?)
- sporadic posting. presumably low wim? forces himself to pot in burst. i'll look at this but i think he's been relatively consistent here? is there any rethinking of stuff when he doesn't need to be?

random thought to insert - scum!Luke would presumably like the GL/Vanders 1v1 to continue so pushing Dunn here really makes sense with their current incentives (note - although luke said this before the fight started so nevermind)

[Hopkirk]

Dunnstral
Vanderscamp
GuiltyLion
Hopkirk
Lukewarm
marcistar

I'm leaning town on Hopkirk
I want to lean town on Vanderscamp but I'm not there yet

VOTE: Lukewarm

I reread Vanderscamp, not feeling like voting there

I don't want to vote for Marci or Guiltylion either

So for me it's Luke or hopkirk in the 6

VOTE: Hopkirk

i still need this explained because it's a bad vote

[Hopkirk]

reskimmed norway. their thoughts align with what i'm looking at atm.
prior to rereading (Bingle/GL/Luke) i'm thinking it's between Luke/Dunn.
i'm start with bingle because i'm doing this least involved to most involved

[Hopkirk]

Assuming N_M scum we're left with:

Dunnstral
Hopkirk
marcistar

Vanderscamp's ISO doesn't lend itself well to being allied with N_M imo. Ping me if you disagree.

I don't think Dunn opens the way he did if he's scum with N_M. Too blatant.

the sort on Dunn doesn't really follow through. i can see this as an 'easy TR thrown to a partner then ignoring them' since Bingle doesn't actually reexamine the read later on. when he switches to Norway!scum there isn't an accompanying movement in thoughts on Dunn (there's a 'still TR Dunn' as an afterthought ages later when Bingle has to go through all the players)

I generally feel like "Norway has low WIM as scum" is likely to be something Hopkirk felt is true regardless of his alignment in this game (or nEE's for that matter), like I don't think he's going to just make up a complete lie about another player's scum meta, especially when naming specific players as references.

however I do not see why he deflected a question about it instead of just saying where he might have seen FL comment on it

, so I can sympathize with Bingle's suspicion there. If this is a premeditated push from scum!Bingle I think it would be hard for him to continue pushing it if Hopkirk had brought receipts, but at the same time I could envision scum pouncing on a townie's careless remarks about meta, so I don't know if it's strictly a town-indicative push especially since odds are not in Bingle's favor.

It's not necessarily the belief that Norwee is low WIM as scum, that I find suspicious. It's the arbitrary attempt to add credibility to the claim. TownHopkirk says "Norwee has low WIM as scum" because he thinks that. Scum Hopkirk says {Laundry List of Players} say Norwee has low WIM as scum because he gains from us believing that.

@GL- this was kind of ewwwww. why did you believe the bolded was more likely than purelyjoking!hop? it's adding legitimacy to what Bingle is saying and reads as supportive of him without outright supporting him

I also think it's rather fun that Hopkirk is accusing me of scumreading him as a chainsaw defense of Luke when A) my scumread of him predates his Luke case and B) I specifically said that the push felt like a distraction from my push on him.

remains wrong/bad. clearly not good faith and do need to bear in mind he was hard pushing me when i'd been on Lukewarm all game/had started harder pushing Luke

And like Marcistar said, apparently Bingle thought it was a 50/50% chance either N_M or me could be scum with Hopkirk, his pet scumread. But now he is 100% sure it’s me and Hopkirk to the extent he will quickhammer someone he townreads just to eliminate us? Thst’s some scummy garbage.
VOTE: Bingle

I agree with this

I'd like to hear what bingle thinks is different about me this game vs last game which would justify him being willing to hammer me here.

I’m townreading all of Dunn/Marci/GL/Luke. People are aggressively ignoring how obvscum norwee and hopkirk are.

If I have to lim you to get norwee/hopkirk, so be it.

Bingle not reacting whatsoever to the push from Vanders (this being the only time he responds to vanders, and there being a grand total of 1 mention in the iso of vanders) doesn't really give an impression of them trying to make Vanders look good on a bingle scum!flip. it's immediately noticeable that bingle barely seems aware vanders exists (and i'm going to go check a couple of scumgames to see if this applies negatively elsewhere) outside of one time he says he could be scum with NM & when saying he'd vote vanders

can you outline town!dunn and town!GL?

Literally did the dunn thing in the last two pages.

GL: I buy into the slip logic from Norwee as probably right, thought GL's reaction to being pushed over that felt town, and don't think Norwee tries to instigate that particular fake slip with a buddy the way he did. 163-172 is just super weird in a Norwee/GL scumteam world.

refuses to justify Dunn more than 'he had some unspecified shade from norway so 0% scum together', so this is a pretty blatant dodge of the undeveloped read on Dunn that he's pushing in line with.
the GL read is lazy

[Hopkirk]

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=85019 - TRs pinkball early on little, low engagement after an early RVS vote. doesn't speak to Pink unless spoken to first
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=83071&user_select[]=33135- Talks about Titus mechanically and gamestate wise but never directly talks to Titus unless Titus has asked a direct question. CL - bare minimum engagement usually when started by something CL said. has a vote briefly on as a random lurker. doesn't shade partners

doesn't feel like he actively starts engagments with a partners a lot?
i was expecting to be able to easily find more. can anyone see other obvious scumgames from bingle/jingle? i'd assumed they'd played as scum a lot more (recently). i assume there's a secret/open alt or few that i'm not aware of lurking around somewhere

the interaction he has with Lukewarm would be a pretty big outlier from what seems to be the standard and would fit with other slots

[Hopkirk]

damn I didn't know there was a book out there on scum!GL meta, though I don't think any of it is wrong haha

I think you gave a decent case for town!Vanders, given that I really can't seem to get any traction with either you or Luke on this read makes me think my perspective is probably biased/tunneled from my unique position of knowing my own alignment while being off wagon, suspecting that scum would be more likely bussing than not in this setup especially given how D1 ended with both NM/nEE pushing Bingle. The point about not tactically giving himself outs I think is the best one and definitely something I have been undervaluing. The weakest aspect of my case/read is that it relies a lot on an assumption that Vanders played most of D1 around a plan to bus Bingle, but I still do feel his ISO really doesn't have any notable towniness to me in it and so the case for town is almost solely because he voted Bingle - even Vander has basically said as much. Since you looked at some of his past games, do you share any of my feeling that he comes across more solve-y in his town games?

I also think Dunn just feels like the easy compromise elimination at any point this game, so I'm both not really worried about scum!Dunn winning here and makes me think he's the easiest miselimination for scum today if town.

p-edit: cause I don't like joking without answering and at the time I thought Bingle's questioning towards where the bit about nEE meta came from was fair. You have to remember I didn't know who was scum/town between you, like that was always going to feel immensely more obvious in your shoes, and so I was trying to weigh how things look given a town!Bingle

- Hectic is amazing, so when i saw he subbed in and started giving reasons to sus you i'd have to be an idiot not to scour through the thread and gather up meta that's going to be better than anything i'd get on a skim
- i haven't actually read your case on vanders. this is part of why i didn't post yesterday and wanted to wait until i could look a little more in depth at it tbh, i looked and thought 'i'd need to read that all very closely to sort either/both of Vanders/GL from it and i'm not up for that atm'. i should be able to get to it shortly unless i get too tired
- i haven't read the other games in all that much depth. from what i've skimmed/have read i've seen towngames with very high WIM (last iterating of DiC notably) compared to something like this (viewtopic.php?f=83&t=85284&user_select[]=20412) which feels lower WIM. don't think i currently have a good enough picture to conclude for definite on it.
btw on the bussing thing, vanders votes Menal (partner) relatively early on in their scumgame then backs off to a TR which definitely reads as different to the double down here, but also vanders is technically going to be aware of that and it's not as bad statwise as i initially assumed. if we assume one of me/Marci is never getting voted then it's still 40-50% that scum wins after a bus. Just need to survive a vote in a pool of 5 then 4 then 3 (comes out at 40% win and Bingle isn't guaranteed to die from that).

[Hopkirk]

have you ever faked a townslip that you can remember GL?

[Hopkirk]

oh lmao you're right, I read that the setup was Mountainous and assumed that meant no NKs for some reason

fully disregard that point then

i think it's unlikely for scum to fake 2 different scumslips (this and no daytalk). i'd expect scum faking a slip to aim to fake 1 rather than 2 (as it become less believeable/easier to read as fake if it is fake if it's more unlikely to be multiple genuine mistakes) and think i live this

i can see the reasoning behind all the early SR/TRs

Vanderscamp's ISO doesn't lend itself well to being allied with N_M imo. Ping me if you disagree.

I disagree with this, I called out in 160 some weird reasoning he's using to scumread both Lukewarm and N_M, and I suspect it may be that scum!Vanderscamp with scum!N_M trying to paint a false associative between town!Lukewarm and his buddy.

p-edit: @nEE I don't really see why he couldn't post that as scum, even if he knew it was true already. It could be a question to make him look uninformed, and it's also entirely possible N_M didn't mention you at all in pregame scum chat.

seems pretty ok

actually, let me rephrase that, it's unlikely he doesn't mention you at all given that they have to group townies together, but he could easily say "put me with Norwee for the lulz" and not mention your history* at all

i remember having a vague negative thought on this but don't remember what

i don't have a problem with Vanders

Is this a townread on Vanders, or an absence of scumminess?

it's kinda nice knowing you can't be S/S, so either you're town and not seeing the causes for suspicion that I'm seeing (slash maybe have reasons I'm missing to TR him?), or you're scum TRing a townie. either way I'd be interested in whether any of his content looks to you unlikely to come from scum as I really don't see anything that's struck me as especially town

feels a little posturing?

I feel like it's pretty likely that if lukewarm joined this game to encourage Marci to step out of the newbie queue (which I have no reason at all to doubt) then he's probably going to be buddying up with her as any combination of alignments.

Was going to say it didn't feel like a S/S interaction from them before I remembered that isn't possible anyway

.

I'm mulling over this comment on reread... I feel it's less likely town would forget who is in which pool and which interactions can or can't be S/S. I've had my fair share of poorly thought out comments/takes this game, but certainly the entire game I've been

constantly

paying attention to interactions cross-pool and keeping in mind potential scum candidates of each pool. I'm skeptical town!Vanders wouldn't really be aware that Marci/Luke can't be scum together 300+ posts into the game.

VOTE: Vanderscamp

i think scum never forgets this, town could rarely, scum could fake it. feels like awkawardly phrasing something he wants to say but idk the motivation for saying it

I have read up but it is late and I'm tired and I need to sleep on things before really diving back into this game, I'll be around tomorrow

my current laying in bed hot takes:

- Lukewarm posted a great point in our hood about how scum!Bingle would have hard defended both marcistar and Lukewarm slots away from potential elimination today and to what gain? If it's something like a Bingle-Dunn or Bingle-Vanderscamp team, that's playing fairly awkwardly as it's strictly increasing chance of autoloss. I was kinda waiting to see if Lukewarm would raise the same points in the thread, but he hasn't?

- Overall I do find Bingle scummiest in the 3p hood in a vacuum but I'm struggling to see winning partner candidates due to the above ^. This is one of the matters I intend to sleep on. If you're in this game and scumreading Bingle but townreading Lukewarm/marcistar I need help seeing why Bingle is playing the way he's playing - who is his partner and how do they win after we eliminate a town!Hopkirk?

- Vander's reply to me is alright, I guess. I feel a bit more town vibes from him now that he's actually playing, I still disagree with a few of points, should probably cede a few others

- I thiiiiink I agree Bingle/Hopkirk really doesn't feel TvT, eliminating either way there is likely a good call for D1. I do intend to sleep on this and look at all the Bingle/Hopkirk posts in closer detail so no flashwagons tonight plz

the 'lying in bed thinking on the game' is town indicative from the forced WIM as scum meta point
the vanders read doesn't seem like GL is forcing it? not as of this point, haven't read later

vanders scum can make sense assuming they were very much hoping the hop!exile to go through. i still have some doubts based on what vanders was saying about how he would consider a vote on me (while pushing Bingle) because an exile on me would have put scum in a good spot, but it would be hard for vanders to vote on me there

[Hopkirk]

I'm going to finish tomorrow (might stretch to Weds) because i am starting to find myself skipping and skimming stuff

Currently i'm between (Dunn or Vanders) i think?

[Hopkirk]

i'll pur Marci on the iso list for tomorrow when i should be able to finish what i started without pesky interruptions

[Hopkirk]

so uh, i said i'd do stuff today but then i kind of played a few marathon games instead because it's pretty rare. fortunately i have no plans tomorrow so i will read all of the stuff i said i would

i didn't fully get the Marcy case from what i skimmed to date (not the isos, just recent posts since i last posted properly)

[Hopkirk]

i did a reread of the Marc iso

242 – ‘I don’t mind being sussed’ changing into 898 - 'i just dont have motivation when im sused because its not fun' is weird
trying to talk Luke out of pushing me with Bingle + voting on Bingle still feels like a good sign
is there wishy washiness? i don't fully understand these concerns

[Hopkirk]

I think marci's pivot from "my elimination will be good for the game" to arguing with me about voting her is survivalist

Hopkirk I'm mostly operating from the perspective of "marci being scum could totally make sense and would explain why scum!Vander/scum!Dunn worlds don't feel right to me". Her D2 play has been really passive instead of solvey and her associatives with Bingle are entirely in the range of S-S. Also, I'm kinda going by consensus reads of the town as I know N_M and at least 2 of Dunn/Luke/Vander

must

be townies genuinely scumreading marci, if scum engineered a marci miselimination I'm not seeing where

is this less solvey than her other games (Which i haven't read)? - Luke, what are you thoughts here since you've played together a few times right?
given most/all of her other games are in the newbie queue i'm cautious to assume that not being solving is definitely scum indicative

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: marci

I still stand by day 1 Marci feeling real different from Day 1 Marci in the other game, but

this does feel a bit like Marci after she lost her partner

...

I really don't like that every single town and every single scum read she has wavered on.

And she does not appear to be solving. It kind of feels like she was not putting in the effort today because she wanted to slide through on all of the town reads she got day 1.

oh Luke mentioned difference and that's why they're voting Marci
@Luke- can you talk me why you're thinking the bolded bit given scum!Marci would have been very likely expecting Bingle to die there since she pushed back against the wagon on me and voted Bingle?

[Hopkirk]

the d3 sounds similar. did anyone else SRing Marci read that game?

[Hopkirk]

Robert said they TR bugs several times but did nothing to argue against the wagon is a negative point
they don't interact with or mention Flow whatsoever (pretty common for new scum to just ignore partners)
Robert says he has a SR but doesn't try and push anyone or vote even while a TR is being voted off (allegedly a stronger TR?)
the vote on Mo feels omgusey in retrospect

^ reading through the Robert iso with the knowledge it's scum that's what sticks out as sus

[Hopkirk]

wrong thread

[Hopkirk]

I've tried to kill motivation? Bullshit.

[Hopkirk]

Vanders>Dunn is my pick right now I think

[Hopkirk]

I'm not happy with a hammer right now because Dunn still hasn't posted Luke. Y'know, one of the two people I'm considering. I don't have enough to sort Dunn yet

[Hopkirk]

Killing motivation as a strategy doesn't make sense and is somewhat insulting. You can get a hammer without me, and scum want quick votes without a chance to rethink.

Being universally townread means I need to get my thoughts out/my full rereads before I die, because I'm likely to die.

Are you sure you understand why people are TRing me? It feels like you went along with it but don't.

Marci doesn't feel right.

[Hopkirk]

Vanders-dunn/luke-marci-GL is my order currently without having fully reread Luke and without being happy with Dunn's contributions

[Hopkirk]

Dunn's current posting is what scum who's accepted the loss but doesn't want to outright concede would be making. What do you think of Dunn's D2 Luke?

[Hopkirk]

I got back to everyone yesterday.
I was doing a lot of stuff earlier in the day, want to dispute that?
Me posting elsewhere isn't suspicious at all if you paid any attention to context, and we can't discuss that without discussing ongoing games.

[Hopkirk]

D1 was him trying to exile me. If you thought it was convincing enough that you and your TR Dunn went along with it then don't try arguing it wasn't likely to go through.

[Hopkirk]

If it's Dunn then of course Bingle wasn't trying to make Dunn look good on a bingle scumflip. Dunn!scum was pushing me with bingle and they aren't intending a bingle flip. Not looking good in response to a scum partner flipping scum while they were pushing against the flip... I can see why that could be scum pretty clearly

[Hopkirk]

D1 was him trying to exile me. If you thought it was convincing enough that you and your TR Dunn went along with it then don't try arguing it wasn't likely to go through.

Is this a slip? Because I am pretty sure that you spent 90% of this game saying that his push on you was a shit push, but now it was supposedly good enough to go through?

It was a shit push. You bought it though. If Dunn is town then he did too. A shit push doesn't mean a push that will never actually work with the scumteam hard pushing it, it means a push that's founded on shitty reasons

I know I fell for it because I was being White Knighted, but honestly, the point isn't if I thought it was going to go thought anyways. The point is, did Bingle think it was going to go through. And based on your reaction, I don't think that he or you thought it would

Spoiler: Hopkirk making it clear he did not think it was a convincing push

trying to draw my attention away from looking for scum with a shitpush?

i'm not giving Bingle the benefit of the doubt here because from what i've heard about him he

should

be too good to tunnel on something as stupid...i don't really buy him being this bad?

Current takes from me and my alts

Sarah- so like... scum don't shitpush this hard in practice so you're wrong on Bingle!scum

i'm probably overthinking things and the openwolf is just a wolf

And in the neighborhood "the fact that everything bingle said about me was stupid is what should have made you reconsider before Marci pointed it out to you"

[Hopkirk]

Bingle clearly wanted me exiled. It almost worked too.

[Hopkirk]

Dunn/Vanders>Luke/Marci>GL actually

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Dunn

[Hopkirk]

btw my 60 posts lastnight were a scumgame that just finished lol

yeah I SR you a bit then i read your games because of that and SR more after. it's very logical

[Hopkirk]

nah, i asked if

you

thought you were playing differently. i've asked that a bunch of times in the past, there it was with intent to bear in mind your response

[Hopkirk]

so this means you're saying we need to vote

you

off before lylo? lol

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Dunn

still between this/vanders.

[Hopkirk]

i think Luke is playing too dumb to be scum at this point

VOTE: Vanders

[Hopkirk]

@Vanders - can you towncase luke since i think you had him as your 2nd strongest TR

[Hopkirk]

probably not. i ignored 90% of what you posted about me yesterday.
that would be me phrasing the question in an intentionally aggressive way. still asking the same question, but you can't respond 'no' without elaborating which makes it more useful than just asking 'are you playing differently'

[Hopkirk]

UNVOTE: Vanders

[Hopkirk]

Marci's last few posts pinged me a bit (plus the TR on Dunn that GL quoted, it's kind of weird to be both confused that you're townreading too many people + townreading neutralish Dunn who I'd expect to be in the POE there). i should probably have another looked through her posts

either way i think (Marci/Vanders) contains the last scum and betting the game on GL/Luke town seems reasonable

[Hopkirk]

i'm sleeping now, can anyone case Marci as town or scum overnight to add to my thoughts?

[Hopkirk]

i feel like i can see a good reason not for it to be everyone except Marci here

-GL- The made multiple townslips + hasn't faked townslips is pretty strong. Bingle's self vote makes less sense with GL than with Marci/Vanders.
-Vanders- best d1 voting + push on Bingle was early enough that i think it does conflict with the meta stuff. Especially since his frustration recently about being out of his scum range seems genuine.
-Luke- genuine emotional pings in a number of places, including around Bingle's death. Trying to start a 1v1 with me is super weird and town indicative. Feels hard pocketed by Bingle d1/I don't get the kind of stuff I'd expect Bingle to say to coach a newish partner in their posting.

Marci was pretty widely TR d1 and I can see Bingle thinking she can carry it from there + she's the only partner who couldn't consider switching to voting me. I can absolutely see a plan where Marci/Bingle d1 plan to compromise pivot onto Vanders towards the end of day, followed by continued pushing of me vs Bingle the next day. Marci being the good cop on the hop wagon opposed to Bingle's bad cop push of it is also positioning that makes sense compared to a partner just sitting back. I can see Marci/Bingle having Marci against the Hop push so that if Bingle forces it through d1 then a Bingle flip the next day wouldn't implicate her. I can see Bingle realizing I was going to vote him + Notmafia/Norway/Vanders were and being worried that someone else could switch before Marci did and wanted to cover the base with the hammer. TR then flying under the radar d2 makes sense as well post flip especially with a GL vs Vanders 1v1.

I'm struggling to see Bingle's plan otherwise, especially one that he'd be willing to self vote for there, and I'm struggling to see anything that jumps out as a reason not to vote Marci like i do for a lot of people

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Marci

[Hopkirk]

obviously i excluded a bunch of reasons for the TRs there, just pointing out the kind of 'smoking gun' reasons to TR that could be a TR alone that i don't have for Marci

[Hopkirk]

Ha, now who's 'stalling wagons', 'extending the game', and 'being a disappointment to their parents' like Luke said I was last day

I'm struggling to see why you're hard TRing any of the stuff you quoted from Marci + asked me about Luke?

[Hopkirk]

GL is probably my top pick assuming town!Marci + deadhop

[Hopkirk]

i don't like the posturing around the Marci kill and it feels weird when i can see a 'setting up endgame' play going
associatives with Bingle are worse than Vanders/Luke + wasn't pushing/voting Bingle and sounded like he could go along with him
more POE really

[Hopkirk]

weakest reason for it to not be him outside Marci

[Hopkirk]

I'm going to reread on Friday/Saturday at some point

[Hopkirk]

Why i didn't like your end of day yesterday GL:

are you sure you're not scum marci? I really don't know who it is if it's not you

I wish I was scum frankly lol this would be a great performance if I was, as opposed to the terrible towngame this is turning into

the saving grace would be if my pet Vander scumread was right all along I guess but I'm not even confident in it anymore?

vander can you just kill me if you're scum

lol Luke if you get killed the F3 is gonna be a nightmare, please don't put that on us

Or was it because Bingle made the "I will hammer Vanders if we speed elim hopkirk tomorrow" post?

No, it was because of those three players voting Bingle.

You're kinda going off the deep end here man. You think Bingle's plan was to push Hopkirk really hard, then gamble that he could make an open-wolfy enough post to draw all the votes to himself instead, even though many of the players were suggesting never to eliminate in 3p on D1? Really?

Stop inventing narratives for why something is possible and just stick to what's likely. Bingle-Hopkirk is S-S in far far FAR fewer universes than ones where almost anyone else in the 6p field is scum.

I didn't get the progression of

- Vanders is your top scumread for a while followed by doubt for a while that's accompanied with 'but maybe it is just Vanders'
and
- Hopkirk is least likely scum
into 'I really don't know who it is if it isn't you' in 1120.

combined with a few other posts you made saying things like
- rethink hop if final 3
- the final 3 would be a nightmare
etc
the subtle shade you're throwing at me there rubs me the wrong way and feels like you're preparing more for a final 3 than Vanders (Luke remaining a townread i didn't intend to rethink)

2- the other part is that these end of day posts felt a little performative/over the top- going out of your way to say several times that you'd have no idea the next day, asking to be killed when the kill is always going to be me or Luke, the stuff about you having had a terrible towngame etc, all felt kind of weird and this links to the other thoughts in 1/3 where it feels like you're complaining a bit too much about how hard the final 3 will be for you

3-
1120- you have no idea
1124- 'Vanders if you're scum can you kill me' seems to be you saying Vanders scum is a lot more likely
1126- you have no idea again

this specifically is a really weird progression to have. it feels like you're overstating the confusion since you also seem to have a clear most likely scum at this stage and it gave me kind of an impression you were laying out for the endgame with those posts

[Hopkirk]

to clarify, that's just specifically what i actively disliked about your end of day posting

[Hopkirk]

i unvoted vanders yesterday because i couldn't get over the concerns that his Bingle vote didn't make sense from scum!Vanders.
i want to look back on your progression on me/Bingle and specifically where and when things happened.

Thinking a bit more right now, I do think I have mostly good reasons to vote Vanders and not as good reasons to vote Hopkirk. I still think Bingle's play with Hopkirk is really unlikely to be theater and props to both of them if it was. I still think a lot of the small bits and pings in Vander's ISO that I've called out or focused on throughout the game together hint at a scum mindset. And I do think it's likely that Bingle's threats to hammer Vander and then self-vote instead were actions to protect Vander as they ensured that he wasn't eliminated on D1.

I don't have a lot of especially great reasons to townread Vander other than he vaguely sounds pretty town when he's playing (outside of the aforementioned pings/yellow flags), and that he did vote and get Bingle eliminated on D1. For most of D2 and D3 I also felt that his repeated claims that his bussing/voting Bingle should be town-clearing were more likely genuine than not. However, these reasons don't feel quite as strong to me when I weigh them against the fact that Vanders is clearly a very experienced mafia player (as I pointed out earlier he's claimed to play over 500+ games of mafia!) - which means none of these town tells are outside the range of a capable scum player who went into this game with a plan to distance from/bus their buddy, in a setup that incentivizes it, and milk as much towncred as possible from doing so.

It's also just hard for me to walk away from pride/vanity that I've had this read since D1 and haven't gotten to see Vanders flipped, frankly

The main reason I want to think/talk things through and get a sense of both of your mindsets right now is

out of respect to Lukewarm's Hopkirk read

and out of general care for F3 and needing to be open to re-evaluating. But gun to my head I vote Vanders here, so maybe Vanders if you're town we start with why Bingle/Hopkirk is S-S theater and not scum pushing town.

disliked

now that I've posted all that, cue the nerves about a hypothetical scum!Hopkirk entering thread and turbovoting me and making me look like a complete idiot as I have to reckon with being wrong about Vander and immediately backtracking everything I posted lol

another worry that didn't feel like a genuine worry because it doesn't make sense why you'd be concerned about this? if anything, town!GL should presumably feel better if this happens because going from notsure-> oh confirmed this one is great if you are legitimately confused. why would scum!hop ever immediately vote you when you're strongly leaning towards voting the other person?

[Hopkirk]

to the above
1- I did push back and forth and back and forth yeah. My issue is that I can see why you'd have a strong incentive to bring us both to lylo/vote out the other players first so I can't point to you reconsidering Vanders as townie when it can be indicative of scum setting up for later/makes sense from either alignment. I definitely need to reread where you were reconsidering based on our reads though, one of the things i had flagged to look at.

2- I can see reasons for both of you to be town, but no, I don't think the game is unsolvable or especially terrible right now. Lylos are fun as town imo

3- The scum agenda for trying to look town is that town do look town, so scum want to look town. Saying it feels too overstated (and mostly, weird in light of your read on me there) is the bit that feels like it can easily come from scum. The benefit of trying to keep all options available in lylo doesn't need explaining.

4- Appealing to one person as scum gives the impression you think they're more likely scum. Remember this point isn't isolated, it's directly linked to the rest of what i was concerned about where it felt like your read on me was going artificially down at that point to prep an endgame/it didn't feel like your confusion made sense in context of your prior reads.

I did have those concerns, I was going back and forth on it for a while, quite visibly i do believe.

btw since everyone else is doing self meta i'm 100% clear because i hate playing scum so much that every scum pm i get makes me reconsider whether i want to stay on the site

i don't enjoy playing as scum and any every minute of playing as scum feels like a pointless unenjoyable waste of time outside of rare cases like team mafia where i had to actually put effort in to avoid disappointing Hectic and Flopz. this is fairly common knowledge. there's 0 chance i'd ever agree to a strategy that involved me being put in the position of having to carry the game to endgame as scum since i'd care a lot more about not causing myself the irritation of having to play a scumgame for multiple weeks than i would about winning a no stakes game. see the concurrent game where i was scum (vanders was town) and i did as little as possible until endgame (where i think the mental anguish and why i'd never willingly put myself in that situation comes through pretty nicely). in the scenario where Bingle/Hop were scum going for a toxic 1scumv1scum then i'd never have agreed to be the one who had to stay in the game for a month afterwards.

(the exception is short form games and in real life games, in both of which scum is actually fun to play. mafiascum specifically with long deadlines and replace out culture makes it horrible)

[Hopkirk]

another worry that didn't feel like a genuine worry because it doesn't make sense why you'd be concerned about this? if anything, town!GL should presumably feel better if this happens because going from notsure-> oh confirmed this one is great if you are legitimately confused. why would scum!hop ever immediately vote you when you're strongly leaning towards voting the other person?

you can't imagine why I'd be worried about you being scum and making me look bad by suggesting I'm scum immediately after I just cased and suggested that the other townie in F3 (in this scenario) was scum?

i don't understand no, can you explain why scum!hop would ever do?

[Hopkirk]

rereading will probably come Friday evening

[Hopkirk]

Friday evening reread is going to have to turn into Saturday morning reread

[Hopkirk]

Ok me schedule is stupid right now. I'm going to have to think what to skip to make time for this. Done skimming but not enough time for rereading or considering validating meta

[Hopkirk]

Done some* skimming

[Hopkirk]

I'm very busy at the moment
I'm struggling to see your progression on Vanders as town from skimming. For example you say earlier you are never voting Marci/hop then voted Marci and are 30% on me over Vanders. I felt the switch away because other people are TRing Vanders was awkward. I need to verify whether town or scum you is more likely to leave a SR alive for later like that, but the benefits scum you gets from that are very clear.

D1 I'm also having issues with you not having problems with what Bingle said about me and looking like you could agree with it/might have been planning to vote me

Have you done any meta on Vanders?

I might skip my event tonight to make time, but I'm free Wednesday evening for at least 2-3 hours so that'll depend if work/study is draining today

[Hopkirk]

whoa i'm actually starting to read up

Bingle iso
112- scumpings from GL
178 – asks GL what he thought about game balance when he thought it was nightless-
254 – not sure what Bingle TR GL based on here?

208 – slight pushback on norway’s light sus of Vanders -

219 – says Norway might be aligned with Vanders - @GL i think you mentioned that bingle would be doing this with the aim of elimming Norway first then TRing Vanders off of that with the 'oh that pairing was wrong so the other one is probably town logic'. i'm not sure how that makes sense in light of Bingle consistently pushing within the bigger pool first. he wasn't noticeably aiming for norway (or in the small pool at all) here which kind of means his strat here needs to be exile Hop > exile norway > TR vanders based on that which seems like too many stages

Bingle ignoring Vanders vote probably isn’t significant since Bingle also ignores the Dunn vote and some others

Binlge is gunning for the Hopkirk exile. He’s got Dunn/Luke so needs one more + a partner, or two more town. Given Norway/NM on him essentially needs Marci which makes his self hammer make sense when she votes him and that’s no long possible.

-In the scum Vanders world Bingle needs to buy Marci & GL's votes OR let Vanders draw sus by switching to me. There's a couple of posts appealing to Marci here but none that i noticed trying to buy GL's vote in any way. i don't think scum!Bingle is going to lie down to die even if being bussed because if he can get those votes then he gets a hop elim while spreading negative associatives with his partner. Abandoning things on the marci decision also rules out Vanders/GL both voting on Hop which is possible in the scum!vanders world. Bingle doesn't wait for this - so either decided that puts Vanders in too bad a light, or we aren't in that world
-The scum GL world is one where GL hangs around waiting to see votes without majorly taking a stance beforehand which i don't really see anything on the d1 voting against this? There's the GL vote on Luke putting him to 3 drawing a little attention away from Bingle early on as the only thing that really resembles a counterwagon

[Hopkirk]

between 112-254 do you know what Bingle switched on you based on GL? all i can see is that Norway TR you for reasons then Bingle flipped to TRing you for the rest of the game with no clear indication (i don't remember you asking Bingle about his progression on you, but i'll verify that in the iso i'm about to do of you next)

[Hopkirk]

Hood specific
18 in hood at 7.04 on May 11 – GL thinks Bingle is most scummy in the trio
19/21 in hood – claiming not to be aware of mafia daytalk. TRs Luke a lot here
25 – GL mentions that they think bussing is generally bad
It’s kind of weird that GL wasn’t posting during the night phase/last night phase in the hood? I kind of feel like you’d have been doing that if you had any concern about dying? Especially last night I’d have thought you’d probably take the opportunity to lay out your points on Vanders in case you died since I don’t think either me or Luke had 100% engaged with all of them.
Note – need to read what GL says later about Bingle voting as a deflection from Vanders because I didn’t fully get that on a reread despite thinking it was true earlier in the game

Ignoring the hood from Vanders probably NAI

[Hopkirk]

i should note i only very quickly skimmed your last posts and didn't read them yet. had a look now at the one you mentioned

between 112-254 do you know what Bingle switched on you based on GL? all i can see is that Norway TR you for reasons then Bingle flipped to TRing you for the rest of the game with no clear indication (i don't remember you asking Bingle about his progression on you, but i'll verify that in the iso i'm about to do of you next)

It was the response to his questioning about my townslip

You haven’t really townhunted in the big pool Bingle.

Do you have any reads yet or what?

Disagree. We've talked about Dunn, I'm waiting for a response from Hopkirk, and

I agree with your logic on GL given his response

. Luke and Scamp both strike me as the kind where their alignment will be more obvious if I let them do their thing and I can afford to be a passive observer on marci at the moment.

Sometimes, it's better to know how to let the thread breathe to get reads.

You should read my post directly above yours where I also walk through this interaction

also, on this:

-The scum GL world is one where GL hangs around waiting to see votes without majorly taking a stance beforehand which i don't really see anything on the d1 voting against this?

again, if I were scum with Bingle I basically took the worst possible course of action for myself, did not bus him strongly to buy myself towncred and distance our slots, nor did I push for a counter wagon to prevent his elimination from going through. I was on the sideline without pushing any kind of agenda at all - that's passive play and something I'd like to think I would have avoided as scum.

I think you make some good points about how scum!Vander switching from Bingle to Hopkirk would look tremendously bad after you flip green and Bingle flips red.

am i misunderstanding one of the following two things
-you were arguing that Bingle didn't use the townslip as a reason to TR you?
-bingle TR you then didn't ever reconsider it based on that townslip

the townslip i find more meaningful would be the daytalk one. i'm thinking about whether those two slips are plausible to happen accidentally. eg you knowing there was daytalk then taking advantage of Dunn asking to say you didn't

in regard to you not bussing...
why is not bussing a bad move there for scum!GL? there were 3 votes on me and 3 on Bingle before Marci's vote. it's very plausible that i do get voted off there if one more vote lands on me (you having the chance to hammer there as scum is great for your team) and most of the game was TRing you pretty strongly so not bussing doesn't seem like a bad play UNLESS Bingle is guaranteed to get voted off there because he was so scummy - the bit i don't understand here is if he was scummy enough that scum!you would have had to bus for scumcred (taking into account you mentioning you'd prefer to avoid bussing in the hood earlier) then why were you still really on the fence about him prior to that? it felt like you were strongly considering the vote on me that scum!GL would definitely do, and i'm not aware you SR Bingle substantially there

your scum agenda there would have been to
- get the hopkirk wagon to go through (without hard pushing it)
- not push the Bingle wagon to L1/have plausible deniability while maintaining towncred
bussing bingle would be bad for scum you there because it eliminates the desirable and possible outcome of me being exiled
voting me would be bad for scum you as it ties you strongly to Bingle while not necesarily leading to me being exiled
waiting on the sidelines means that you can wait and see whether the hop wagon is possible then to vote it if it gets another vote (good outcome for scum you) or if it looks like Bingle is getting elimmed/hop isn't, to just sit on the sidelines and avoid getting any sus (when you were TR by everyone so didn't massively need towncred)

why would you have avoided this as scum?
do you think you'd have bussed Bingle as sucm? if so then at what point specifically would you have done so?

[Hopkirk]

Ignoring the hood from Vanders probably NAI

I also just hate this, I really do, I don't see how anyone can buy that.

I asked Vanders why he wasn't posting in the hood after the first night phase and he said he wasn't even

reading

there.

do you really think it's good town play to just completely ignore a neighborhood? I can kinda understand an argument for not posting in there when you're exclusively posting in the main thread, but not even READING it? That's discarding information that might help you find scum for no gain whatsoever. I think it's more likely that ignoring the hood is just a convenient excuse to avoid being forced to provide more content or engaging with players over night.

i'd agree that not reading it is a questionable decision. when i say it's NAI i'm saying it because this is all he posted in the last game's hood as town
-viewtopic.php?f=90&t=86294&user_select[]=20412

which means it can/has come from town!vanders in the past so NAI

[Hopkirk]

262/3 – by this point Vanders is Tring Norway hard and has flipped on Bingle being more sus that NM and doesn’t flip back. There’s basically no pushback from Bingle to Vanders’ reasons for SRing him here. Do you think there’d be more or less scumtheater attempted from vanders/bingle here if they’re committing to a bus? One of the things that makes me view the interactions in a good light for vanders is that the whole set of interactions are understated.

Like scum!vanders means I need to accept that Vanders is willing to break a non-bussing meta that early, commit to it throughout multiple counterwagons that he could reasonably join, and despite that have so few anti-associatives that he got so little towncred out of it that he was considered as an exile multiple times even the next day. He commits to it before he’s a wagon, so there’s not a noticeable threat that he’s going to be exiled over bingle. sure, if he basically never busses then it could be just that he wasn’t good at it… but it feels like there should be more anti-associatives if they were a scum pair trying to hard bus d1. As it is there’s some, but the biggest one is the vanders meta. In terms of interactions (from Bingle’s end) they don’t really have anything that I can point to that makes them look super unaligned and I feel like there should be some of that coming from Bingle if he wanted to play it out as theatre to help Vanders coast to endgame

[Hopkirk]

I got nothing at all out of the bingle/hopkirk exchange

ties in to what i was saying above. if trying to create fake conflict with bingle then not using this at all is weird

I'm happy to keep spamming the thread about killing into the small pool not being a non-viable option, I like talking about this stuff, but given there were three votes on bingle for a while it didn't seem like the entire thread was actively averse to it.

oh yeah, Jingle's alleged convinction is incredibly out of line with what's reasonable. i'm not super confident on Luke because this can easily be Scum!Bingle throwing shade at me/norway with the intent of letting a Luke wagon go through today then plan to shade me/norway from it. Scum!Bingle doesn't need to care about openwolfing when he's not at a realistic risk of us voting him on account of the setup/stated desires to vote in the 6p pool

I'll hammer Scamp if he hits E-1 on the premise we turbolim Hop then Norwee after.

Would you agree to a vote on you given the same premise?

we all know we're voting in the 6p pool so this question is pointless

Ok, let's talk then about why we all know we're voting into the 6p pool.

Why is that?
Because the math that bingle and I worked out last game on which pool gives us better odds, assuming random killing, gives voting into the small pool first a pretty non-negligible 10% (as a ratio) winrate increase of killing into the big pool first.
No one is arguing with that math.
To make up for that, there has to be a good reason to vote into the big pool first, but i think a lot of the reasons given both this game and last game are things that don't change whether you actually vote into the big pool first or not.
The only one I remember recently was the thing someone said that was obviously wrong about our odds of winning being smaller with a scum flip in the small pool vs a miskill in the big pool.
Additionally I think there is some real value in guaranteeing a scum flip before losing, which killing into the small pool first guarantees but the big pool first does not.

these posts did influence me away from being locked into voting in the big pool, although is that actually meaningful?

I'm not reading the neighbourhood chat, sorry.

shouldn't you be concerned about what scum might be posting in there?

No?...

I didn't read the other chat last game at all either.

i think you responded to this GL? need to check how much it came up

you can't just townread people when it's convenient to townread them but then say you're not looking at the other players by POE. If they're town they're town and you should be willing to put your foot in the ground there.

I would say I'm literally never voting Hopkirk or marcistar this game at this point, doesn't feel like you'd commit to the same?

I'm not saying I'm not looking at other players by PoE, I'm saying it's not impossible that people outside the PoE are scum.

And no, I won't commit to that.
Particularly Marci who I still think does not read as towny in any way, the only reason I am townreading her is the meta of the pool stuff which I do believe is probably accurate.
I'd be very surprised if I vote hopkirk this game but he is not lock clear either.

i kind of hate what GL is saying here. attacking Vanders for not committing to that taken in the context of subsequently voting Marci and having what was it 30% odds of me being scum makes it feel like a gotcha trap and vanders' response is reasonable

I think it's extremely likely I die here given who's currently voting me, if I do die I'd kill Marci in final three but I don't feel super confident on that.

Please make everyone who kills me here actually justify their reason for voting me, I still think I should be pretty obviously town given how hard I pushed on bingle D1. I think there's no chance he would have actually died without me both pushing on him as scummy and pushing back on the notion of killing into the small pool being a bad idea.
GL said something earlier about me being in a bad spot when I was pushing bingle but I was pushing both of these things before I got any votes D1. It's imo not good enough to vote me here as a sheep, we have two kills and I don't think I should be one of them.
I know I'm alienating the two people who are not currently voting me by saying this but I don't think my bingle push is worth less than anything Marci or GL have done this game.

It's just pretty annoying for me that I'm out of my scum range but no one else here actually knows that and somehow everyone is happy including me in their two kills.

Sorry if this feels like I'm beating a dead horse, but what would you say is outside of your scum range this game?

My push on bingle.
No one here has played with me much so it's fair for you to discount that, but it's true and I can link quotes from other people that can confirm that what I'm saying is true.

I generally don't like to bus as scum so for me to do it there has to be a pretty good reason, more than just for the cred.
I'm 100% sure that the bingle kill would not have happened without what I did, and I was pushing him before he had a lot of traction.

i liked both of these posts

[Hopkirk]

@Vanders - can you give an example of any times where you have bussed early? i'm interested in seeing the stuff you offered where people are commenting about a long history of not bussing as well

i'm not going to be able to get through meta reading from other games tonight, that's likely/is going to be a Friday evening thing

vanders hit L1 i think twice in the last couple of games so i don't agree you were the only one pushing him, you also said just now that i was pushing him more than you during a bunch of that time

frankly Hopkirk I'm really disappointed you don't see me as town here in comparison. It's a large part of why I still think you might be scum. It's also bullshit you tried to suggest it could be scummy I didn't post in the hood over the last night phase when Lukewarm didn't either and flipped town

I wanted this LYLO to be me deciding between you two (probably unreasonable, I know , but it's what would have been my preferred outcome) and instead it feels like I am primarily defending myself against both of your slots whenever either of you pop in, and neither of you are even really trying to pressure the other.

I also just don't get how you progress on me Hopkirk. It's like you think I'm more suspicious because I gave up on Vander and went along with everyone else's desired eliminations, when you were more strongly scumreading him than me on D2/D3. Like it feels like you pivot to scumreading me whenever I try to either get you to see scum!Vander or to see me as clearly town, and I don't really know what would have been better or more productive for me to do here, like you are just motivated to continue to keep scumreading me despite any tactic I try to help you solve correctly - assuming you are town

the two biggest reasons that i started
- Vanders' Bingle vote- this is the reason i unvoted vanders several times
- At the end of yesterday (then today) you were considering me in a way that felt out of line with what i'd expect. it feels so weird you'd be saying you 100% commit to never voting me & spend days pushing vanders then still act like you're deciding both end of day yesterday then for ages today. i'd have expected town!you to vote vanders out of the gate, but you highlighted prenight that you were no longer sure in a way that felt weird

the lack of you saying stuff overnight is different to Luke because he ended yesterday by explicitly saying he didn't want to give reads if he died.

also something i'll clarify with a couple of quotes on the topic of overnight posting in one sec

[Hopkirk]

ok before i make those two quotes...
@GL - in terms of your self meta
- is there any reason why you do/would effort less as scum?
- do you agree with norway's assessment of your scumgame being weak/obvious/low effort despite him bringing this up against town you recently as a reason to SR you?
- are there any recent games you've got where you've approached this level of effort as town (since you mentioned you hadn't as scum)
- did you say that you wouldn't/don't meta read as scum? is that a thing you've never done, or just a rare thing?

[Hopkirk]

Votecount 4.0

Not voting (3) - Vanderscamp, Hopkirk, GuiltyLion

(expired on 2021-06-22 12:55:00) remain until day end

With 3 players alive, it takes 2 to reach a majority.

Welp it's officially time to tryhard

Hopkirk - in twilight you suggested that you thought I was the most likely scum remaining if not marci. This is a difference from most of D2/D3 where you either mentioned being open to the idea of Vander being scum, or literally voting him (967, 985, 1031).

What in my twilight posts changed your mind so significantly, or what in Vander's D3 play changed your mind?

I will freely admit that I've been scared of being eliminated in F3 today, and I could see how that would reflect in 'positioning' in my posting, but that's because I'm town and me being eliminated today would be a loss for myself and my team. I have also constantly been worried about being a game losing mis-elimination, reflected even in my post 119 between D2 and D3 in the hood. Quoted for context:

I'm still confident we win if marci/vanders are the other two elims (I still think it's stupid that Vanderscamp claims he doesn't need to read here and that excuses him from offering any content over the night phase or participating in this subset of dialogue with the rest of us), but idk if y'all can trust me enough and frankly I am having a real hard time feeling good about a definitive call either way with those two.

I'm not seeing what made you suddenly think I was more likely scum than Vanders, and I'm worried that may have been an agenda post more than a genuine thought process on your end.

something that i was thinking at the start of the day that i probably should have mentioned when i was saying the issue with you not posting overnight is that the timestamps here spooked me

like it wasn't that you didn't post overnight so much as that you didn't post overnight but did make a reasonably long post (followed by a longer series of posts) within 11 minutes of the nightkill. the questions you asked here are things that could have been asked overnight and especially if you're concerned i'm going to die overnight
+ if you are town then and you don't like being SR then i think it's reasonable to assume town you would have wanted to address me sussing you there more immediately rather than doing it at the start of the next day? Like if you do have an emotional reaction to it then it fells a bit weird you waited a while to push back on it? does my phrasing make sense there?

i also was a little spooked out by the sense of direction i got from your posts immediately at the start of the day which felt like you knew where you were going without thinking it over that much at the start of the day. it always takes me a little while to get into lylo, and there it seemed immediate/no break to reread since i think everything you were writing there felt like it was stuff you were already thinking which i found weird/possibly scum indicative

[Hopkirk]

timestamps don't show up in quotes do they

assuming it took you a couple of minutes to see the start of day post, in the 11 minutes after knowing the kill you wrote ~200 words, found and linked in four quotes (counting the hyperlinks), and asked a question that you could have asked overnight. it feels weird that you waited until start of day to ask it, but were presumably refreshing/getting ready for the start of day.

was the bit addressing me at the start prewritten (with links)?

[Hopkirk]

i saw what you mentioned about the last game not having a night phase, and went to check and vanders did post a little in his 2p hood in the game i just played with him as town. vanders, have you got any backup for your 'not reading hoods'

[Hopkirk]

-townslips (daytalk being more significant than setup because that's not a slip that only town would make)
-norway hard TRing you - why was this?
-selfmeta regarding effort (not efforting enough to meta as scum)
-you don't twilight post as scum (never?)

if we ignore all of the content in this game thread, are these are the reasons that have come up for this as out of your scumrange?

[Hopkirk]

i'm going to have to sleep now. schedule over the rest of the day phase:

tomorrow work/stuff means i'm not free
friday- free and i'll be doing the meta unless something kills my vibes. nothing anticipated that should be draining before then though so should be able to guarantee at least 2-3 hours on the game. mostly to be spent on meta + some more review of GL's iso then verifying stuff people have claimed
saturday i have dnd during the day for ~4-5h hours. evening should be comparatively clear but can't guarantee availability
sunday i'm playing pathfinder 2 with Flopz/some others in the morning & my parents are visiting in the afternoon/evening so i don't anticipate being able to post
monday i'm on leave so if i haven't put a vote down by the end of saturday i'll put some more hours in here then vote by the end of monday at the latest

[Hopkirk]

posting to confirm myself as town

[Hopkirk]

Intending to be on for about three hours stating in half an hour

[Hopkirk]

having read the isos in vanders' last 5ish games this resembles the town ones more than the scum one on average, but i could do with more data on the scumgame

[Hopkirk]

some GL scum!QT thought processes and some of my thoughts on them not separated

generally I don't like to bus - people will WIFOM their way out of a lot of associatives as long as you are actually engaging with your partner to some degree - and my goal is to make sure all my pushes sound reasonable/genuine. It works pretty well in newbie games cause newbies often fall for the logical = townie fallacy and there are usually enough lurksacks / people-playing-weird to burn through the first couple mislynches. but lemme know what your experience is, what you feel comfortable with, etc
Which brings me to another point - one other key point of playing scum IMO is to effectively mask your associatives. I think either hard bussing or hard town blocking is optimal - the key is to take a strong and believable stance on your partner instead of living in a wishy washy zone where you "scumread" them but don't push them, or don't comment on them at all.
Slight minus associative with bingle if this is true when reading scumgames

Considers Dunn potentially scary if he is playing seriously but also likely to lurk which would make him an easy mislethal

- as a result, the best scum tells in my experience are when you find posts or thought processes that are fundamentally hard or impossible to imagine coming from town. These posts are rare and mafia spend the entire game trying to hide/avoid posting them, so you don't find them often, but that's the gold standard.
Matches comment from this game/makes a lot of sense from town GL
I'm mulling over this comment on reread... I feel it's less likely town would forget who is in which pool and which interactions can or can't be S/S. I've had my fair share of poorly thought out comments/takes this game, but certainly the entire game I've been constantly paying attention to interactions cross-pool and keeping in mind potential scum candidates of each pool. I'm skeptical town!Vanders wouldn't really be aware that Marci/Luke can't be scum together 300+ posts into the game.

[Hopkirk]

GL why do you think Bingle (effectively) self hammered when you'd stated that you were going to be back reading between him and hopkirk the next day?

[Hopkirk]

Vanders pushes GL a lot less than i'd expect from someone who thinks GL is reading him in bad faith around the 700-900 area

[Hopkirk]

i feel like this is GL's towngame and so did Norway very strongly when he has more experience of it hm

[Hopkirk]

at least in terms of interaction with bingle being puffy. but there's an obvious incentive to treat bingle like that + GL just lost a scumgame despite hard bussing and doesn't like it in general so i feel like it still aligns with the scummeta

NM disliked GL for the same reasons that hectic brought up as being most meaningful

[Hopkirk]

when/where/how did you confidently sort NM @GL?

[Hopkirk]

you can't just townread people when it's convenient to townread them but then say you're not looking at the other players by POE. If they're town they're town and you should be willing to put your foot in the ground there. I would say I'm literally never voting Hopkirk or marcistar this game at this point, doesn't feel like you'd commit to the same?

I don't believe his Marci vote was genuine, the fact that it lasted less than 12 hours is just further evidence for that point.

I am hunting to make a scum case on him, because I think he is scum! I've already sorted Hopkirk/Marci to my utmost satisfaction, and I'm comfortable thinking you are green enough for today and likely would still bet the game on you being town. So that leaves me with Dunn/Vander, and people are just blindly townreading Vander and I need to put a massive dent in it because I am going to be pissed if he skates to endgame with how little scumhunting he's done and his passive vote history he's built over this entire game.

Pretty interested to know how this affects your read of me

I actually do think it lowers your scum equity somewhat and I'll use this as an opportunity to give you another olive branch, because I'm really not interested in continuing to relitigate the same points against you and your same defenses against them.

You keep making claims that I don't believe in my scumread on you, I think it should be pretty evident that I do. I've also explained several times why I'm townreading Hopkirk, marcistar, and Lukewarm to the point where I have no interest in voting them unless it got to literally F3 and I had to rethink the whole game. So that leaves me with two candidates left and I find your play to be altogether scummier than Dunn's, and it also looks to me like if you are scum, you are trying a lot harder to

win the game

than a hypothetical scum!Dunn is.

If you are town, and you were to know for a fact that I am town, who would you be looking at here? Because from where I'm sitting Bingle and marci were your only real scumreads yesterday, you haven't committed to any other scumreads today besides arguing with me saying I must be scum because you don't like my case on you, and yet you won't even commit to solid townreads elsewhere to help yourself POE. Part of my goal is to make sure you can't possibly avoid my potential flip today with any semblance of town credit because I see scum!you as the biggest potential threat in this game and I've played very hard to try to ensure that scum!you won't win. If you're really town and I'm flipped today you should have no shot to live through endgame and that means effectively one more chance to identify scum. and I really don't see you caring about that at all, it has felt to me like your priority is to win a 1v1 and survive today.

sorry for less activity the past day or so - I should have a bit more time for the next few hours to play and chat in real time if anyone else is around. I did look through some of Dunn's recent scum and towngames but frankly I didn't spot any patterns that stood out to me or things that might help solve him in this game.

Overall, my latest feelings are:

- I have not wanted to admit it but I am wavering a bit in my confidence of the scumread of Vanders, I'm not sure if that's more due to waiting it out and just getting cold feet or due to both Lukewarm and Hopkirk pouring some water on the flames of that read. I still think he's best bet for scum by POE and my general philosophy of how scum is likely to play, as well as me still being stuck on the awkward "I remembered Marci/Luke can't be S-S" phrasing, but I'm like maybe 50% sure instead of 70-80%. I'm also a bit flummoxed that my response to Hopkirk about townslips was the thing that apparently changed his mind on me, but I can honestly see that coming from either alignment so I couldn't draw any AI conclusions from it, though I do think it's odd for his read to swing so drastically off of just that.

- Since I'm less sure of the Vander read I won't exactly cry today if Dunn is eliminated instead, but I still just don't really see a good reason to think he's scum other than him not really playing very hard. Like if Dunn is scum, you have to believe he didn't try to gain any towncred from scumreading/distancing/pushing Bingle, nor did he try especially hard to protect him, and you have to believe he's happy to give flippant low-effort posts in thread even when most players are casting suspicion his way. It's possible but it just doesn't feel like The One True Answer to me.

- I do see the wishy-washiness in marcistar's posting today that's being called out, the progression from being less trusting of me in 844 to sheeping me in 849 is a bit stilted. I intend to look over her newbie scum game that others mentioned previously as when I skimmed it a week or two ago I thought she played with more agenda there than she did here. I do weigh N_M's vote seriously, and I think if there's scum in the blind spot it'd be her, because I've grown more confident in town!Luke given some of his play today, and Hopkirk is still nigh conftown.

man

am I talking myself into the marci scumread

I gotta work for a bit more so effortpost explaining thoughts later but her associatives with Bingle are kinda worse than I had assumed with review and if I completely disregard the pool spec argument her play fits the same profile I suspect Vander for (constantly scumread/discredit Bingle to disassociate with him, but it's even worse in her case as she didn't actually vote him until Luke goaded her to do so)

yeah 893 is also a great point

UNVOTE:

I'm tired and don't have time to lay out the explanation of things in marci's ISO I didn't like on reread but I can post that tomorrow. Want to get Hopkirk thoughts but I'm starting to feel pretty good about a Marci elim. I changed my own mind with the reasoning I posted earlier today about the number of townies who would have to be wrong at this stage for Vander to be scum

i find the progression on Marci here really hard to buy as coming from town
going from never voting never voting , fully sorted, why won't you hard commit to the read as kind of a gotcha question to vanders > a vote feels like it came far too easily & GL only looked through Marci's iso here? it feels weird to have hard 100% townlocked her without the reread first
plus even when voting Marci it's stuff like 'for the same reasons as my vanders SR' while hard TRing me but also seeming unsure? like how isn't that a scumpool of Marci/Vanders afterwards

the read is very confident then flips at the exact time it would really benefit scum!GL to flip the read and matches the behaviours scum GL does seem to exhibit in the scumreads that don't feel genuine

[Hopkirk]

just noticed from bringing it up later that GL wasn't aware of Vander's extensive experience earlgame, so i can see him seeing vanders as an easy early push

[Hopkirk]

during the lulls where you're considering/voting other people (Dunn/Marci) it doesn't really feel like you've got reasons why your previous solid reasons Vanders is scum don't apply and you bring up the same reasons afterwards

the point about Vanders being scum for voting Marci when he TR Norway & scumleaned Bingle doesn't feel super strong when another criticism is that Vanders voted Bingle shortly afterwards. i can see this as scum, but i can also see it as town shopping around on their votes. it feels a bit harsh arguing that vanders' vote on bingle was scum because he considered voting someone else before committing to the bus

[Hopkirk]

during the lulls when you were rethinking Vanders do you ever address stuff like

- Vander's vote on Marci instead of Bingle
- Vander's post saying he forgot the hoods
- not reading the hood
etc

and say why these kind of things that you thought were smoking guns/strong reasons to SR that you couldn't reconcile coming from town didn't apply?

it feels like you still believed a number of things both both and after the moments where you switch to TRing Vanders and i'm unclear how you mitigated their impact during the time when you were questioning the read

[Hopkirk]

'To me, this feels like scum making things up to simulate a fictional thought process. I don't buy it as an authentic one. I find it remarkably hard to imagine that town!Vanderscamp was reading conversation between two players in the same pool and not already aware that it cannot be a S-S interaction. '

would scum think 'forgetting the pools' sounds like a townslip? given your assumption that it was fake immediately does scum!vanders/scum!bingle discuss this and decide it makes vanders sound townie? i feel like your read of this comment was somewhat intense

[Hopkirk]

I can also relitigate a lot of my D2 case against Vanders, I think it holds up especially with Dunn/Marci confirmed town now. To restate the main points:

- Mid D1, Vanders voted Marci for being 'awkward', then spent most of his next few posts giving reasons to scumread/suspect Bingle. I thought the reasoning for his Marci vote was a lot weaker than the reasoning he had to scumread Bingle, so the fact that he was voting Marci and not Bingle stood out as odd. Especially since he also claimed a strong TR on Norway at the same time, which would make Bingle/N_M a 50/50 proposition at that point. And he cannot explain this with a defense of 'better to eliminate in 6p rather than 3p' because he specifically said he would rather vote his strongest read than vote based on the pool. I think a lot of the D2 discussion focussed too much on this last point rather than the fact that his Marci vote was not justified to the degree that his Bingle read was, in part because Vanders steered the discussion more on the pool argument instead of acknowledging that the Marci vote had weaker reasons than his Bingle read (without vote)

- Vanders at one point claimed to forget that Luke/Marci were both in the 6p. I think that's more likely to be scum pretending to have a thought process rather than a real one - no one else in this game ever 'forgot' who was in which pool.

- Vanders claimed that he didn't read the neighborhood chat when I pointed out he didn't respond to me in there. He then shifted the discussion to "there's no value to posting in there", which again steered the conversation away from the

actual

point which is that even if you don't believe in

posting

in the hood as town, you should still be

reading

it. I call this out in more detail in 749.

- Vanders vote and push back on me throughout D2 seemed more focussed on discrediting my perspective and the argument rather than genuinely thinking I was scum. He gave no reasons for why I was scum outside of ones centered around me not 'believing' my case because my case was bad - but someone as experienced as Vanders should know that townies genuinely push faulty tunnels all the time.

given you had these points d2, can you explain what made you think each of them didn't hold up as much in d3?

[Hopkirk]

*considering you restated their significance here

[Hopkirk]

looking at a lot of the reasons for the scumreads you have on vanders it feels like you're only considering why scum would do/say it rather than weighing that up against why town would
quite a few of the points on vanders still don't seem genuine to me

[Hopkirk]

i feel like this is GL's towngame and so did Norway very strongly when he has more experience of it hm

in terms of Wim/activity

[Hopkirk]

i've been sitting here for about 3 hours now. i'm going to stop for the evening.
i'll very likely have a vote down by the end of the weekend

[Hopkirk]

will probably come online for ~half an hour before i sleep later if there's any posts/things people want to discuss

[Hopkirk]

ah, if you're here i'll stay online then and check back in a bit, but i'm going to change the song i've not fully intentionally been looping for the last three hours to something else

[Hopkirk]

how well do you think Norway can read you? would this be a reason not to put you in the bigger pool?

[Hopkirk]

i should definitely take another look at both votes on Marci/Dunn

[Hopkirk]

Limited access today, will hammer tomorrow at some point

@vanders - when you say the 'scummiest slot' how much are you factoring in prior probability of a slot being scum (1/3 or 1/2 for small pool with 0/1 strong townreads Vs 1/5 for the bigger pool).

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: GuiltyLion

[Hopkirk]

dang

[Hopkirk]

neither of the votes felt right there. wp

[Hopkirk]

immediately after the vote i felt like i wanted to take it back, but i'm pretty sure that would have been the case either way

[Hopkirk]

i don't think Bingle aimed to get himself exiled, just realized eventually there weren't enough townvotes for the hop!exile after the marci vote. that could have made sense with either scum GL or scum vanders though

the other game i was active in was as scum in lylo. it was quite funny to see you attacking me for having a different posting pattern to a scum game

[Hopkirk]

the worst part there is probably that I took your comments about GL having a bunch of reads that didn't sound genuine as my main takeaway from rereading your iso when I was looking through other people's thoughts when I was trying to work out if GL's reads sounded genuine rather than anything about vanders

[Hopkirk]

I think voting Marci was my/our worst decision