Consistency of the Rule Regarding Quotation

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I mean, it's pretty uncharitable to assume that an entire game will decide to break site rules just because the mod decided not to unnecessarily ruin the game.

If Mastina broke the rule, the modkill is justified.

If no rule was broken, and no modkill occurs, it would make sense for everyone else to assume that quoting their role pms is also ok.

If unwnd issues a warning and tells everyone to not quote their role pms without modkilling the slot in question, that's more or less moderator confirmation of the claim and that would be more damaging to the game state by keeping the slot alive AND also unfair to other players in the game.

[Lukewarm]

If you run the two through a plagiarism testing app, it flags it for plagiarism.

I know that mastina said that Toog did the same thing she did without being modkilled, so I would like to point out that I ran both Toog's claim and Toog's role PM through the same plagiarism checker, and it was not flagged for plagiarism - because he did put everything in his own words.

[Cook]

I must be missing something. I feel like the rule of thumb here is to just

not quote moderator communications and then this would stop happening.

[Something_Smart]

Players in the game can usually tell if a quoted role pm came from the moderator just by looking at their own role pm and comparing.

Uh, that's completely false in the situation we're talking about. Phrases such as "negating all support done to them" and "be healed by utility abilities" are never going to be recognizable as coming from unwnd and not mastina. If someone copy-pastes their entire role PM, then yes, in that case it's obvious, and it doesn't matter that you didn't technically say it was from the mod.

I don't think it's unreasonable for players in a game to do things if it works for others, if they see someone do ___ and get cleared, why would it be unreasonable to think such a move would be accepted?

I mean, it isn't accepted. It's against the rules and would be punished. Most people in a community understand that they should not break the community's rules and if they do they will get in trouble, even if they see other people doing it.

[TemporalLich]

A modkill is an administrative action, not a punitive action. Modkills should not be used punitively. Modkilling as punishment is what allows the mod to basically ruin their own game through power tripping.

A modkill should be issued for damaging game integrity via quoting your Role PM and getting yourself an unfair advantage.

A modkill should not be issued because the player needs to be taught a lesson.

All in all, it's better to hold off on a modkill if the situation is at all murky. Only modkill if the risk to game integrity by not removing the slot from the game is greater than the risk to game integrity by modkilling the slot.

And the day phase skip part of modkill is administrative as well - it prevents a modkill from being used as a free elimination and gaining an unfair advantage for the Town.

I don't know anything about checking for plagiarism, but outright copying a flavorful Role PM is almost as bad as quoting a Role PM and therefore a modkill might be justified.

pedit: this entire thread is about trying to figure out if copying moderator communications is as bad as actually quoting them

ppedit: if there's doubt, modkilling is not recommended

[Something_Smart]

I must be missing something. I feel like the rule of thumb here is to just

not quote moderator communications and then this would stop happening.

The thing you're missing is that shit happens. We can't just say "don't quote moderator communications" and then magically nobody will ever quote moderator communications. We still have to have a plan for when the rule is broken. The rule isn't what's being discussed here-- it's the proper response to someone breaking it.

[jjh927]

I would think there are three major points of discussion here;

1. Is a modkill a required response to all infractions of this rule, regardless of context?
2. For something to be a "quote", does it need to be clearly attributable to the moderator?
3. If no to 2, where is the line drawn on how much can be identical to a PM?

[Something_Smart]

If Mastina broke the rule, the modkill is justified.

why? shouldn't it be a priority to not ruin games?

If no rule was broken, and no modkill occurs, it would make sense for everyone else to assume that quoting their role pms is also ok.

But there are other punishments besides modkills... like force-replacement, new game bans, etc. Even just a public warning is still enough to indicate that it isn't okay.

[Lukewarm]

I must be missing something. I feel like the rule of thumb here is to just

not quote moderator communications and then this would stop happening.

The game that jjh is referring to, a player decided to full claim their role in a complex large theme game, and they accidentally used a few strings of verbatim that were identical to the role PM.

I think that it is pretty obvious that the player did not mean to quote the moderator, but... they did. Because there was no intent to do so, the modkill was unexpected by the player - and they also thought it was uncalled for.

So I think the question is, how do you claim your role, while also making sure you don't cross that line.

[Cabd]

I am curious if you have found this to be a prevalent problem across the site, or if you only find this one example to have crossed a line? Are there other games that you are aware of that had modkills for this reason that you think were misruled?

That is actually the only game I have seen where someone was modkilled for this (admittedly, my personal sample size is on the small side).

viewtopic.php?p=12436092#p12436092

Exact same issue. Partial copy of a string of text from the role PM, a different skittle ruled, modkilled.

[TemporalLich]

the main problem with the modkill approval rule is that it shifts the blame for a bad modkill on the listmods, when it should be the game mod's responsibility

[Something_Smart]

That seems like a plus to me... modkills are big enough deals that we don't want mods making the decision on their own-- they're much more likely to get it wrong and/or be inconsistent.

[Lukewarm]

I would think there are three major points of discussion here;

1. Is a modkill a required response to all infractions of this rule, regardless of context?
2. For something to be a "quote", does it need to be clearly attributable to the moderator?
3. If no to 2, where is the line drawn on how much can be identical to a PM?

1) Absolutely. If a rule is a rule, it should be enforced the same, regardless of how it is affecting that exact game. If mods let it slide some of the time, then there will be players who will try their best to walk the line. See how much they can do without enacting the punishment. And it would also make it much harder for mods to be consistent on it - now a mod doesn't just have to look for the rule being broken, they have to try and judge its effect on the game state.

If you want consistency in games, and that is what I want, then the rule needs to be set in stone, and the punishment should be the same every time.

2) This question is tricky, because how are you defining it being "clearly attributable to the moderator." Any time a player is claiming thier role, inherintly, they are attributing thier claim to their role pm. That is the only place it could have come from lol

3) I think that this is the real question of the day. When claiming your role, you are always going to be referencing your role pm, which will always be mod communication. The very nature of claiming your role, you are going to be going into this grey area-- so how do players make sure they are within the acceptable range here

[unwnd]

You don't have the context of the game nor the brevity of the situation. You looked at a modkill happening and assumed my intent was to flex my moderator being and remove someone from the game.

I didn't. That's a role I took a lot of time with and I wanted to see interact with the game. Mastina claimed because she got herself in a bad situation and was already trying to prove her innocence by talking about timestamps in which we communicated on discord. This was already testing my patience, then she just outright claimed aspects of her role as she was being wagoned. How upsetting was it that I had to modkill it because I was worried for the sanctity of the game. You think I just wanted to flush my own work down the drain just to prove a point? No, I did it because the means of which she communicated was outright breaking aspects of the game. If everyone was just able to flavorful claim (as you described) in that game, then things would've gotten out of control. In a game where a mechanic exists where you can coordinate chip damage and everyone pretty much has the ability to do it? Allowing everyone to break the game open and only claim verbatim would confirm multiple mechanics that were meant to be kept hidden or eventually revealed.

[jjh927]

I am curious if you have found this to be a prevalent problem across the site, or if you only find this one example to have crossed a line? Are there other games that you are aware of that had modkills for this reason that you think were misruled?

That is actually the only game I have seen where someone was modkilled for this (admittedly, my personal sample size is on the small side).

viewtopic.php?p=12436092#p12436092

Exact same issue. Partial copy of a string of text from the role PM, a different skittle ruled, modkilled.

Here's the post- I don't think that's the same issue at all. They literally have a long phrase in quotation marks

[Lukewarm]

the main problem with the modkill approval rule is that it shifts the blame for a bad modkill on the listmods, when it should be the game mod's responsibility

I strongly disagree with this actually. Having the listmods make the final decision is a big help in keeping it consistent across games.

If every mod has the final say, then I think that the inconsistency across games would only get worse.

[Lukewarm]

I am curious if you have found this to be a prevalent problem across the site, or if you only find this one example to have crossed a line? Are there other games that you are aware of that had modkills for this reason that you think were misruled?

That is actually the only game I have seen where someone was modkilled for this (admittedly, my personal sample size is on the small side).

viewtopic.php?p=12436092#p12436092

Exact same issue. Partial copy of a string of text from the role PM, a different skittle ruled, modkilled.

Here's the post- I don't think that's the same issue at all. They literally have a long phrase in quotation marks

If you don't think that that is the same issue, then my question still stands. Do you think that this is a wide spread issue, or do you disagree with exactly this one ruling?

[notscience]

I agree with lukewarm. The people in charge of running this site said those actions are not allowed. If it’s not clear that’s one thing, and we can probably make it clearer.

[jjh927]

I don't know if it's a widespread issue- I'll need to know how the listmods officially approach these kind of things

What I do know is it is a possible crack that things can fall down and it's worth discussing as a result

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

But there are other punishments besides modkills... like force-replacement, new game bans, etc. Even just a public warning is still enough to indicate that it isn't okay.

a public warning or force replacement of the slot would be even more damaging to game integrity than a straight up modkill as it would confirm the slot as claimed, giving advantage to the slot - this is unfair to every other player in the game.

[TemporalLich]

Here's the post- I don't think that's the same issue at all. They literally have a long phrase in quotation marks

I agree

it looks like a quote and is flavorful so I would be able to conclude that's actual mod comm instead of a falsifiable claim

This shouldn't be a hard rule to stay on the right side of but this entire thread says otherwise.

Also, modkills should not be seen as punishment. They are a last-ditch effort to save the game from integrity breaches.

pedit: yeah, publically warning or force replacing a slot that quoted their Role PM is a misstep as it highlights the integrity breach instead of fixing it

Force-replacement is for rule-breaking players, and is used as an administrative action to remove a player for damaging game health or damaging game integrity in a way that the slot is still fine.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

in a perfect world, modkills would never happen.

rules would never be broken.

players would not quote their role pm/mod communications

for any reason

unless it is specifically allowed by the moderator.

but when mistakes happen it's up to the mod to use the tools available to mitigate the damage to the game state according to their best judgement for everyone else playing.

[Something_Smart]

a public warning or force replacement of the slot would be even more damaging to game integrity than a straight up modkill as it would confirm the slot as claimed, giving advantage to the slot - this is unfair to every other player in the game.

I mean, it depends on the context. If someone claims to have quoted their role PM, then you COULD force-replace them without doing any

further

damage to the slot, but if the game is closed then too much damage has already been done and they probably do need to be modkilled. (Actually, if it's open, you can probably get away with a force-replace, but that's not a hill I'm willing to die on.)

But, if someone just quietly quotes their role PM and doesn't make a big deal of it, as mastina did, then you can delay the punishment until after the game (or until after the slot has flipped). People will still be aware that the punishment exists, even if it's not immediate.

[jjh927]

But there are other punishments besides modkills... like force-replacement, new game bans, etc. Even just a public warning is still enough to indicate that it isn't okay.

a public warning or force replacement of the slot would be even more damaging to game integrity than a straight up modkill as it would confirm the slot as claimed, giving advantage to the slot - this is unfair to every other player in the game.

Either the situation is bad enough to require a modkill, or it is not. In a fringe case where it is not bad enough to warrant a modkill, you can PM the player in question and say that they have not paraphrased sufficiently and should avoid attributing the words they used to the moderator or bringing attention to how close it resembles the original wording, as if they do so a modkill will be required.

[TemporalLich]

While I'd say that attributing paraphrasing to the moderator is in bad form and I would not disagree with it being modkillable, I don't feel it should warrant a modkill immediately - a private warning would suffice unless the situation is bad enough. It still would look bad on the slot and not just the player though.

You either modkill or you don't, retroactive modkilling doesn't make sense as a punishment.

Quoting timestamps on mod communication is quoting a part of mod communication.