Newbie 2073: Parfait (Over)

[GuyInFreezer]

VC 1.04

T3 (1):

Val89

GeneralWu (2):

Roden, MegAzumarill

Roden (2):

Save The Dragons, T3

shwinnebego (1):

navigatorv

catboi (1):

shwinnebego

Not Voting:

GeneralWu, catboi

With

9

players remaining,

5

votes to eliminate

Deadline:

(expired on 2021-07-25 22:43:37)

[shwinnebego]

..

[shwinnebego]

Anyone got any questions? I got answers!

[Roden]

My feeling on shwinnebago's first read was newbie jumping in with an underexplained scumread on a player who wasn't discussed much is +town. That was undercut by him then accusing a bunch of people in short succession, but I'm fairly sure those accusations aren't really serious, given it was on 4 people for basically nothing. I think I have a tendency to read that sort of trollish playing as town, although that isn't inherently true, that kind of play

can

come from scum that simply doesn't care. My lean right now is toward town but that's a very slight guess.

Roden's vote on shwinnebago pinged me in the same way it did save the dragons - "opportunistic" isn't quite the words I'd use to describe it, but it felt

off

- more like it was a jump on someone who is playing "weird" rather than scummy, the kind of square peg/round hole that makes for easy misyeet fodder in newbie games. I don't find the reasoning about them being inactive particularly compelling - in particular, if someone is not used to checking the site regularly because they're not an obsessive like me, they can easily forget to post. I've been in enough newbie games to know that people from sites with higher activity often simply get bored. So, to me Roden's vote felt like a bit of a "gotcha" that I'd expect to see from scum here. I wasn't particularly a fan of the quick pivot to generalwu, who happens to be the leading wagon, either.

That

felt opportunistic.

This is wild lol. You just called me out because you said I was being too neutral. But now that I'm actually trying to take a stance and move the game forward,

that's

pinging you? What do you suggest we do if we're not allowed to pressure people or even ask questions?

Cold meta skim suggests there's a decent chance Roden is scum here~

Then vote me. I'll hammer myself if this the meta we're going with this game.

Anyone got any questions? I got answers!

I did, but apparently generating content is scummy, so...

[catboi]

If my playstyle is interfering with your having fun, or if you are town-aligned and think my playstyle is unhelpful for town, then you can certainly quorum me to solve the problem! It won't help you quorum a wolf though.

That said, I do think that quoruming me would provide a decent amount of information right now, given that I have managed to elicit reactions from at least catboi, GeneralWu, navigatorv, and maybe someone else who I've forgotten about (can't really be bothered to go back and read carefully).

So preemptively, you're welcome!

That said the day doesn't end for like 10 more years so a lot is likely to transpire in the intervening period.

I think the playstyle you seem to be using can be incredibly frustrating to deal with, as the overconfident, underexplained reads type of play is very difficult to work with. (This is kind of how T3 was in my previous game with him). However, I don't plan on voting someone out day 1 for being unorthodox/difficult, those tend to be mis-elims more often than not.

I do think, finally, that this post is the one that moves you out of null territory and into >rand town.

[shwinnebego]

Here is my primary motivation for voting catboi: catboi is positioning himself as town leader.

I find town leaders to be suspicious.

I hope this is a more satisfying reason than previously!

[catboi]

This is wild lol. You just called me out because you said I was being too neutral. But now that I'm actually trying to take a stance and move the game forward, that's pinging you? What do you suggest we do if we're not allowed to pressure people or even ask questions?

Little bit defensive here? Yes, okay, you did make votes to move the game forward, but my feeling was that those votes, and the reasoning for them, were votes I could see coming from scum here. I'm hardly suggesting you shouldn't be allowed to pressure people or ask questions, and to say that in response seems fairly hyperbolic. By the same token, I'm just pressuring you right now. I'm not married to the read or anything.

[catboi]

Here is my primary motivation for voting catboi: catboi is positioning himself as town leader.

I find town leaders to be suspicious.

I hope this is a more satisfying reason than previously!

Oh my goodness, you're one of

those

. I get why you think that sort of thing is suspicious, and yet, I don't think I've been all that leader-y this game? I'm certainly not really

trying

to do that, though that is a role I try to take sometimes as both alignments.

[shwinnebego]

Here is my primary motivation for voting catboi: catboi is positioning himself as town leader.

I find town leaders to be suspicious.

I hope this is a more satisfying reason than previously!

Oh my goodness, you're one of

those

. I get why you think that sort of thing is suspicious, and yet, I don't think I've been all that leader-y this game? I'm certainly not really

trying

to do that, though that is a role I try to take sometimes as both alignments.

Could be! Anyway, I'm open to other arguments.

[catboi]

I mean, you could point out where you see me as trying to act like a town leader?

[catboi]

@Roden:

What's your read on me?

[Roden]

This is wild lol. You just called me out because you said I was being too neutral. But now that I'm actually trying to take a stance and move the game forward, that's pinging you? What do you suggest we do if we're not allowed to pressure people or even ask questions?

Little bit defensive here? Yes, okay, you did make votes to move the game forward, but my feeling was that those votes, and the reasoning for them, were votes I could see coming from scum here. I'm hardly suggesting you shouldn't be allowed to pressure people or ask questions, and to say that in response seems fairly hyperbolic. By the same token, I'm just pressuring you right now. I'm not married to the read or anything.

My problem here is that, yes, this is a newbie game, but you've played Mafia long enough that you should know that one vote =/= execution, only a hammer does. My vote on Shwinnebego was the only vote on him and I was the only person trying to apply pressure. He wasn't in any danger of getting flash wagon'd, let alone eliminated. Not only that, but Wu clearly already had a wagon going, and T3 had two votes on him and was within wagon range. If I'm scum they're the more clear choice here, since Wu already has suspicion on him and I already said I had suspicions on T3.

It's not like I'm just bullshitting either. You have a read on Shwinnebego now that you didn't have before. I don't see how you can genuinely scum read me while also benefiting from the pressure I applied which you scum read me for.

@Roden:

What's your read on me?

After that last post, it's not looking good. Scum reading somebody for applying pressure on a non-presence doesnt feel like a town thought process at all. However, I think it's bad for town if I OMGUS tunnel you for that, and I don't want to counter argument further while I'm still in a defensive mind set since that screwed me over in my last town game. I'm just gonna stand back for now.

[Val89]

I am back in business and catching up now.

Thanks for your patience, all.

[catboi]

My problem here is that, yes, this is a newbie game, but you've played Mafia long enough that you should know that one vote =/= execution, only a hammer does. My vote on Shwinnebego was the only vote on him and I was the only person trying to apply pressure. He wasn't in any danger of getting flash wagon'd, let alone eliminated. Not only that, but Wu clearly already had a wagon going, and T3 had two votes on him and was within wagon range. If I'm scum they're the more clear choice here, since Wu already has suspicion on him and I already said I had suspicions on T3.

It's not like I'm just bullshitting either. You have a read on Shwinnebego now that you didn't have before. I don't see how you can genuinely scum read me while also benefiting from the pressure I applied which you scum read me for.

Well, I'm not really sure your vote was what provoked the response from shwinn that lead me to read him as town, and even if it

were

, that doesn't make you inherently town, you know? I know Shwinn wasn't in danger of getting executed, that wasn't my problem with your vote - my problem was more along the line that your vote felt like one scum would make, going after someone on a technicality like them being inactive when they're used to shorter games, which, as I said, felt like a "gotcha", when in reality it's very likely he just wasn't that interested in the game regardless of alignment.

After that last post, it's not looking good. Scum reading somebody for applying pressure on a non-presence doesnt feel like a town thought process at all. However, I think it's bad for town if I OMGUS tunnel you for that, and I don't want to counter argument further while I'm still in a defensive mind set since that screwed me over in my last town game. I'm just gonna stand back for now.

*Shrug* As I've said, wasn't about you applying pressure necessarily, but the way an reason you did it.


I don't scum read you any more, though.


VOTE: GeneralWu

[Val89]

Catboi, I am still in the process of reading though what I've missed, but you've been in the game long enough to know you should be calling attention to the fact that vote puts GeneralWu at E-1, and the next vote will be hammer, right?

[Val89]

Honestly it seems like GeneralWu is either scum that is paired with shwinnebago.

Just a quickie in the meantime: Was this intended to read as it does, MegAzumarill?

It reads to me like there should have been some more to that - It seems like GeneralWu either scum with shwimmebago OR....

[catboi]

Catboi, I am still in the process of reading though what I've missed, but you've been in the game long enough to know you should be calling attention to the fact that vote puts GeneralWu at E-1, and the next vote will be hammer, right?

I'm paying so much attention to the game that I know the mod's VC at the top of the page is incorrect, because T3 changed his vote to Roden. (I have contacted the mod to correct this)

[Val89]

Alright, my bad. I wont rely on the #150 vote count.

[T3]

shwinn -_-
VOTE: wu

[T3]

I can't read walls on 4 hours of sleep help

[shwinnebego]

I mean, you could point out where you see me as trying to act like a town leader?

that sounds hard. i'll just let other people decide if they agree or not

[Val89]

T3

Scumread.

I don't consider the stuff in #13 about the content of T3's FAQ post to AI, it was my usual semi-serious sounding RVS waffle. I do, however, consider his response in 15 to be genuinely scummy.

In case you missed it, T3 was softing, with some debatable degree of seriousness, at being a Friendly Neighbour. 17 was an acknowledgement and a reference to the previous game we played together - 2070. If you click the link, you will see that the issue of T3's crumbing habits came up in that game. TL:DR: He fake crumbs a lot as scum, and until that game hadn't done it at all as town, even when he was a PR. It didn't work out all that well in that 2070 game either.

He knew I was already aware of his 'meta' around this issue. He obviously knows the utility of fake crumbing as scum in newbie games, and likes to do it a fair bit. He knew, and it was pointedly directed at me, that I was likely to wonder if he was scum for doing it, and even if I did respond to it as I did, that wouldn't detract from the scum utility of it. In short, it was an anti-town move he ought to have known was anti-town, without being over-the-top obvious to others. 126 can take on a few more layers of meaning in that context, but we should note that it certainly isn't T3s first game.

There has been an awful lot of vote switching since then with not a huge amount of justification. He's been able to pick up a handful of Townreads along the way, and I can see why others might have gone that way, but scum don't act scummy in every post, and it's much easier to come across townie by throwing out reads when you already know everyone's alignment.

That last vote, though? Yikes. Given that I had just come in and posted 164 I feel like this could have been another targeted interaction aimed at me. I think he is hoping to pick up a "too scummy to be scum" townread from me, but seriously, I think in combination it's just a little

too

scummy to be too scummy to be scum.

You can henceforth consider my vote on T3 to be a serious non-RVS vote. My other reads are incoming, but this is my strongest so-far, and I want to get this in the thread just in case someone does come along and quickhammers Wu.

For the avoidance of doubt: Unless there is a further mistake in the vote count, General Wu is actually now at E-1.

[shwinnebego]

GeneralWu - Town. The fact that votes stacked up so easily suggests that one of the folks on them is worth looking at. I bet the wolves split today

navigatorv - Town. They responded suspiciously to my stirring the pot, which I appreciate - and they did so in a style that vibed town to me.

shwinnebego - me. I'm a town hero, always have been.

MegAzumarill - I read them as evil. Reactive. Waffly.

Roden - Can't remember off the top of my head but I'm gonna go with likely Evil for now.

Val89 - Most recent vote suggests Town to me. I like moving out of jokevote phase

T3 (SE) - An early jokevote for me, now seeming increasingly evil - Val has a pretty good argument but not enough for me to vote

catboi (SE) - Evil. Town leaders are sus. I don't know anyone's playstyle here, so we'll see. I wanna keep pressure on.

Save The Dragons (SE) - No read, can't remember any posts. Null for now.

[Roden]

My problem here is that, yes, this is a newbie game, but you've played Mafia long enough that you should know that one vote =/= execution, only a hammer does. My vote on Shwinnebego was the only vote on him and I was the only person trying to apply pressure. He wasn't in any danger of getting flash wagon'd, let alone eliminated. Not only that, but Wu clearly already had a wagon going, and T3 had two votes on him and was within wagon range. If I'm scum they're the more clear choice here, since Wu already has suspicion on him and I already said I had suspicions on T3.

It's not like I'm just bullshitting either. You have a read on Shwinnebego now that you didn't have before. I don't see how you can genuinely scum read me while also benefiting from the pressure I applied which you scum read me for.

Well, I'm not really sure your vote was what provoked the response from shwinn that lead me to read him as town, and even if it

were

, that doesn't make you inherently town, you know? I know Shwinn wasn't in danger of getting executed, that wasn't my problem with your vote - my problem was more along the line that your vote felt like one scum would make, going after someone on a technicality like them being inactive when they're used to shorter games, which, as I said, felt like a "gotcha", when in reality it's very likely he just wasn't that interested in the game regardless of alignment.

I think there's a misunderstanding here or maybe I wasn't clear enough with my intentions. Considering T3 and Wu also reacted similarly as you, it's probably the latter. I wasn't trying to get Shwinn elim'd or even really get a wagon going, I was basically just pointing an empty gun at him and telling him to explain. I wasn't trying to provoke an inactive player to post more, but just get him to clear up the situation. What bugged me is that nobody seemed to want to let him and kept trying to speak for him.

After that last post, it's not looking good. Scum reading somebody for applying pressure on a non-presence doesnt feel like a town thought process at all. However, I think it's bad for town if I OMGUS tunnel you for that, and I don't want to counter argument further while I'm still in a defensive mind set since that screwed me over in my last town game. I'm just gonna stand back for now.

*Shrug* As I've said, wasn't about you applying pressure necessarily, but the way an reason you did it.


I don't scum read you any more, though.


VOTE: GeneralWu

Are you getting bad vibes from Wu? Or do you think he just hasn't really done much to get a town read yet?

[GuyInFreezer]

bump