Newbie 2073: Parfait (Over)

[GuyInFreezer]

VC 1.08

T3 (2):

Val89, catboi

GeneralWu (1):

T3

shwinnebego (3):

navigatorv, Roden, Save The Dragons

Save The Dragons (1):

MegAzumarill

navigatorv (1):

shwinnebego

Not Voting:

GeneralWu

With

9

players remaining,

5

votes to eliminate

Deadline:

(expired on 2021-07-25 22:43:37)

[Save The Dragons]

the real important question is which is the most delicious looking parfait

[catboi]

General Wu plays confidently, and attracted a quick pileup of votes, many of which melted away. My sense is genuinely that a quick pile-on followed by a quick melt-away is indeed suspicious, as it speaks to some coordinated action behind the scenes. While my specific sus on catboi for unvoting when I threatened to hammer was largely sneered at as irrational, trollish, and inattentive to the longer-term dynamics of a game like this (namely, that we lose information by truncating Day 1 prematurely), I maintain that the overall dynamic that I pointed out - whether or not we agree that catboi in particular ought to be the target of suspicion that emerges from said dynamic - is valid, and merits attention. Moreover, I also maintain that without the legitimate threat of a hammer on a player, vote pressure relatively early on during Day 1 becomes meaningless, and so I do not apologize for my jocular hammer threat, nor do I concede that it was unambiguously a silly thing to proffer. I do not see tremendous value in debating this exact matter further, but I hope this makes sense to at least some of you!

In a game with only 2 scum, the idea of behind the scenes coordination doesn't really hold much weight - that kind of thing rarely happens in my experience, most scum teams don't plan that much but are generally more cautious to not appear as though they're working together. That kind of thing might be more common if you're used to fast-paced, chaotic games with larger mafia teams, I'm just saying I do not think that is what happened here. I also maintain my reasons for unvoting are soundly protown.

I disagree heavily with the notion that the threat of a hammer is the only pressure that provoke a useful response from a player but that's fine if you don't want to debate it further. I feel like the vote movement and wagons have been plenty useful in getting reactions already.

Generally as scum you have an agenda, you decide when to push who and for what reason in advance. You don't usually call out half the town as likely evil. It's not that scum never scumreads a lot of people early on (it can be pretty effective at instilling disruption), but in my experience it happens more to townies.
I also recognize that my playstyle may indeed come across as suspicious to someone looking in.

Meh, it's always beneficial as scum to keep your options open, I've had times where I wanted to do nothing but attack people but remembered you actually need to not look like you're okay with killing absolutely everyone. Of course, someone can be paranoid town as well, I'm just not sure having a lot of scumreads is a tell either way to me. It's dependent on the playstyle and attitude of the person with the reads.

Something about shwinn's approach shifting toward being serious and verbose after being illogical and terse actually has me a bit on edge but still probably going to defer to my instincts and not vote there.

[catboi]

i'm not big on long posts but every once in a while i'll pull something out of my butt

You're the best poster in this thread as far as I'm concerned, regardless of your alignment! I commend your playstyle, keep it up.

Now this post seems like an attempt at pocketing.

Do you think shwinn is scummy? You didn't actually give any suspects in your reads list earlier.

[GeneralWu]

I feel that T3 is town because he's trying to solve the game. However, something about him seems a bit off.

I haven't looked at Val too much yet since he just got back like yesterday.

catboi is town because he could've just left his vote on me and let shwinnie zgrynibys me for no reason, but he didn't do that.

navigator seems genuinely trying to help, though I don't agree with everything he says about mechanics.

Meg is also towny. Though he makes fewer posts, those posts actually contain content that moves the game along. He also tried to stimulate discussion even very early in the game, indicating that he was trying his best to scumhunt and move the game out of RVS.

Roden seems weird since he was quick to jump on shwinnie. It's a bit scummy, but I don't think Roden/shwinnie is w/w.

save the dragons is inactive and most of his posts are one-liners. Some of his posts also don't do anything to move the game along.

shwinnie and Roden are the most suspicious people as of right now in my opinion.

[Roden]

shwinnie and Roden are the most suspicious people as of right now in my opinion.

I was a pretty strong town read in your eyes up until I suspected you, so it's hard to take this as anything other than OMGUS.

[GeneralWu]

shwinnie and Roden are the most suspicious people as of right now in my opinion.

I was a pretty strong town read in your eyes up until I suspected you, so it's hard to take this as anything other than OMGUS.

I found you suspicious when you said something along the lines of "if you don't vote shwinnie, I have no choice but to vote you".

For this reason, I don't think you and shwinnie are w/w.

[GeneralWu]

I just don't think it's towny to say "vote [player] or I'll have no choice but to pressure you instead".

[GeneralWu]

VOTE: SavetheDragons

I dislike eliminating shwinniebego here for a few reasons.
1. The first is that I find it likely that if they are a town, they are probably a PR ( or doing some WIFOM thing). I would not want to out them if they are so.
2. I think that their flip doesn't give us much information. Either they are a town that has very much struggled adapting to the meta on this site, or they flip scum, which would be a very attractive bus on a new player. Either way we don't learn much about other players.
3. I honestly don't scumread them that much, they seem too apart from the norm of mafia games like this, so I think their behavior is NAI.
4. I feel that their input will generate discussion that could end up being useful to town.

Instead I feel like StD is a better vote, they overall don't provide much to town.

Shwinniebego, you should post your input if you feel like you need to say something, it will both help you get better and may help town.

I would like StD to post their reads and contribute a bit more substance. It doesn't really matter if you can't post often, but at least try to post something that is useful when you do.

And T3 appears to be avoiding confronting the accusation made at him by Val89, although the accusation doesn't hold a whole lot of weight imo.

So how did you feel that shwinnie's input will generate discussion that could end up being useful to town? Before you made this post, I don't think shwinnie posted much content or gave many reasons for his reads.

I also want meg to answer this question, because I'm pretty curious.

[Roden]

I just don't think it's towny to say "vote [player] or I'll have no choice but to pressure you instead".

Can you show me where I said that?

[GeneralWu]

Avoiding attention is also NAI.

Gonna have to disagree here. He's not just avoiding attention, he's lying to evade directly saying that. I don't see the town motivation for that.

I’ll post more complete reads eventually. I didn’t realize that each game day was a week tbh


Home forum is breadnroses, game days are usually a day

Range of high chaos to vanilla but we skew high chaos

You're used to 24 hour games but then you disappeared for over 36 hours? Doesn't really add up to me.

VOTE: Shwinnebego

He might just be busy or something.
Or he might think that since day 1 is so long, there's no need to post as much right now.
I think his activity is NAI.

You're assuming a lot here. If any of that was an issue I think he'd just say that.

Not really sure why you two seem to be against pressuring him and want to shut down potential content. Are you TMI'ing that you know Shwin is town?

VOTE: GeneralWu

I don't normally switch my vote up this much. But if you don't want to pressure scummy activity, then pressuring you instead seems like the only way to get this game going.

Can you tell me why you don't even want to consider pressuring someone who lied and is trying to avoid attention?

[Roden]

That doesnt say "vote [player] or I'll have no choice but to pressure you instead". At no point do I tell you to vote Shwinn or die. You just completely shut down my suspicions without giving a real reason for why, despite me not even specifically asking you to give a hot take.

I'm not sure what you expect me to do in this scenario tbh. If you're shutting down my suspicions and leaving yourself as the only scum read person left (at the time), am I supposed to just say "well I guess the mod forgot to assign scum roles this game"? Like, I don't really understand what else you'd want me to do.

[Roden]

Suspecting somebody =/= execute this player or you're scum claiming. I don't know why I have to explain this.

[shwinnebego]

shwinnie and Roden are the most suspicious people as of right now in my opinion.

I was a pretty strong town read in your eyes up until I suspected you, so it's hard to take this as anything other than OMGUS.

yeah definitely this

[shwinnebego]

I am indeed seeing Wu as more sus now. Hmmmmm....

[T3]

Wu is blatantly trying to pocket. His reads are only based on who scumreads him.

[GeneralWu]

Wu is blatantly trying to pocket. His reads are only based on who scumreads him.

That is not true.

[shwinnebego]

tsbts?

[Val89]

I've moved into a slight townlean on GeneralWu, and won't be helping you flip him today unless the alternative is a no lim. I also think schwinns attempt to start a navigator wagon is going to go nowhere unless he can come up with more convincing justification than he has thus far, given I am fairly confident with my townread on that slot, and I think others are too.

I get the impression of a newb town fumbling his way through with GeneralWu. My initial light scumlean came from the lack of game-relevant posting; and he is being scumread more generally from what I can tell because of what was perceived as an unwarranted defense of schwinn; and later a healthy dose of OMGUS-ing.

On the subject of the 'defense'; others have now come out to say what GeneralWu had to say about schwinn, so unless we are going to read multiple people as scummy for this, I don't think it's AI. Secondly, if he is town and not really sure how to read people - and it certainly seems that way; his read of T3 game solving is straight up wrong (and it's telling T3's reaction was "this guy is pocketing me" when that came up; even T3 knows he ain't doing a lot of gamesolving) and I found it a little odd he hadn't looked at me, given I had been a pretty active poster before that read list. That being the case, OMGUS seems like the default position for that lost town to take. He knows he is town, so in the absence of knowing what else to look for, those calling him scum, and are obviously wrong in his eyes, might well be the scum he is looking for.

I alos think that unless we have a scum pairing consisting of two newbies, both unfamiliar with site meta, I'm not convinced there wouldn't have been a few words of advice directed at GeneralWu by now in the PT.

It's not a strong read, but I'm leaning in the green direction at this point, and I'm starting to smell a whiff of scum moving on to a slot they think might have potential as a mislim here. Unless something comes up to change my mind, you can count me out of a Wu wagon.

[shwinnebego]

I've moved into a slight townlean on GeneralWu, and won't be helping you flip him today....

navigator wagon is going to go nowhere

So who do you think is evil

[Val89]

So who do you think is evil

Where is my vote, Schwin?
Whom have I been pushing since I came back from V/LA?

Should be clue there, somewhere...

[shwinnebego]

what's v/la

[shwinnebego]

So who do you think is evil

Where is my vote, Schwin?
Whom have I been pushing since I came back from V/LA?

Should be clue there, somewhere...

Also, buddy, it's a newbie game - if you strongly prefer to act like a snarky lil' shit instead of fielding my admittedly naïve questions just let me know and I will direct my inquiries elsewhere - we can save ourselves both some time

[shwinnebego]

Either way, who do you think is evil besides T3?

[catboi]

what's v/la

vacation/limited access, when a player lets the mod and other players in the game know they will be inactive for a period of time.