Situation Room [Game Over!]

[OkaPoka]

its so easy please just work with me and thus work with all of us and give your thoughts on who should be in and not in the neighborhood for today. its literally a readslist. basically all im asking for is a readslist. A READSLIST! I JUST WANT YOU TO CATEGORIZE YOUR THOUGHTS BASICALLY. AND THEN JUST AGREE TO FOLLOW A BASIC PLAN OF WHO TO VOTE AND WHO NOT TO VOTE.

[OkaPoka]

like its so easy, its only hard if you think its hard, but it is in fact, quite easy. like so easy. like you can get schoolchildren to follow a plan. so easy PLEASE!

[OkaPoka]

like i bet if you ran this game in the newbie queue with ICs and the IC said this is how the game is played all the newbies would instantly jump to it because its so easy like so easy like ridiculously trivial in the scale of things we do while playing mafia like this is basically doing the two most primitive steps of mafia which is giving reads and voting people like that's all it is, im not asking for you to prove something or solve an equation or design a solution or anything like that, im asking for 1) readslist 2) follow a plan of vote or not vote like oh my god its so easy you can code a simulation of this trivially. std just say you will work with us.

imagine a world where you say you oppose and you are town. in this world then scum can just say they oppose and 4 people opposing means this is just dead in the water and we can't move anywhere. but let's say no townies oppose, what a beautiful, fantastic world that is, a rational world. then are all the scum going to band together and say they oppose? that's a lot of pressure. probably not. if they do oppose they are meat to eat. you know. we just need to be brave enough to think we can work together and policy those who won't.

[OkaPoka]

are u brave enough std, if you are brave enough you aren't the hang up. you are the champion of justice! the arbiter of truth! this is not don quixote fighting windmills!

If we can put a man on the moon, surely we can leash neighborhoods?

[OkaPoka]

thx bb fakegod ilu

[OkaPoka]

and if u think its hard i think this very legitimate jfk quote works for you. not that its actually hard but if you think its hard i mean jfk did once very much and with 100% historical certainty say


We choose to leash the neighborhoods. We choose to leash the neighborhoods...We choose to leash the neighborhoods today and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard; because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one we intend to win, and the others, too.

[OkaPoka]

please, say more. why are you opposing leashing the neighborhoods

[OkaPoka]

next post you make ill give u a pass to whatever you say to me, no matter how mean, i am okay with it

[OkaPoka]

right now, my mind cannot comprehend a townie having played the game like you did. so if you want to lash out at me, it'll be fine for one post. i don't understand you. i don't understand why you keep wanting to oppose the obvious. is it the fun reason? are you despising me because i have become the harbinger of anti fun? i find the debates over leashing neighborhoods and who to leash to be fascinating so perhaps i can convince you there. what do you enjoy about neighborhoods? i don't understand you and i need to understand you and restraining yourself and being passive aggressive is just going to keep building tension

[OkaPoka]

can someone sparknotes to me what the is-ought thing is about and how it relates to neighborhoods

[OkaPoka]

Im confused. How is it a given we can't leash neighborhoods? Why can't we make a judgment call on whether we ought to leash the neighborhood?

The goal is to win, therefore i should play to win and thus leveraging the setup for an advantage is good? Unless the argument is there is no moral reason to think that winning is good and thus no purpose in playing to win

[OkaPoka]

My reading is that because we there is no reason to think we should play to win thus there is no reason to do things that can make us win.

[OkaPoka]

Or at least help us win

[OkaPoka]

Well, as frustrating as yuri is, at least im learning about philosophy or whatever. Keep it coming

[OkaPoka]

Also thanks guilty for the translation. Wikipedia is too scary to read

[OkaPoka]

Oka, do you want me on the wagon? It seems Lavar is the lim

the purpose rn is not to make my reads the only reads that matter. i want everyone's reads and then we convene to find who should be on wagon and who should not.

[OkaPoka]

a50... lol

[OkaPoka]

Subject: TM 2021 Large Normal: OEIS Mafia (Part Two Is Out)

before i pretend to go to sleep its poe time

okapoka

hercule, hopkirk, unwnd, ceph

ducky, danny

a50? titus?

agar??? dunny???

iv, jv, xtoxm, uncrowned, dgb, abr, ythan

bruh there are still so manyyyyyyyyyy

Subject: TM 2021 Large Normal: OEIS Mafia (Part Two Is Out)

my turn to do some coloring

"the bloc"

{okapoka, ducky, danny, cephrir, hercule}

"the bloc's allies of convenience (people who are doing their own things that happen to align with the bloc) aka the BAC

{dunny, unwnd, hopkirk, IV}

"the opposition"

{xtoxm, abr, winter flakes, a50, agar, mastina}

unaligned

{ythan, titus, dgb}

The bloc is defined as the group of people who all are vibe checking each other and for the most part, mutually back each other enough to the point where they have very similar PoE's, are pushing similar people to get flipped, have been on wagons with each other multiple times for the sake of trusting each other. They are on very similar wavelengths to the point where if someone posts something scummy, they can all sync up their minds and wagon someone very quickly without explanation, or at least they like to think so, because there may be pretenders to the cause. Agent OkaPoka is the lead hyperposter who seems to avoid scumreads from most members of the opposition, but other members of the bloc are not so fortunate. Agent the_worst Codename: ducky seems to be the primary target of the deepwolf label by most members of the opposition. Ceph and Hercule are both significant targets of the scumread and are accused of being opportunistic with the timing? of their posting, aka active lurking? Dannyboi aka the Charisma seems to have the least but still has deep seated fears about being the real deepwolf. But the bloc continues to chug along, even though I suspect all members of the bloc have a suspicion to who in the bloc has been buddying and pocketing the rest of them, but they want to keep their fears private for the near future and look for the other wolves.

The bloc's allies of convenience aka the BAC are people who have a lot with the bloc to the point where they might as well be part of the bloc but for whatever reasons are not. Members like Dunnstral has largely aligned with the desires of the bloc through his posting and voting pattern, but does not participate in the bloc's many uncertainties and continuous cyclical vote swapping. Unwnd is a person who has completely aligned himself with the bloc even with expressed apprehension towards the bloc and expression that the alliance is only out of convenience for the elongated day. Hopkirk appears to align himself with the bloc in the sense that he trusts most of the bloc, but appears to push people outside of the bloc at his own discretion mainly. IV pretty much isn't doing much and seems to express a sense of not knowing what's happening but continuously aligns himself with the bloc with the way he votes and is swung by what the bloc wants.

The opposition represents the members who have openly expressed a deep disliking for the existence of the bloc and the desire to kill multiple members of the bloc, today. The opposition, though seemingly fragmented at points, at this point have been united in their mutual townreads for each other and scumreads for different members of the bloc. They have repeatedly sowed paranoia into the bloc and labelled bloc activities as driven by policy on obvious town, and have been largely united in openly defending each other and question the bloc's intentions. However united they are in agreeing that there are at least 2 members of the bloc who are scum, they are split apart by who they actually want to flip today, largely by their own volition in xtoxm refusing to play the game, abr purposely splitting his vote away from others, and flakes seemingly only concerned with chainsaws. A50, it's hard to tell what he is trying to do, but his actions does speak to essentially protecting other members of the opposition while purging members of the bloc or others. AGar/mastina are members of the opposition whom I was thinking about including one or the other, however they are probably not united nor are they aligned the same. But I will leave them both in the opposition because in the end, they do try and protect other members of the opposition through their actions, want to yeet members of the bloc, and express a strict opposition to bloc activities (although I will say mastina seems to undermine the bloc more than agar). Many members of the opposition townread at least one, if not both of these individuals, in spite of them trying to yeet the other one off. Interesting dynamic to say the least.

The last grouping are the wildcards, the neutral, the unaligned. The people who I can't categorize because they have played both sides or in the case of ythan, really played no side. These members are also unaligned because neither the bloc nor the opposition really want to claim them as their own or their allies and honestly, they don't really have unified people who are defending them. These are the true low hanging fruit, the people who will probably be the target of a compromise wagon if forced, because townreads on them are not expressed in unison, and most people feel nullish on them. Of course there are townreads on members and dgb is one of the more polarizing members of the neutrals, but in the end, when the chips are down, neither the bloc nor the opposition will go to bat for members in the neutral, unless they feel like they can get a flip without needing to compromise. Maybe some individuals from the bloc and the opposition will, but it will not be enough to swing the rest of the group.


this is how im grouping the game ~ and I think scum have divided themselves into these groups because if I were scum this is how I would have positioned the game out. but i will say if any grouping has two scums, its in the opposition (but im biased).

distribution in my head probably looks like 1 1 1 1 or 1 0 2 1 or 1 1 2 0 or 0 1 2 1

this is the pre re roll game a50. and while, perhaps there could be some underlying meaning linking me and dusa together if i were scum, my listing style itself is NAI because i list this way because its how i think

[OkaPoka]

Bingle if you could releash the neighborhood today from the start, what would you be looking at?

[OkaPoka]

A50 im interested in your thoughts on what your optimal neighborhood would be as well

[OkaPoka]

The wagon today should ideally be the seven towniest people with a roughly even number from each neighborhood, FWIW

This is true. I'm not going to attempt to force it through, because attempting to force it through is the surest way of killing WIM for town.

then why make this post?

[OkaPoka]

are yall just purposely avoiding giving input on who should be in the neighborhood? im basically asking for a readslist for gods sake

[OkaPoka]

bingle, im asking a pure hypothetical on who you would have in the neighborhood if you were an imaginary dictator

[OkaPoka]

these easy lims are our best chance on leashing a neighborhood because we already agree on who to lim ugh...

[OkaPoka]

the day was not ready to resolve yet, why did you two make the unilateral decision to speedrun it

[OkaPoka]

im kinda ready to set the world on fire, lock yuri town, and lim titus because while yuri certainly makes no sense. there is a decent chance that scum are capitalizing on yuri's desire to not to mech. im being surprised by certain people who are turning away from mech and feel like it may mean something

anyways im going to sit on this for a while and think whether this eod means anything.

[OkaPoka]

because i dont want to believe bingle is scum ;-;

it felt theatrical though, one two punch. i think you fit as a person who would be using me as a townbeard to push yuri, but yeah it was really bingle's choice in speedrunning the day when there was clearly issues on the table to talk about.

[OkaPoka]

i agree LM had to die but clearly things were going on still and choosing to end day immediately is annoying at best and scummy at worst

[OkaPoka]

scum can pretty clearly venge phase II no?

a50 my lists were literally colored in the scum game as well lol

[OkaPoka]

you can have hoods and normal scum hunting... its just choosing who to be on the wagon after we decided who to lim

[OkaPoka]

but i doubt you care because you shunned my suggestion entirely on forming neighborhoods yesterday and ignored me and are choosing now to bring it up

[OkaPoka]

so men just want to see the world burn

[OkaPoka]

so im scum because my readslist is not colored im so done i dont even want to respond to anything

[OkaPoka]

how was that not evident bingle, nsg literally modelled this off as vengeful mafia lmfao

[OkaPoka]

my laughter is sarcastic my tilt is out of orbit

[OkaPoka]

i actually do not believe you genuinely thought scum couldnt venge like what? that setup is so breakable

[OkaPoka]

yes, this is how nsg designs game. she made baton pass ffs, adding scumsided mechanics have the purpose of letting town figuring out the puzzle of removing that disadvantage

[OkaPoka]

its... scumsided but that's what makes it good. i dont believe bingle actually thought scum don't get venges phase II tho

[OkaPoka]

bingle is not going after a50

[OkaPoka]

hmm ok i can buy bingle didn't know now i suppose. i thought is was fairly evident looking at the role pms in op but there were no role pms in the setup page

[OkaPoka]

nai for titus because titus historically is pretty messy with setup stuff

[OkaPoka]

oh, you mean did she townslip? possibly. i dont like leaning into townslips but it could have been.

[OkaPoka]

the game is nightless tho... every kill is a lim?

[OkaPoka]

Bell was killed because one of me, bingle, titus, yuri, maybe dusa is scum and knows bell is a walking trust tell

[OkaPoka]

Theoretically others can be included as well but if you know bell, you know he had to go

[OkaPoka]

Well if you are going to lim me thats a fine reason. Nothing would make me happier than getting limmed for being a genius xd

[OkaPoka]

Well we lost an opportunity to leashhhhh

[OkaPoka]

Sorry yuri

[OkaPoka]

We will lim t3 today yuri, can you help me leash tho i promise i can make it fun

[OkaPoka]

Ironically you should townread me for that but thats life

[OkaPoka]

Leashing is fun because it sparks interesting conversations other than x is scum get him boys. We get to talk about psychology and how ppl interact

[OkaPoka]

One day bell will high octane gameplay us as scum and roll us all fg but until that day he gets the effort read

[OkaPoka]

Well the idea is since we pretty much all know who we want to lim, let's figure out who we want on the neighborhood.

[OkaPoka]

Im pointing out how lavar and t3 lims really have no opposition and are inevitable deaths so we have an opportunity to use this moment to agree on who should be on wagons rather than rat racing it

[OkaPoka]

Leashing on a hard choice is rough, but the choice is made. We can rat race for t3 or discuss who should be where

[OkaPoka]

Likewise for lavar but the speedrunning community decided differently

[OkaPoka]

Like there is realistically no substantial discussion on lavar wagon or t3 wagons because nobody will defend them and most everyone wants them dead. Im proposing we use this moment to do something more productive then sleepwalking through the day meaninglessly

[OkaPoka]

Yes. Lets. I need everyone's input tho ow ill get accused of dictatorship when im bored of no response

[OkaPoka]

Who do you want, not want, don't care. Go

[OkaPoka]

Want, guilty, bingle, fakegod, dusa me
Not want t3, std, yuri
Dont care: others

[OkaPoka]

it doesnt mean i dont care about u : (

just, not enough to swing me one way or the other you know

[OkaPoka]

can we get more input on the neighborhoods, if YURI GAGARIN IS GIVING INPUT IT MEANS YOU CAN TOO!

[OkaPoka]

yuri, titus read pls

[OkaPoka]

fakegod why r u still mad over lavar this cant be the first time you've dealt with a chronic lurker

[OkaPoka]

thats e1 and still have not heard your opinion on neighborhoods dgb

[OkaPoka]

Want, guilty, bingle, fakegod, dusa me
Not want t3, std, yuri
Dont care: others

Want, guilty, bingle, fakegod, dusa me
Not want t3, std, yuri
Dont care: others

Want me, Bingle, Titus, GL

Not want: You, Dusa

Don't care: Everyone else

T3 12
Dusa 12
Yuri Gagarin 123
FakeGod 13
GuiltyLion 13
DrippingGoofball 13
OkaPoka 1
Save The Dragons 1
Almost50 2
UNOwen 23
Bingle 23
Titus 23

Roughly speaking if LM were the lim here we'd want 2/3 of Me/Titus/A50 to join.

To further the spiderweb, the wagon should be A50, STD, Oka. Dusa, GL, Me, and either Titus or Uno would be my preferred additions. Yuri should not be on another wagon if town because he's already a parity weak point.

my input is, I don't like having both A50/Dragons in this hood but my hunch/hope would be that we kill one of them next on a T3 redflip

I'd like if Oka is in the hood, he hasn't been in either of the previous two hoods.

As for another thought, I'm remembering this comment:

@CB, who is scum?

I am reluctant to list anyone on my wagon until the game almost or has completed, but here is where my brain is going: {Dusa, UNOwen, Oka, Bell, Lavar} is my pool currently.
But to pretense this, I don't believe my wagon is full of scum, maybe 2 maximum.

At the time, the Cupcake wagon was:
{Bingle, FakeGod, DrippingGoofball, Dannflor, Almost50, Gamma}

Do we think CB named five townies none of whom voting him in his scumpool while ignoring his wagon with a least one confscum (Gamma), potentially at least another?

Town:
Guilty lion
Bingle
Yuri
Oka
A50
Dusa

Null:
fakegod
Uno

Scum:
DGB
T3
Titus maybe

I mean you can try to work out a plan for who else should be on if you want so long as FG, DGB, Titus are on (and i think prob bingle)

am i missing anyone

[OkaPoka]

im going to work on neighborhood development but i mean i hope that more than half of the list would have an opinion >_<

[OkaPoka]

ill count the stuff tomorrow, i do want to hammer, but eye test says that we need to do a bunch a wagon modification. i think this is our only real shot to form a neighborhood with deliberation because tomorrow will be a free for all imo

[OkaPoka]

FakeGod- Oka Yuri Dusa
Bingle- Oka A50 Bng STD Yuri/2
T3- | Oka STD
OkaPoka- Oka Bng GL STD| A50
Save The Dragons- Bng | Oka GL/2 Dusa
Titus- A50 Bng/2 Yuri | STD/2
GuiltyLion- Oka A50 Bng STD Dusa
Dusa- Oka Bng STD | A50
DrippingGoofball- Yuri | STD Dusa
Yuri Gagarin- STD | Oka Bng Dusa
Almost50- A50 Bng STD | GL/2 Dusa
UNOwen- Bng/2

[OkaPoka]

FakeGod = 3
Bingle = 4.5
T3 = -2
OkaPoka = 3.5
Save The Dragons = -1.5
Titus = 2
GuiltyLion = 5
Dusa = 2
DrippingGoofball = -1
Yuri Gagarin = -2
Almost50 = 1.5
UNOwen = 0.5

[OkaPoka]

Wagon should be: Guiltylion, Bingle, OkaPoka, FakeGod, Titus, Dusa, A50

Wagon is: Almost50, Yuri Gagarin, Titus, Save The Dragons, Dusa, DrippingGoofball

So we need STD, DGB, Yuri to unvote and myself, bingle, fakegod, gl to vote. T3 @ L1 rn so waiting for unvotes?

[OkaPoka]

Yuri just consider unvoting because you could be a parity weak point and if ur town you will set up a cascading chain reaction

[OkaPoka]

T3 link me some games you feel represent your town game and some games that represents your scum

[OkaPoka]

not nearly that personal, but every person who is on a wagon means someone is off a wagon which is just something to be cognizant about. if we miss, and we haven't been making good neighborhoods, imaginably scum might be able to domino the game

[OkaPoka]

t3 im interested, you say that you are trying to play like your scumgame. is this how you push people as scum?

[OkaPoka]

are you actually this confident on these reads?

[OkaPoka]

Titus?

[OkaPoka]

Dannflor and Bell kills are kills I would make. It shows that scumteam has at least one member with a good amount of experience with the two of them. Its why Bingle can be scum, Titus can be scum, theoretically Dusa depending on alt, perhaps GL, maybe DGB, but I hope to lord its just Yuri so I don't need to go resorting half the playerlist.

[OkaPoka]

If Yuri is scum it explains the nightkill, if yuri is town what I'm saying is we might need to peer into the slots that are considered townie.

[OkaPoka]

That is the dilemma idk if im confusing i think ive been confusing this game

[OkaPoka]

Like imagine the list of people in this game, only some would kill dann and bell. Only one of us needs to be scum for that to happen and its can be handwaved with yuri scum, but if yuri isn't scum then well someone had to call the shots on the nightkills and that limits it to people that you think are obvtown.

[OkaPoka]

hope that yuri is scum

[OkaPoka]

that's e1 again, i want to hammer but i do want to give yuri a chance at responding to whether he'll consider leaving because he is a potential weak point for town in the sense that if he is town, if he dies, town has a good chance of domino effecting and losing control of multiple neighborhoods

[OkaPoka]

Well to be blunt I'd like it on the record that he doesn't care about being a parity weak point

[OkaPoka]

lol ok

[OkaPoka]

I KNEW GUILTY WAS THE HERO

[OkaPoka]

good mod nsg gg everyone nice setup

[OkaPoka]

before you guys see dead thread, did any alive players realize that this game could have been nearly unlosable if you found a final 3 to lim around to give town an extra shot (basically town only loses if the top 'utr' is scum)

[OkaPoka]

no dann u must die for the prophecy

[OkaPoka]

i think scum have to save their bus until the neighborhood phase where they are trying to puzzle together a parity break (if they can)

[OkaPoka]

mountainous nightless is rough in current site meta. esp in 17p game, wim matters a lot and currently i think scum wim is a lot lot lot lower than avg town wim

[OkaPoka]

this setup is quite poggers tho. imagine if this was a team mafia setup like oh my god look at that

[OkaPoka]

say poggers nsg SAY IT

[OkaPoka]

any mechanic where you can pick neighborhoods is going to lead to leashing tho. only way to 'fix' it is with randomness or no discussion which removes strategy. one small detail that wasn't ever covered this game because of how it plays is its possible to end any attempts at leashing neighborhoods if you made the lims too hard to feasibly achieve 1) in time and 2) with consensus

[OkaPoka]

this setup is very scumsided yeah, if town say only got 2/5 scum lims in the first phase which is still above ev btw, id guess town has a sub 10% chance of winning because parity breaks would be absolutely crazy. the world we got was basically near optimal for town to the point where leashing wouldn't have mattered

[OkaPoka]

plus dann was in one hood, bell was in hood, i was in one hood. hard to get a parity break if you are killing one hooders and that was forced because of early bussing basically

[OkaPoka]

Isnt being scumread as town the best compliment one can give

[OkaPoka]

i like that idea

creates a weird incentive not to lim obv scum and more incentive to leash everything

[OkaPoka]

team effort

[OkaPoka]

scumsided is good, probably necessary

[OkaPoka]

i dont hate u mena i liekd playing with you but we should probably never play an open setup together because i love leashing everything and uhh sounds like you hate it

[OkaPoka]

i think we've only played in the dance game and marathon games together i think. dance games i had less ability to restrict u since u were kinda too townie and marathons im just a deranged player

[OkaPoka]

unless u were on other top sekrit alts in which ymmv idk

[OkaPoka]

but yeah i think we have very different philosophies on neighborhoods. i view their existence as antithetical to town's win condition and you view them as a necessary source of fun

idk if we have maybe. i think it has to be alts tho because i feel like its only been the dance and marathon

[OkaPoka]

I kinda started trying to run more Secret Alt games this year to combat obvtown/scum meta tells, but I don't know if that really solves the issue because it seems to turn the game into "Figure out who person X is so that you can apply their obvtown meta to their play."

heh yeah... alt games are/were fun but they don't solve the meta issue, they do add another layer of mystery but the people you are trying to stop from meta'ing each other are going to be the people who figure out the the secret alts lol

lobby polarization is an interesting thing. id be ok if lobbies were polarized to have a bunch of good scum players as scum (because it makes teamwork that much smoother?) and as town because it makes the puzzle more interesting and intriguing to put together. polarizing towards town is definitely an issue that has been a thing for like 2-3 years now on this site and the thing is, people just don't enjoy playing town as much as scum generally. other than doing handwavy lets change the attitude of the site stuff, maybe its time to make creative setup related solutions to this problem? like allow scum to off themselves for an advantage so it doesnt feel so bad to be deadweight as scum, other than bussing because at this point i think bussing limbaits have pretty much a lot of its value since well we kinda all know each other's meta

[OkaPoka]

but as i say that im going to be honest i didn't get the gamma case at all and like 3 townies were supremely confident in gamma being obv so /shrug maybe towns are just too op

[OkaPoka]

omg u actually changed ur location

[OkaPoka]

mm, i personally think that 2-3 years is overstating it a little. completely anecdotally i would say that around the end of 2019 is when ms meta started getting townsided.

that proposal for "setup-related solutions" does sound fun, though. considering how i don't really have anything to do on-site now that this game is done, maybe i'll give that a little bit of thought and see if i can come up with something.

idk i quit the site around like 2015 and came back 2018 and i felt like there was definitely a shift in "how to play" and "responsibility" of town

i remember when i first joined, meta was less established. reserved more for certain trolly type archetypes to say they are nai rather than today using them as a divination rod to mark them as obvtown
additionalyl when i joined, the motto as town was just scumhunt and don't worry about being townread its not your problem while i felt after 2018, an honest critique of a townies' gameplay would be that they failed to townspew themselves. that'd be unthinkable! somehow the responsibility of reading people shifted from the hunters to the huntee. its probably more pronounced later tho

[OkaPoka]

setup related solutions so if u hate scum u can be like ok i only need to play scum for one phase and then i can commit seppuku, might be more motivating for scum if they only need to survive for a single/two phases to help their team

[OkaPoka]

maybe if there is a graph, scumplay remained steady up until 2019, while town play has been slowly increasing over time. and then scumplay hit a nosedive while townplay has continued to level up. i do agree that ms.net was scumsided maybe in 2018 because i remember reading about mu vs ms and how ms was the site for good scumplay and bad townplay.

[OkaPoka]

wtf lol