In post 688, Gypyx wrote:also kinda off topic but i wondered, would allowing the scumteam to assign the roles among them has room them has room for design in normals?
bumping this cuz it kinda got ignored but i think the idea has potential
In post 726, Dunnstral wrote:In my opinion that should stay in theme games, working with x player having y role should stay part of the normal experience
Normal games are about offering players a consistent experience though, and maybe it's a feature of normals, but i doubt many peoples are in for the "oh boy, can't wait to try to protect my teamate who happens to be important as scum !"
and Goon is the vanilla version of mafia, so it can't be enabled, just like you can't enable a serial killer
That would be a huge buff to scum and isn’t really a mechanic I see all that much.
A normal game is to give players a pretty standard Mafia experience without having to worry about bastard elements, off the wall design features etc… site meta should dictate what appears in normals and not vice versa
Also, what is NM doing? Worst play I’ve ever seen.
I can't remember the last N_M post that wasn't bland, unimaginative and lame. Some shitposters are at least somewhat funny. You are the epitomy of the type of poster that nobody would miss if you were to suddenly disappear. You never add anything of value.
I'm guessing you haven't read the game and probably never will? Why even sign up to play?
In post 733, Ythan wrote:You have notably interesting and clever thoughts on mafia mechanics (notably even in a forum about mafia) and I've thought so for a while now.
Thank you!
Your friendly neighborhood chef and baker. LONG LIVE THE CHEFHAT REBELLION!
gunbearer kinda is better for themes and (for non-Mafia) some bastard games
being able to modify the factional kill might be considered for Normalizing but I think proposing unique roles in the vein of Strongman for some more interesting factional kill combinations is better for a Normal as each combo can be looked at by the NRG
also add Strongman as a modifier (or just add Strong-Willed, which is imo better)
gunbearer as an all alignment modifier would probably never pass as normal since it alters the factional kill and redirector (which can do the same thing) is already an explicitly non-normal role
gunbearer/gunless could work as a mafia-only modifer though
In post 14, TemporalLich wrote:Defining some "Combined Goon X" combos here - which will also allow them to be on Serial Killers:
Enforcer - A role that roleblocks as it performs a factional kill (Combined Goon Roleblocker)
Squelcher - A role that rolestops as it performs a factional kill (Combined Goon Rolestopper)
Vaporizer - A role that uses alien ability as it performs a factional kill (Combined Goon Alien)
Wraith - A role that commutes as it performs a factional kill (Combined Goon Commuter)
It's interesting that these would elevate the concepts of elo/melo into actual "rules of the game" territory, rather than being derived concepts emerging from the rules as I have always considered them to be.
I'm worried that any attempt to define precisely when a game is in ELo/MeLo is likely to have annoyingly counterintuitive edge cases. For example it could occur that Mafia would choose to no-kill in a situation where any kill would win them the game because they are worried about some possible combination of roles getting them in trouble if they kill the wrong person (even though that combination of roles doesn't actually exist in the setup, they might think it does). In that case has the Mafia already won or not? We can give general guidelines but in the end it is always a moderator judgment call, which means that whether the game was in ELo/MeLo the day before is a judgment call too, which means that as it stands the operation of a role with a ELo/MeLo modifier is subjective.
(Also ELo and MeLo are usually descriptions of a day phase whereas most roles function at night)
“There are two kinds of people in this world: those who say, ‘There are two kinds of people in this world: those who say there are two kinds of people in this world,
I agree with your concerns and I think you would have to make these decisions during review if putting these modifiers into the game.
Edit: adding to the above, it could be made more concrete by making a general modifier of (this is a scuffed name) "x-differential" where the role disables when town - anti-town <= x. This gives the modifier clear use for both night and day phases imo and also resolves ambiguities wrt how the role would function in multiball.
In post 14, TemporalLich wrote:Defining some "Combined Goon X" combos here - which will also allow them to be on Serial Killers:
Enforcer - A role that roleblocks as it performs a factional kill (Combined Goon Roleblocker)
Squelcher - A role that rolestops as it performs a factional kill (Combined Goon Rolestopper)
Vaporizer - A role that uses alien ability as it performs a factional kill (Combined Goon Alien)
Wraith - A role that commutes as it performs a factional kill (Combined Goon Commuter)
I'd like to point out that any role which rolestops/aliens the target would, strictly speaking, prevent the kill from going through--so a Vaporizer/Squelcher could not actually kill their target when using the factional nightkill.
In post 14, TemporalLich wrote:Defining some "Combined Goon X" combos here - which will also allow them to be on Serial Killers:
Enforcer - A role that roleblocks as it performs a factional kill (Combined Goon Roleblocker)
Squelcher - A role that rolestops as it performs a factional kill (Combined Goon Rolestopper)
Vaporizer - A role that uses alien ability as it performs a factional kill (Combined Goon Alien)
Wraith - A role that commutes as it performs a factional kill (Combined Goon Commuter)
I'd like to point out that any role which rolestops/aliens the target would, strictly speaking, prevent the kill from going through--so a Vaporizer/Squelcher could not actually kill their target when using the factional nightkill.
The town equivalent would be Combined Vigilante Rolestopper and Combined Vigilante Alien - having rolestop prevent the kills from those roles would make those roles pointless and also make a Squelcher and a Vaporizer not Normal.
Perhaps Asceticizer (Rolestopper that doesn't stop kills) could be Normalized?
Not being able to combine the factional kill but being able to combine Vigilante leads to an asymmetry with weird kill roles - such are Town only. Strongman is an asymmetry in favor of factional kills, it can't be used as a modifier in Normal games so Strongman Vigilante isn't normal.
A Vaporizer that works like Mastina described (one that voids out the factional NK) I would probably describe as a Distracting Alien (
Distracting
is a modifier that means "Your faction may not use the factional kill if you use this ability, attempting to use this ability will reveal it in the Mafia PT")