Newbie 2073: Parfait (Over)

[shwinnebego]

I agree with Val that it is highly likely that at least one wolf didn't vote T3 after his weird mason claim gambit. Why would they? THey knew he would flip town, and they knew town was likely to quorum a townie yesterday.

I'm looking at General Wu, catboi, StD and Roden as a crew with 1-2 wolves in it.

Of these, others seem to want to quorum General Wu.

I would rank these folks in order of quorum desirability as:

StD - not helping town much despite having a chill playstyle that I dig
Wu - the popular pick and, like I mentioned earlier, I genuinely do think it's odd how quick votes melted off of him. He says it is not sus that this happened, but a wolf Wu would of course say that
catboi - went to some lengths to not vote T3

-----------

Me, Val, and Meg are the only T3 voters left. It would surprise me a lot if there were two wolves on T3 (i.e,, Val and Meg - in other words I consider Val/Meg to be a highly unlikely wolf team, to the degree that if one flips wolf I would basically clear the other as Town in my head)

But I think neither Meg nor Val are a top quorum choice for today in terms of info, and instead we oughtta quorum one of the folks that did not vote T3 (as Val suggests)

Of these, my souldread is StD but I'd happily shift to Wu if that's where we're going
VOTE: SaveTheDragons

[shwinnebego]

oops, forgot Roden - Roden has sorta gone in one ear and out the other but would be the bottom of my picks for todays quorum among the 4 t3 voters, but gonna try to watch their play more today

[shwinnebego]

if someone less lazy than me wants to link to the posts where each of the t3 voters placed their t3 vote (and shared key justifications for 'em) that could be pretty helpful

[Val89]

There were 5 T3 voters, and catboi was one of them. If I recall, he was first to join me on the wagon. I think you are just plain wrong when you say catboi went to some lengths to avoid a T3 vote.

In any case i didn't say that I thought scum didn't vote T3 after the Mason claim - that can't be what I was saying, can it, because you voted T3 and you are in my pool of suspicion. I said I found it suspicious that people were townreading or showing that they were considering the possibility that T3 was still town after everything he did, which smelt like TMI.

It's a stuble distinction, but an important one, because what I actually said puts you squarely in the crosshairs, and what you misrepresentated me as saying clears you, and I'm wondering if that was the intent...

[Val89]

Rereading, I could have phrased that better. It is true that catboi unvoted after the Mason fake claim, and wasn't voting T3 at the time the hammer fell, but he certainly did vote T3 in a serious manner.

You might reasonably put forward the arguement that catboi joining the wagon before the fake claim, and then jumping off it when the fakeclaim came might be somehow suspicious, and put forward you reasons as to why, but to say catboi avoided voting T3 is just factually incorrect.

[GeneralWu]

I don't find catboi suspicious.

[GeneralWu]

StD - not helping town much despite having a chill playstyle that I dig
Wu - the popular pick and, like I mentioned earlier, I genuinely do think it's odd how quick votes melted off of him. He says it is not sus that this happened, but a wolf Wu would of course say that
catboi - went to some lengths to not vote T3

I think StD's playstyle just makes him harder to read. It's not necessarily scummy.

It's not valid to call me suspicious just because I got to E-1 and people unvoted me. How does that make me suspicious anyway?

[GeneralWu]

VOTE: SavetheDragons

I dislike eliminating shwinniebego here for a few reasons.
1. The first is that I find it likely that if they are a town, they are probably a PR ( or doing some WIFOM thing). I would not want to out them if they are so.
2. I think that their flip doesn't give us much information. Either they are a town that has very much struggled adapting to the meta on this site, or they flip scum, which would be a very attractive bus on a new player. Either way we don't learn much about other players.
3. I honestly don't scumread them that much, they seem too apart from the norm of mafia games like this, so I think their behavior is NAI.
4. I feel that their input will generate discussion that could end up being useful to town.

Instead I feel like StD is a better vote, they overall don't provide much to town.

Shwinniebego, you should post your input if you feel like you need to say something, it will both help you get better and may help town.

I would like StD to post their reads and contribute a bit more substance. It doesn't really matter if you can't post often, but at least try to post something that is useful when you do.

And T3 appears to be avoiding confronting the accusation made at him by Val89, although the accusation doesn't hold a whole lot of weight imo.

I still find it strange how Meg said that shwinnie might be able to "generate discussion that could end up being useful to town", then shwinnie immediately changed his playstyle.

I will cast the hammer tomorrow if noone has any objections, if you do, say it now. (And i know you have questions but its late for me RN and I don't want to get into it tonight or on mobile) -_('-')_- I also don't find it relevant if I get nked, and if i don't i can always discuss on day 2.

Also, I reread the end of day 1 and I found this post, which seems odd because Meg wants to hammer despite saying "I know you have questions".

[Save The Dragons]

lol t3 wtf

[Save The Dragons]

I don't find catboi suspicious.

why

[GeneralWu]

I don't find catboi suspicious.

why

I already said this.
He actively tries to find scum. When shwinnie threatened to hammer me out of boredom, he catboi unvoted me. If catboi were scum, he could have just kept his vote on me and let shwinnie hammer. The only likely case in which catboi would unvote me as scum is if shwinnie is also scum. However, I think this is unlikely because catboi contributes significantly and actively helps the town.

[Val89]

The only likely case in which catboi would unvote me as scum is if shwinnie is also scum.

You are going to have to talk me through your logic on this one, because I don't see how that works.

[Roden]

oops, forgot Roden - Roden has sorta gone in one ear and out the other but would be the bottom of my picks for todays quorum among the 4 t3 voters, but gonna try to watch their play more today

Appreciate it, but I'm not liking your line of logic.

I agree with Val that it is highly likely that at least one wolf didn't vote T3 after his weird mason claim gambit. Why would they? THey knew he would flip town, and they knew town was likely to quorum a townie yesterday.

I'm looking at General Wu, catboi, StD and Roden as a crew with 1-2 wolves in it.

Of these, others seem to want to quorum General Wu.

I would rank these folks in order of quorum desirability as:

StD - not helping town much despite having a chill playstyle that I dig
Wu - the popular pick and, like I mentioned earlier, I genuinely do think it's odd how quick votes melted off of him. He says it is not sus that this happened, but a wolf Wu would of course say that
catboi - went to some lengths to not vote T3

-----------

Me, Val, and Meg are the only T3 voters left. It would surprise me a lot if there were two wolves on T3 (i.e,, Val and Meg - in other words I consider Val/Meg to be a highly unlikely wolf team, to the degree that if one flips wolf I would basically clear the other as Town in my head)

But I think neither Meg nor Val are a top quorum choice for today in terms of info, and instead we oughtta quorum one of the folks that did not vote T3 (as Val suggests)

Of these, my souldread is StD but I'd happily shift to Wu if that's where we're going
VOTE: SaveTheDragons

This reads like classic "town by association" pocketing. I know because I've done this in past scum games. You've put yourself in a town block that has zero confirmed townies and your only justification for doing so is that they voted T3 and that anyone who didn't might've TMI'd they knew he'd be town. The problem is you're including Meg even though all they did was hammer, which I offered to do as well. Are you saying if I hammered first then I would be in the town block and Meg would look suspicious? Because that's the only thing I can infer from your thought process here.

What I think is that it didn't actually matter to you who voted T3, as long as you can have consensus around those who did that the voters should be clear, then it's all fine to you.

Val and Meg - in other words I consider Val/Meg to be a highly unlikely wolf team, to the degree that if one flips wolf I would basically clear the other as Town in my head

This in particular pings me, because in what world are these two ever getting flipped if they + you are the town block?

[GeneralWu]

The only likely case in which catboi would unvote me as scum is if shwinnie is also scum.

You are going to have to talk me through your logic on this one, because I don't see how that works.

Assuming catboi and shwinnie are both scum:
Catboi doesn't unvote me when shwinnie threatens to hammer. I get hammered and I flip town. People now get suspicious of shwinnie because he hammered a townie for no reason.

[Roden]

I don't find catboi suspicious.

why

I already said this.
He actively tries to find scum. When shwinnie threatened to hammer me out of boredom, he catboi unvoted me. If catboi were scum, he could have just kept his vote on me and let shwinnie hammer. The only likely case in which catboi would unvote me as scum is if shwinnie is also scum. However, I think this is unlikely because catboi contributes significantly and actively helps the town.

Scum can do exactly that to get free town points and pocket somebody who's life in the game was hanging by a thread. It isn't an uncommon scum tactic at all.

[catboi]

I am actively appalled at T3 pulling a stunt like that in a newbie game. I don't have deeper thoughts on the game right now unfortunately, my head is in disarray.

[GeneralWu]

I don't find catboi suspicious.

why

I already said this.
He actively tries to find scum. When shwinnie threatened to hammer me out of boredom, he catboi unvoted me. If catboi were scum, he could have just kept his vote on me and let shwinnie hammer. The only likely case in which catboi would unvote me as scum is if shwinnie is also scum. However, I think this is unlikely because catboi contributes significantly and actively helps the town.

Scum can do exactly that to get free town points and pocket somebody who's life in the game was hanging by a thread. It isn't an uncommon scum tactic at all.

But at that time, there was still plenty of time left in Day 1. If we assume catboi was scum and shwinnie was town, catboi could have significantly cut town's discussion time and thrown shade on shwinnie by keeping his vote on me and letting shwinnie hammer.

[catboi]

The only likely case in which catboi would unvote me as scum is if shwinnie is also scum.

You are going to have to talk me through your logic on this one, because I don't see how that works.

Assuming catboi and shwinnie are both scum:
Catboi doesn't unvote me when shwinnie threatens to hammer. I get hammered and I flip town. People now get suspicious of shwinnie because he hammered a townie for no reason.

You know, while I think it's a risky strategy, I probably encourage my partner to hammer in a newbie game if there's an opportunity because a free elimination with a shortened day is pro-scum and in a newbie game it can possibly be spun with the excuse of not understanding how the game is played on this site.

[Roden]

The only likely case in which catboi would unvote me as scum is if shwinnie is also scum.

You are going to have to talk me through your logic on this one, because I don't see how that works.

Assuming catboi and shwinnie are both scum:
Catboi doesn't unvote me when shwinnie threatens to hammer. I get hammered and I flip town. People now get suspicious of shwinnie because he hammered a townie for no reason.

But at that time, there was still plenty of time left in Day 1. If we assume catboi was scum and shwinnie was town, catboi could have significantly cut town's discussion time and thrown shade on shwinnie by keeping his vote on me and letting shwinnie hammer.

Early Day 1 wagons almost never happen exactly because of that. Shwin was never going to actually hammer you there or he would quite literally just be scum claiming or town throwing. Anyone who'd do something like that would always be a policy elim regardless of what your alignment would've turned out to be.

Say you flip town. Shwin now looks like obvscum and bar a miracle or PR claim, he is getting voted out.

Say you flip scum. Shwin now looks like he TMI'd that he knew you were scum and should 100% be the next flip, if not investigated by a PR during the Night phase. In this case we have Masons but scum doesn't know that, so the risk isn't worth it.

[GeneralWu]

Also, question: what do we do about the other mason?

[catboi]

i guess it's just T3 here? i don't really see a good reason why town!T3 claims mason tbh.

Actually, here's a take: this is a post coming from someone who knows T3 will flip town.

VOTE: Save the Dragons

[GeneralWu]

i guess it's just T3 here? i don't really see a good reason why town!T3 claims mason tbh.

Actually, here's a take: this is a post coming from someone who knows T3 will flip town.

VOTE: Save the Dragons

How come?

[catboi]

Also, question: what do we do about the other mason?

The other mason should not out today. No one should speculate about who the other mason is. If you have an idea of who it is, you should not say so and try to avoid even hinting at it. If we mis-eliminate today, the other mason should claim if they're alive on day 3 as it'll be ELO. If we get scum, they can remain hidden still, in my opinion.

[catboi]

i guess it's just T3 here? i don't really see a good reason why town!T3 claims mason tbh.

Actually, here's a take: this is a post coming from someone who knows T3 will flip town.

VOTE: Save the Dragons

How come?

The language is almost too passive, it doesn't have the feeling I and other people did where we really jumped on T3 for fakeclaiming, it's kind of quizzical in the "oh huh why is he doing this", like he knows T3 isn't scum but has to push him anyway.

[catboi]

(unrelated to anything, but I'm sad nav died n1. I was looking forawrd to playing with them and they got cut off short without ever being able to really get into the game)