[MT2225] Chrono Trigger Chronicles - The Rise/Fall of Yakra

[Lukewarm]

Which is that you have to delve into the reasons for every player being town and delve into the reasons for every player being scum. If a player has absolutely no reason to be scum, then you aren't being critical enough in your evaluation/thinking. Even a player who you can soulread, have strong meta on, have very very strong reasons to be town, isn't immune to this--if you can't see the reasons for that player possibly being scum, you've made a grave mistake, even if the read you have is 200% correct.

The point of this isn't so much to have zero townreads and to scumread everyone, but to engage in more thorough critical thinking, that both gets rid of your biases, gets rid of your preconceived notions, and forces you to analyze more deeply and thoroughly every slot in the game and then weigh them on a scale. So that player who you can soulread and have strong meta on and has strong reasons to be town? After you can see the reasons for that player to possibly be scum, you then dismantle the reasons for why they could possibly be scum by recognizing how weak those reasons are, how unlikely those reasons are, and reestablish how strong the reasons for them to be town are, to solidify them as a slot you should never ever eliminate, at the top of your tierlist from towniest to scumiest.

This feels gross to me.

Like maybe very true at Elo, where we are right now, this looks like trying to enlarge the miselim pool

[Lukewarm]

I don't want the mass claim to stall just because mastina wants to get fully caught up first. How do we feel about just skipping to someone else. and starting the popcorn there?

[Lukewarm]

I don't want the mass claim to stall just because mastina wants to get fully caught up first. How do we feel about just skipping to someone else. and starting the popcorn there?

Nah.

Could be a ploy to dodge.

I say we do this until she claims:

VOTE: mastina

She already claimed VT, but is holding off choosing who will claim next

[Lukewarm]

I'm a Knight of Guardia

[Lukewarm]

House, you already claimed VT. Lets pretend the popcorn started with you. Point at someone, and ask them to claim, and we can go from there

[Lukewarm]

as for who we pick for popcorn, since mom isn't here, I'll let lukewarm pick for us.

Why did we even do popcorn instead of me just making a list lmao.

Dwlee should go next

[Lukewarm]

as for who we pick for popcorn, since mom isn't here, I'll let lukewarm pick for us.

Why did we even do popcorn instead of me just making a list lmao.

Dwlee should go next

you suggested popcorn. I wanted to do list?

Correct, and so far the popcorn has gone

-Masitina, who refused to choose the next person
-You, who wanted me to choose the next person.

We have not actually been popcorning lol

But what ever. If I am making the list, at this point it would be

Dwlee
Roden
House

(and anyone who would rather I got before the next person on the list, is welcome to interject me)

[Lukewarm]

But what ever. If I am making the list, at this point it would be

Dwlee
Mara
Roden
House

(and anyone who would rather I got before the next person on the list, is welcome to interject me)

[Lukewarm]

I am a VT.

Roden you're up

[Lukewarm]

Oh, and house, I am including you at the end, because I would like confirmation on whether you got an invention or not

[Lukewarm]

Well I for one hoped Frog would out, so that we can narrow the PoE. But that is not the world we live in. Let me release my draft from earlier

[Lukewarm]

I am leaning pretty strong into the idea that the scum team was floating spekkio as a potential fake claim. Followed up by their fake claims of Melchior and Gaspar

The opening post implied we had 7 VTs and three PRs who were likely Crono Lucca and Frog. I don't think it makes any sense for somebody to be Informed that Frog is in the game when that's already implied by the fact that Frog fights Yakra in the video game.

It also doesn't make any sense for Gaspar or Spekkio to be here since they don't get introduced until AFTER the boss fight. And why the hell would Cyrus be in the game when in the video game he'd already died? Cyrus has nothing to do with the Yakra boss fight at all.

This isn't a general Chrono Trigger themed game, it's specifically about the Yakra arc. T3 is just trying to bait Frog into outting themself.

I'm Melchior and my neighbor is Lukewarm.

This is scum.

Melchior is not connected to the Yakra battle. He repairs Masamune for Frog AFTER the battle.

Roden and house would never have let any of those ideas be floated, much less ALL THREE. And their "these claims make no sense" were pretty rapid after the claims as well.

So, imo, we are almost in auto win, depending on who ended up being Frog. We have 3 shots, and 4 suspects (3 if Frog is outside of Roden + House)

With mastina - Marashu - Angel Warriors - Dwlee99

I am probably sitting with a shoot order of something like (making the exception for who ever claimed frog)

Mastina
Dwlee
AW
Mara

Obviously, if any of Me/House/Roden make it to Elo, this should be thrown out the window. But I think that all 3 of us should be in "not eliminated at any point before elo"

[Lukewarm]

Mastina
Dwlee
AW
Mara

I don't get why you would even put Mara in that list.

You realize that, even if one of the ones above mara claimed frog, that would put me at shooting mara if they were still alive at elo right? If we get to elo, and mara is alive, yeah. I'm looking at them

[Lukewarm]

In all honesty, Luke is climbing in suspicion with his inability or unwillingness to say why AW is more likely town than Mara, the single greatest reason Cyrus got caught out when he wasn't being pressured.

I did not say this?

My shoot list was mastina > dwlee > AW > Mara Which keeps mara out of the people I am looking at until elo

The only people I had more likely to be town were you and roden

[Lukewarm]

It really feels like everyone is leaning between mastina and dwlee. If it is someone else, then this game will be a very stressful Elo

VOTE: mastina

[Lukewarm]

It really feels like everyone is leaning between mastina and dwlee. If it is someone else, then this game will be a very stressful Elo

VOTE: mastina

why the person catching up over the person who has been here the entire game and still has no clue who he suspects?

Which is that you have to delve into the reasons for every player being town and delve into the reasons for every player being scum. If a player has absolutely no reason to be scum, then you aren't being critical enough in your evaluation/thinking. Even a player who you can soulread, have strong meta on, have very very strong reasons to be town, isn't immune to this--if you can't see the reasons for that player possibly being scum, you've made a grave mistake, even if the read you have is 200% correct.

The point of this isn't so much to have zero townreads and to scumread everyone, but to engage in more thorough critical thinking, that both gets rid of your biases, gets rid of your preconceived notions, and forces you to analyze more deeply and thoroughly every slot in the game and then weigh them on a scale. So that player who you can soulread and have strong meta on and has strong reasons to be town? After you can see the reasons for that player to possibly be scum, you then dismantle the reasons for why they could possibly be scum by recognizing how weak those reasons are, how unlikely those reasons are, and reestablish how strong the reasons for them to be town are, to solidify them as a slot you should never ever eliminate, at the top of your tierlist from towniest to scumiest.

This feels gross to me.

Like maybe very true at Elo, where we are right now, this looks like trying to enlarge the miselim pool

Luke. There’s a very good reason for why I said I believed Kyouko on Guillo, but unless I have to I don’t want to have to get into it. Just know you’re barking up the wrong fucking tree.

VOTE: Guillotina
Was half-tempted to vote Roden but I really think this is where people should be voting.

VOTE: Guillo
Okay I guess I'm kind of bored with Roden anyway so I'm fine seeing where this goes.

Here is where I saw it initially. I wasn't going to loudly claim a cop soft. I just joined the wagon silently.

[Lukewarm]

In all honesty, Luke is climbing in suspicion with his inability or unwillingness to say why AW is more likely town than Mara, the single greatest reason Cyrus got caught out when he wasn't being pressured.

I did not say this?

My shoot list was mastina > dwlee > AW > Mara Which keeps mara out of the people I am looking at until elo

The only people I had more likely to be town were you and roden

In what world does Mara sell out their buddy when nobody is even looking at them as scum?

Mara should be more locktown to anyone else in the game than Roden or I.

Then I guess you and I think about the game differently.

I built up a town read on you all game. I built up a town read on Roden after looking hard over his iso, having repeated interactions with him, and doing a meta dive on him.

Mara was very much sitting at a null read for like 75% of the game, and the only thing that skews them town is pointing out cop soft. Which yes, spewed them town, and in my mind bought them all the way to elo, but does not plant them automatically over my strongest town reads.

[Lukewarm]

Thanks everyone for playing, this got broken a little easier than I expected with the adventurous claims from scum.

I have learned a few lessons from this, and will be adapting for the future.

First, Thanks for modding!

I said this a few times, but the only reason that the claims broke it was because the scum team was not very aware of the flavor. I think that the only change you really needed to make was to give them a list of flavor appropriate flavor claims. Like 1751

[Lukewarm]

One of you is practically a psychic for guessing what went on in the scum PT, only it was worse than you'd think.

The only guess I remember was me saying that spekkio might have been a you guys sandboxing a fake claim?

[Lukewarm]

Sorry I'm not terribly good as town. GG everyone, it was fun, and thanks to LavosCore for modding!

PEdit - I didn't see that, you're right. And by the time I started wondering if you were RB, it really wouldn't have helped town in case we had another role that was investigative. I honestly thought Titus was a PR who was faking not understanding the VT PM that was posted.

You were great! you got Cyrus killed when he might have slipped through otherwise.

Cyrus was on my to do list for his gaspard claim, but I was too caught up in the T3 claim at the time

[Lukewarm]

I was frog!

Wait? Did T3 have to target you to give you your vig shot?

How did he know?

@T3

[Lukewarm]

Hey Roden, I was town. Your Meta was bad

[Lukewarm]

No, t3 just enabled it and I chose to shoot Titus cause he wanted that in thread.

Then.... why was he trying to get you to out?

[Lukewarm]

I think the worst paranoia was on house at the end but there was some paranoia on mastina as well. mom and I were talking about her last posts like mm they are very null feeling, not towny.

It felt like there was lots of unwarranted paranoia about me this game.

Your paranoia on me, beause I scum read you when you town read me

Roden's paranoia because I hadn't tunneled anyone yet - which turned to town when Cyrus scumclaimed, but then he went right back to paranoia.

House had some major paranoia on me too. Like, he just kept flipping back to it. He thought I might be scum because I tied him up in the Robert fake claim... which would have spewed him town????? Or, like maybe I am scum because I was in the middle of a 1v1 with Roden when he started pushing T3? Or possibly, I was scum because I thought that HE, HOUSE, was townier then Mara--- how dare I?

Mara paranoid that I assumed I would be in Elo, which... I was not in the top 2 town read players, AND I was not in the top 2 scum read players. That means I would have had the unpleasant time of being in Elo were we to make it that far.

[Lukewarm]

So how the powers activated were that Crono Lucca and Frog didn't have a clue who the others were.

Crono would just submit "Activate Lucca/Frog" and I would inform them that their Dual Tech/Vig shots had been activated. The reason for 2 deadlines was because Crono had the first deadline to submit an action by, it was also why I have a rule about submitting night actions from the half way mark.

Vig being activated also disabled the single tech abilities - triple tech gives nobody a choice.

This also means that they can target each other. and potentially kill Crono too (which would be flavoured as a misfire)
Triple tech would just silently fail too, so Crono would know they'd targetted Lucca or Frog, but nobody else would.

So T3 was role fishing for frog go absolutely no reason?? lmao

[Lukewarm]

I think the worst paranoia was on house at the end but there was some paranoia on mastina as well. mom and I were talking about her last posts like mm they are very null feeling, not towny.

It felt like there was lots of unwarranted paranoia about me this game.

Your paranoia on me, beause I scum read you when you town read me

Roden's paranoia because I hadn't tunneled anyone yet - which turned to town when Cyrus scumclaimed, but then he went right back to paranoia.

House had some major paranoia on me too. Like, he just kept flipping back to it. He thought I might be scum because I tied him up in the Robert fake claim... which would have spewed him town????? Or, like maybe I am scum because I was in the middle of a 1v1 with Roden when he started pushing T3? Or possibly, I was scum because I thought that HE, HOUSE, was townier then Mara--- how dare I?

Mara paranoid that I assumed I would be in Elo, which... I was not in the top 2 town read players, AND I was not in the top 2 scum read players. That means I would have had the unpleasant time of being in Elo were we to make it that far.

All that being said, my 19 game streak LIVES ON!!

[Lukewarm]

All that being said, my

19

16 game streak LIVES ON!!

[Lukewarm]

I was frog!

You know. This makes more sense why you believed T3's claim. He was the first person to mention mana.

[Lukewarm]

I was frog!

You know. This makes more sense why you believed T3's claim. He was the first person to mention mana.

He also claimed the flavor that I had in my role PM of the names, and I had thought I protected him from the night kill. So people were right that I had some TMI on him.

That was me. I just never considered you had tmi because you were frog, and it just added to my worry that you were scum x.x

[Lukewarm]

Oh thank god I didn't throw, that's all I can ask for.

GG everyone! I feel kinda bad that we broke the game a bit with flavor but man...those fake claims just weren't it. Nice job to Dwlee though for softing as hard as they did and still never getting caught.

He did some decent "I'm definitely not frog" posting as well lol

I have a guess for who it is I think

Unrelated
UNVOTE:

[Lukewarm]

What stuck out to me was that

you wanted me gone as a policy elim

but then you back tracked and town leaned me when I confronted you on it. It felt like an odd string of reactions, like you were trying to protect a scum buddy from getting wagon'd since there were a few popular choices, but then got wary because

you realized I self voted for a legitimate reason

.

I never wanted you as a policy elim. I wanted you to stop self voting.

So he is either a townie who should be policy voted for not playing to win, or he is scum trying to make a play.

Either way, I am happy to vote him as long as his self vote is in place

.

I had you as a town read day 1. Day 2, I thought that you had been a bit worse, so pushed you down closer to null. (Then I policy voted you). Then you push on me looked like shit, and I started entertaining the idea that you really were scum. Then when I did meta on you, it put you back to town.

The second bolded part never happened. I am still frustrated that you self voted, and this line in particular pissed me off

Nora I'd literally rather spite you and get us both voted out if you're going to go out of your way to throw this game for town. I want to go to the dead PT, see your confirmed alignment, and laugh as you crumble Day 3.

[Lukewarm]

I guess the thing that actually confused me this game, was that you and house seemed to not reconsider prior thoughts given new information.

House was suspicious that I pitted his claim against Roberts claim. Which, sure. Be suspicious of that PRE flip. But once Robert flipped scum, that stops making sense for scum!Luke to do. Linking him there actually just means I am spewing House town.

You were both suspicious that I "asked for cred" on T3 (which was meant to be a joke btw) but then did not come back once T3 flipped town, and think wait. Scum luke would not have done that.

Also, scum luke is never going to be out actively asking for cred. Instead, I would be subtle and Agree with House's push, and link back my own stuff, and then vote T3. Show that I spotted it, instead of ASKING house for it lmao

[Lukewarm]

That being said, I was never actually all that worried that I was going to get miselimed at any point prior to Elo, so I was just kinda tucking things like that away incase we ever got there. I think that this was a decently easy game to town case me in lol

[Lukewarm]

What stuck out to me was that

you wanted me gone as a policy elim

but then you back tracked and town leaned me when I confronted you on it. It felt like an odd string of reactions, like you were trying to protect a scum buddy from getting wagon'd since there were a few popular choices, but then got wary because

you realized I self voted for a legitimate reason

.

I never wanted you as a policy elim. I wanted you to stop self voting.

So he is either a townie who should be policy voted for not playing to win, or he is scum trying to make a play.

Either way, I am happy to vote him as long as his self vote is in place

.

I had you as a town read day 1. Day 2, I thought that you had been a bit worse, so pushed you down closer to null. (Then I policy voted you). Then you push on me looked like shit, and I started entertaining the idea that you really were scum. Then when I did meta on you, it put you back to town.

The second bolded part never happened. I am still frustrated that you self voted, and this line in particular pissed me off

Nora I'd literally rather spite you and get us both voted out if you're going to go out of your way to throw this game for town. I want to go to the dead PT, see your confirmed alignment, and laugh as you crumble Day 3.

A policy vote kinda heavily implies a policy elim, and I think if you had tried to explain it that way in-game I might've actually tunneled you for it. Though tbh if you'd articulated your emotional response I would've likely town read you for it instead.

If you had not stopped self voting prior to you getting eliminated, then I would have not felt bad about policy eliming you.

But I explicitly said that if you stopped voting yourself, that my policy vote would go away. So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Lukewarm]

A policy vote kinda heavily implies a policy elim, and I think if you had tried to explain it that way in-game I might've actually tunneled you for it. Though tbh if you'd articulated your emotional response I would've likely town read you for it instead.

I did not have an very strong emotional response

I saw you self vote, and saw that post about being willing to throw the game, and I thought "well that's fucked up, he would throw a team game, tanking the rest of his team.. but I am sure that he will unvote once he cools off"

Then you didn't...

Then I thought, "I don't want to play with a person who will be throwing a game this way while calm. I am going to vote him until he stops self voting." It looked like you were not playing to your win condition, which is against site rules, so it was a policy vote.

And to be clear. If you post anything similar to that post in a future game, I will vote you for it all over again.

Like I said, you were not even my biggest scum read when I first voted you (or a scum read at all tbh), but my thoughts on your alignment do not matter on what I would consider a policy vote.

[Lukewarm]

Like I said, once we got to seven players it just became a point of who looked the least townie in a group of people who looked really town. It wasn't that I wasn't reconsidering prior information, to me it was "how do we have a group of people so blatantly town?", but then the answer was just that one person never had a chance to look scummy.

Yeah. The final day was strange. No one seemed like scum, and it was more like sorting by strength of Null to Town

[Lukewarm]

Yeah I've learned my lesson around flavour, people will want safeclaim despite the VT PM being there and clear.

Also that's 6 preins o.o

I think that another issue was 100% of town roles functioning off of mana, and there being no way for the scum team to know that. The simple solution without just telling them would be to give them a role that also functioned on mana.

[Lukewarm]

Hello

[Lukewarm]

@ Robert

I just read the scum chat, and I ended up feeling like I wanted to write a rambley wall that may or may not help you. Both the get better and to enjoy your games more. Let's see how it goes!

Basically, I get the feeling that you approach games with a (getting town read = winning = having fun) mindset. And I think that my biggest piece of advise to you is to throw that mindset in the trash.

Getting town read does not win games. As either alignment. It can help, sometimes, but that is not the game. As scum, your win condition this game was essentially "get 3 miselims before the town gets 3 correct elims." PR stuff can adjust the numbers, but that is the general idea. 3 miselims. That is how you win. You don't have to be town read for that, and you don't need to survive to the end of the game for that. So it is important to keep the end goal in mind.

Being widely town read can actually make that harder. If you are the #1 most town read slot in the game, over time, people are gonna start asking why the scum team never killed you.

I feel like, because you did not have that mindset, it tanked your morale this game. Looking through the scum chat, end of day 1 you seemed more focused on the scum reads on you then the fact that scum won day 1! At the end of day 1, if your mindset is focused on "achieve 3 miselims" then you could have been over the moon at the end of the day. " I got scum read, but we STILL managed to snag a miselim!! 2 more of those and we win!"

[Lukewarm]

Here is a little anecdote on why being town read is not all that it is cracked up to be. In my first scum game on site, a newbie game, I was the most widely town read player at the end of day 1, and my partner was not town read by anyone in the entire player list. He was not the scummiest scum in most peoples lists, but he was squarely in the poe of every single player. That game there was another player that for ran up day 1, and claimed tracker, so the night kill went somewhere else.

I was a role blocker that game, and decided that since I was so widely town read, that I should multitask. Roleblock the tracker, and be the one who did the night kill hunting for a protective pr somewhere else. Well, it turned out that I was so widely town read that a jailkeeper targeted me to try and save me from the night kill. -- so because I was so widely town read, there was no night kill night 1 AND the claimed tracker got a result... AND that is a mechanical guilty on me (convoluted guilty, but a guilty none the less. Once the tracker and the jailkeeper claim, in a newbie game they knew the scum team have a role blocker. Since the tracker got a result, that means that the role blocker did not block the claimed tracker. Ie, I was not saved by the jailkeeper. I was stopped by them)

So to recap, because I was town read: there was no night kill. The tracker got a result. And the town got a mechanical guilty result on me might 1.

Yikes.

The wild part though? My partner, who NO ONE town read? He won that game in Elo!

[Lukewarm]

Side note, if you have multiple partners, treat them wildly differently. If partner 1 is in your null reads, and partner 2 is your number 1 strongest town read, then it will be harder to find your last partner after your first one flips. )Compared to camping both in your null reads, or both in your town leans, ECT, ECT

[Lukewarm]

Finally, I would say, start setting different goals for yourself, outside of "get town read"

If you live through day 1, CELEBRATE THAT AS A VICTORY. You met that goal.

If after you die, ANY player says "I just looked over Roberts iso, and I think [townie] could be his partner" CELEBRATE THAT AS A VICTORY. you met a new goal.

If after you die, ANY player says " I looked back over Roberts iso, and it really does not look like him and [scum] could be partners" CELEBRATE THAT AS A VICTORY. You met that goal

This can do wonders for upping your morale and motivation!