White flag #824 game over

[GuiltyLion]

NSG when are you going to post your final point?

It's interesting you came to the opposite conclusion re:MC's meta, ultimately yeah I guess I have been putting a lot of stock in one post but I do think that post notably eclipsed anything I saw in many of his past scumgames

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

me too

I miss kanna

[northsidegal]

NSG when are you going to post your final point?

been doing the research to really type it up, i think it's a little gilding the lily at this point considering murdercat is probably already assuredly today's elim, but maybe it's worthwhile anyways.

[Dwlee99]

Infinity did you stop reading TTTT when you died? Pooky used a ton of AtE there, even when the game was effectively decided.

[GuiltyLion]

I don't need like a super comprehensive write up if that's taking too much effort I'm just curious what it is

to be frank the reason I'm asking is cause I don't really scumread any of the main drivers of this MC wagon and my suspect pool currently feels a little narrow so I'm trying to figure out if I'm townreading scum somewhere on this wagon or if I'm just wrong on MC and it'd help me to understand if you have more against him beyond a meta read / his suggestion to lim you - which I do agree was probably the worst thing he's posted

[Infinity 324]

cause he was pissed that clidd replaced out and they were likely to win if he didn't (correct me if i'm wrong pooky)

i'm not saying the ate has to serve a game purpose he just has to be mad about

something

[GuiltyLion]

I could buy seeing a 70% scum winrate and thinking that means a good scumgame, but it was definitely lazy/disingenuous to assert that makes you a good elimination in lieu of like actually digging in at all to see what your scumgame looks like

[Dwlee99]

cause he was pissed that clidd replaced out and they were likely to win if he didn't (correct me if i'm wrong pooky)

i'm not saying the ate has to serve a game purpose he just has to be mad about

something

Scum!Pooky here could be annoyed his mislim was falling through. I just think it's weird you think the ate here is beyond scum!Pooky.

[Infinity 324]

i guess my disagreement with nsg there is that i disagree that's there's a point where it stops being lazy and starts being scummy; i think it just becomes very lazy.

pedit: pooky shouldn't care about that as long as he gets a town elim?

[Infinity 324]

"beyond" is not the word i would use but it doesn't seem like the type of situation where he would use it

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Scum!Pooky here could be annoyed his mislim was falling through. I just think it's weird you think the ate here is beyond scum!Pooky.

why wouldn't I just elim you instead of going for murdercat then

[Dwlee99]

But if MC is town, Pooky actually has a ton of reason to want him specifically gone because he will probably be able to get a good solve later. From what was linked earlier, scum!pooky pushed MC in their last game with scum! pooky and town!MC

[Dwlee99]

@pooky see above

[Dwlee99]

And I mean you also did vote me...

[GuiltyLion]

cause he was pissed that clidd replaced out and they were likely to win if he didn't (correct me if i'm wrong pooky)

i'm not saying the ate has to serve a game purpose he just has to be mad about

something

Scum!Pooky here could be annoyed his mislim was falling through. I just think it's weird you think the ate here is beyond scum!Pooky.

do you think this could be scum!Infinity TMI townreading a town!Pooky or do you think scum!Pooky or what? I'm not understanding why the sudden pushback here or how it fits into your read of the game

[Gamma Emerald]

But if MC is town, Pooky actually has a ton of reason to want him specifically gone because he will probably be able to get a good solve later. From what was linked earlier, scum!pooky pushed MC in their last game with scum! pooky and town!MC

yeah MCat solved both scum!pooky and scum!NM correctly in mini 2170 and got mislimmed D1

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

And I mean you also did vote me...

yea after throwing a tantrum

if i was just scum i'd just yeet you without throwing a tantrum cuz i dont give a f which townie i kill

[Infinity 324]

But if MC is town, Pooky actually has a ton of reason to want him specifically gone because he will probably be able to get a good solve later. From what was linked earlier, scum!pooky pushed MC in their last game with scum! pooky and town!MC

i guess, my read is just that he wouldn't get THAT mad

he was really upset

[Dwlee99]

cause he was pissed that clidd replaced out and they were likely to win if he didn't (correct me if i'm wrong pooky)

i'm not saying the ate has to serve a game purpose he just has to be mad about

something

Scum!Pooky here could be annoyed his mislim was falling through. I just think it's weird you think the ate here is beyond scum!Pooky.

do you think this could be scum!Infinity TMI townreading a town!Pooky or do you think scum!Pooky or what? I'm not understanding why the sudden pushback here or how it fits into your read of the game

Scum!infinity doing something is my guess? I've had some head scratching moments from infinity here and I think she isn't thinking like I think town would with her experiences.

And I mean you also did vote me...

yea after throwing a tantrum

if i was just scum i'd just yeet you without throwing a tantrum cuz i dont give a f which townie i kill

I just explained why I think you would give a [Cyrus].

But if MC is town, Pooky actually has a ton of reason to want him specifically gone because he will probably be able to get a good solve later. From what was linked earlier, scum!pooky pushed MC in their last game with scum! pooky and town!MC

i guess, my read is just that he wouldn't get THAT mad

he was really upset

Ehh

[northsidegal]

I don't need like a super comprehensive write up if that's taking too much effort I'm just curious what it is

Sure. Most of it was honestly just going to be repurposing a tell that was once used on me, so I figure I can just quote the original being used against me for you here:

Spoiler:

Subject: Newbie 1867 - Game Over

NSG Meta Tell #1:

*Out of 36 completed town games, NSG has only been mislynched three times, which is an excellent record. I would argue that most people who are difficult to mislynch are the types of people who dig their heels in and fight hard when confronted with the possibility of their own lynch. NSG is most certainly one of those people, but she hasn't displayed that quality here.

For example, take Partition Mafia. NSG opened the game up with a ton of lurking, but, when it looked likelier and likelier that she would be lynched, stepped up her game in a huge way. She's clearly rattled when voted incorrectly in mafia games (which is a common trait), and that means that when she's voted in games as town it tends to increase her emotional investment in games, resulting in posts like these:

You're not unvoting group 3 after I said it was a scumclaim from my opinion, so why should I listen to yours?

YOU NEVER EXPLAINED WHY IT WAS A SCUMCLAIM.

kokichi - i have been doing nohting but asking you to talk things over. if you are town, you are playing like utter trash making that vote right now.

Now, I know that it's not fair to expect her to get angry every time she's approaching a lynch, but a major problem I had with NSG's play before today is that she just felt listless the whole way through - now she's about to get lynched and be a major part of town losing the game, but there's no significant change in her play: she still feels flat, and she isn't focused on helping the town solve the game after her lynch (she'd argue that she's just waiting for me or waiting for someone else, but I find that bullshit - she has a full game to analyze and the best she can give for scumsuspects is her shallow scumread on Rampage and her nonread on me, don't think it's unreasonable to ask her to produce more than that).

The other thing that stands out to me is the fact that she continues gamesolving while she goes down the whole time, AND there are more depth to her reads. For example, take her read on Scioness here: it's "Scioness is town because of meta", and then no doubt, no paranoia, nothing. She has a similarly strong townread on Wisdom in Partition Mafia, but even then, she still considers reasons why he could be scum (as in here). Her scumreads are more nebulous due to the nature of the game, but it's clear that she's trying to talk to her townreads about what she thinks the best lynch and that she's trying hard to guide the town to a win - I don't get that sense at all here.

Similar response to being lynched here - is upset that people don't see her as obvtown as shit, starts to suspect people for pushes on her who she expects to know her better - this one is a little weird because there's a plan to win the game in place and I don't actually understand where her lynch came from at all...?

Her play here is pretty much exactly what I expect - after clawing out of her mislynch D1 (predecessor was suspected), there's great scumhunting vs RC (the scum spearheading her push as she goes down), strong emotional investment almost instantly, fights it all the way down.

Contrast that with Micro 792; she gets a bit frustrated at Mathdino for reasons that aren't "I'm obviously town and this lynch is horrible", and argues with him as she goes down but it's much more going through the motions (like it is here), and the strong sense of her scumhunting as she goes down and trying to guide the town in the right direction just isn't there.

Basically, I think that the "NSG Meta Tell" basically applies exactly to murdercat's play here. Out of the 16 completed post-hiatus town games on his wiki, he was miseliminated in only two of them, which is a pretty great record. As Nacho said, I think that the type of people who get miseliminated infrequently are those who really dig their heels in when challenged by votes and don't tend to really give up – not necessarily the effort, but the engagement tends to increase as the pressure increases. I haven't been able to give it as much of a read as I would've liked, but I think that this is pretty evident from a skim of his ISO in Mini Normal 2170. (Curiously, it seems like they were in a very similar situation as we find ourselves in this game, with murdercat calling for Pooky's elimination as he goes down – it seems to me like the manner in which he did so there is notable different than this game, but it's still noted that he was right in that game).

And I just don't see that this game. Explicitly saying that he's given a final mostly unexplained readslist and then dipping out to get hammered seems like the exact opposite of that. It's possible that this is an outlier game for him in terms of laziness or uninvestment, but even if that is the case, we can only go off of the evidence that is actually available to us.

[Infinity 324]

that's a great point, actually

when i've soulread murder in the past a couple times it came when he was wagoned and frantically went into solvy flareon mode and i yelled at the screen that he was town because i was spectating

i'm just worried it's rl stuff but we'll find out i guess. him disengaging at this point is a pretty good sign

[Infinity 324]

Scum!infinity doing something is my guess? I've had some head scratching moments from infinity here and I think she isn't thinking like I think town would with her experiences.

many people find me headscratching

[Gamma Emerald]

I feel like infinity is town here
I am sticking to THAT read from the exercise

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Infinity did you stop reading TTTT when you died? Pooky used a ton of AtE there, even when the game was effectively decided.

cause he was pissed that clidd replaced out and they were likely to win if he didn't (correct me if i'm wrong pooky)

i'm not saying the ate has to serve a game purpose he just has to be mad about

something

Scum!Pooky here could be annoyed his mislim was falling through. I just think it's weird you think the ate here is beyond scum!Pooky.

But if MC is town, Pooky actually has a ton of reason to want him specifically gone because he will probably be able to get a good solve later. From what was linked earlier, scum!pooky pushed MC in their last game with scum! pooky and town!MC

@pooky see above

cause he was pissed that clidd replaced out and they were likely to win if he didn't (correct me if i'm wrong pooky)

i'm not saying the ate has to serve a game purpose he just has to be mad about

something

Scum!Pooky here could be annoyed his mislim was falling through. I just think it's weird you think the ate here is beyond scum!Pooky.

do you think this could be scum!Infinity TMI townreading a town!Pooky or do you think scum!Pooky or what? I'm not understanding why the sudden pushback here or how it fits into your read of the game

Scum!infinity doing something is my guess? I've had some head scratching moments from infinity here and I think she isn't thinking like I think town would with her experiences.

And I mean you also did vote me...

yea after throwing a tantrum

if i was just scum i'd just yeet you without throwing a tantrum cuz i dont give a f which townie i kill

I just explained why I think you would give a [Cyrus].

But if MC is town, Pooky actually has a ton of reason to want him specifically gone because he will probably be able to get a good solve later. From what was linked earlier, scum!pooky pushed MC in their last game with scum! pooky and town!MC

i guess, my read is just that he wouldn't get THAT mad

he was really upset

Ehh

This is a pretty weird series of posts to make while you're voting for Murdercat lol

[northsidegal]

by the way, happy scumday guilty!