Micro 1029: 8-Ball (but with Wolves) Game Over

[Morning Tweet]

I can't remember the last pro-town thing Bingle did this game to be perfectly honest with you and with imagine I feel like imagine could vote anyone if he construed his logic as needed. He could have justified SS and Bingle just as easy yesterday -- does he really have no preferences?

SS has reads he just fuckin doesn't voice them even at the cost of appearing scummy and letting town die. But he did have reads that were good, *I think*

Anyway that's probably enough review for now! I'm glad to not just be screaming about imagine scum without elaborating any further. I think all three of these players are scummy as hell but now I'm reversing my reversal of the first reversal and wondering if worstie/I were right yesterday, again.

Bingle/imagine..... imagine mentioned earlier this game he would use the 8-ball defensively, didn't he? I wonder about that

[Morning Tweet]

I played pool the other day and i couldnt get this game out of my head

sometimes i feel like this game is no good for me LOL

[imaginality]

Well to be fair, scum did 8-ball Bingle yesterday, so..

But in any case, even if you wanna ignore your voting patterns, I think you're the least town of out the remaining suspects.

I'd definitely like to review in light of the flips and what we know now, maybe ill do that later

I don't believe the voting patterns are great for anyone:

Ali(House): voted Taly then Wisdom D1, voted Wisdom all the way D2, voted MT - imaginality - the worst D3.
Bingle: voted imaginality D1 with a late switch to Alisae, voted the worst D2 with a switch to hammer Wisdom, voted the worst throughout D3
Imaginality: voted Wisdom - Hiraki(MT) - Wisdom - Alisae D1, voted Wisdom D2, voted the worst - SS - the worst D3
Momrangal(Something_Smart): voted the worst D1, voted no one D2 (probably purely due to Mom going awol), voted no one D3

SS is better than the others for not being on the worst D3. But an SS-Bingle scum team would have likely 8-balled Bingle N2 in my opinion, and if so, then once they saw that Bingle wasn't getting limmed, there was town cred motivation for SS to keep his hands clean if possible, rather than join a wagon on the worst or me that he knew would flip town.

[imaginality]

Ooh, chunky posts from MT, one sec will comment on those.

[Morning Tweet]

I don't really count Mom for much in my reads

Other than I remember their hero solve being really out there

I'm more interested in SS's votes/reads

[imaginality]

post 1594
"I still kind of find imagineality independently scummy due to more or less floating around and not having.. strong conviction over who dies exactly."
Don't know if you noticed but this has been a hard game to read. I've never felt certain about any of my reads.

Re. The % post of mine, I was trying to figure out how to weigh up 8-ball odds vs scum odds. It's not the kind of post I'd do in a game with more normal mechanics. This game I felt it was useful to share. Now if I'd made that post

instead of

giving reads, sure I agree that's bad. But it was in addition to.

"Reason I bring this up is that imagineality was perfectly set up to kill Bingle and win the game yesterday had me or the worst commited to that scumread, I feel."

Seems there you're assuming Bingle is town? How does Bingle being scum affect your theory that I was trying to drive a Bingle lim?

"it surprised me imagine had [{Bingle, the worst}] as his most likely scenario."
It seemed like it had been an easy way for them to distance. In hindsight seems more like an easy way for Bingle to tunnel and set up a mislim. I still don't think some of Bingle's posts about the worst feel genuine.

" [SS] had a correct townread on TW, the only player in the game that i can remember doing so. Why exactly [SS] was so certain worstie was town, I'm not sure I'd have to review"

There is one obvious explanation...

"Seriously, if SS is town he coulda helped a little more presenting his reasoning rather than watching it go, no?"

This is a good point considering he didn't just vaguely but strongly town read the worst.

SS/Bingle/me interaction: I agree SS and I aren't partnered!

"imagine has his math showing worst is best"
If you are suspicious of my math that would point to SS being my buddy since really all the math did was weigh up voting SS vs the worst (given no one else wanted to vote Bingle, my main scum read, due to fear of 8-ball).
But earlier you argued against SS and me being partnered.

SS also shut worstie down from voting Bingle (I haven't forgotten that!). I have to give him some credit, he did dissuade the Bingle wagon by pushing that Bingle was obvious 8-ball

Giving him town cred for that assumes Bingle is town...

"I feel like imagine could vote anyone if he construed his logic as needed... Does he really have no preferences?"

My preference was Bingle but no one else wanted that.
Still my preference today.

I didn't see a lot between the worst and SS, what swayed it was what I thought was a scummy contradiction with the worst about when his read changed.

As for SS having reads that are good, as per my earlier point: easy to have good reads when you're the informed minority.


"imagine mentioned earlier this game he would use the 8-ball defensively, didn't he? I wonder about that"

Yes, when I'm scum I do like to tell town all about my thinking...
Honestly I would be very surprised if any scum team among the remaining players had not put Bingle as 8-ball. Interested to see if I'm right at game end, though more interested to see who was 8-ball D1. My new theory for D1 is scum put 8-ball on themselves to play defensively and see what wagons town decided to drive.

I played pool the other day and i couldnt get this game out of my head

sometimes i feel like this game is no good for me LOL

Mafia pool variant: one player secretly writes down 5 of the balls. Then both players play. Either player can hit any ball. Town player wins if all 5 scum balls are eliminated. Scum player wins if their balls equal or outnumber the town balls at any time.

Alternate mafia pool variant: play Killer (three players, one is 1-5, the next 6-10, the third 11-15, players can hit any ball, players win if their opponent's balls are all potted, both opponents get a ball back on the table if you foul). But keep it secret who is which set of balls.

[imaginality]

also if I replace into this position as scum I probably make myself the 8-ball and tell my partner to not bus me, and then when I inevitably flip everyone will go oh he must have been bussed.

unless my partner is in a good enough spot to just force through a mis-exe, but I'm not sure if anyone here besides maybe MT would qualify for that.

This post interests me. Considering it fits with what Bingle and SS did, aside from the elim ending up on the worst instead...

[Morning Tweet]

!!

thank u very much imagine i look forward to reviewing that when i have time

I mean yeah you don't give away what you're doing as scum necessarily but sometimes scum is truthful about how they play since it's a far more convincing lie

[Morning Tweet]

"I still kind of find imagineality independently scummy due to more or less floating around and not having.. strong conviction over who dies exactly."
Don't know if you noticed but this has been a hard game to read. I've never felt certain about any of my reads.

This is fair enough. Still, it's a route I'd expect scum to take.

Re. The % post of mine, I was trying to figure out how to weigh up 8-ball odds vs scum odds. It's not the kind of post I'd do in a game with more normal mechanics. This game I felt it was useful to share. Now if I'd made that post instead of giving reads, sure I agree that's bad. But it was in addition to.

Fair enough. Your reads sort of let you kill anyone in Bingle/SS/worstie and the mech thing came which let you vote worstie somewhat conveniently, though

"Reason I bring this up is that imagineality was perfectly set up to kill Bingle and win the game yesterday had me or the worst commited to that scumread, I feel."

Seems there you're assuming Bingle is town? How does Bingle being scum affect your theory that I was trying to drive a Bingle lim?

Either way, Bingle was 8-ball in my mind. Keeping Bingle open is not a bad idea from scum!you -- actively driving it would probably be too questionable, though. In your own words though I recall you weren't *driving* it, you were just considering the vote.

Also it's obviously a good idea if you're with SS -- but I'm unsure it's that simple

"it surprised me imagine had [{Bingle, the worst}] as his most likely scenario."
It seemed like it had been an easy way for them to distance. In hindsight seems more like an easy way for Bingle to tunnel and set up a mislim. I still don't think some of Bingle's posts about the worst feel genuine.

" [SS] had a correct townread on TW, the only player in the game that i can remember doing so. Why exactly [SS] was so certain worstie was town, I'm not sure I'd have to review"

There is one obvious explanation...

Them speaking past each other with no chance for pivoting away or really talking at all just seemed like odd SvS behaviour to me, I suppose.

I agree with you I think some of Bingle's posts towards worstie were really not terribly genuine.

Hehe, TMI is definitely one explanation. It's something I want to explore today, in addition to whether or not Bingles posts are genuine. I should write that down maybe

"Seriously, if SS is town he coulda helped a little more presenting his reasoning rather than watching it go, no?"

This is a good point considering he didn't just vaguely but strongly town read the worst.

SS/Bingle/me interaction: I agree SS and I aren't partnered!

"imagine has his math showing worst is best"
If you are suspicious of my math that would point to SS being my buddy since really all the math did was weigh up voting SS vs the worst (given no one else wanted to vote Bingle, my main scum read, due to fear of 8-ball).
But earlier you argued against SS and me being partnered.

I was under the impression you came to the conclusion that worst was the best from that person. Perhaps I misinterpreted.

Either way, I am getting the feeling it isn't imagineality/SS, so far, yeah. Hope I don't regret saying that.

Giving him town cred for that assumes Bingle is town...

Sort of. You make a good point that the benefit to scum!SS is greater if Bingle is 8!ball and scum since by shutting that down it reflects well on him.

I notice while reviewing I was having trouble thinking of more than one player as scum at the same time, in a way. You make a good point I fail to think about the partnerships a lot. That's mildly interesting

"I feel like imagine could vote anyone if he construed his logic as needed... Does he really have no preferences?"

My preference was Bingle but no one else wanted that.
Still my preference today.

Might be good.

I sort of forget that Bingle was your preference but I feel that was prolly my fault for not paying attention. Worst and I reevaluated on Bingle and I had the blinders on towards him for a while.

I didn't see a lot between the worst and SS, what swayed it was what I thought was a scummy contradiction with the worst about when his read changed.

As for SS having reads that are good, as per my earlier point: easy to have good reads when you're the informed minority.

I kinda sorta found that reasoning to be a stretch. A little odd I guess but not a huge deal.

Yup agree again that's fair enough. While on one hand SS took some protown action whereas I think Bingle really never did, SS didn't quite do enough when he theoretically was the best player in the game to defend worst

But he can kind of just say it's his meta so I dunno what to do with that

"imagine mentioned earlier this game he would use the 8-ball defensively, didn't he? I wonder about that"

Yes, when I'm scum I do like to tell town all about my thinking...
Honestly I would be very surprised if any scum team among the remaining players had not put Bingle as 8-ball. Interested to see if I'm right at game end, though more interested to see who was 8-ball D1. My new theory for D1 is scum put 8-ball on themselves to play defensively and see what wagons town decided to drive.

Good point, Bingle was probably always the play.

I too am curious about the D1 8-ball TBH

Mafia pool variant: one player secretly writes down 5 of the balls. Then both players play. Either player can hit any ball. Town player wins if all 5 scum balls are eliminated. Scum player wins if their balls equal or outnumber the town balls at any time.

Alternate mafia pool variant: play Killer (three players, one is 1-5, the next 6-10, the third 11-15, players can hit any ball, players win if their opponent's balls are all potted, both opponents get a ball back on the table if you foul). But keep it secret who is which set of balls.

I'd play. My mate hates mafia with a passion though, wonder if that'd extend to pool

[Morning Tweet]

!!

thank u very much imagine i look forward to reviewing that when i have time

I mean yeah you don't give away what you're doing as scum necessarily but sometimes scum is truthful about how they play since it's a far more convincing lie

(lol sike im doing it right now)

My lingering questions are "Was Bingle's push on worstie during D3, while worst was active genuine?" and "Why did SS townread worstie so strongly yet do so little (emphasis on the first question)?"

[Morning Tweet]

I am the worst town player of all time, starting to wish I were just scum

did I mention I appreciate you taking the time to read and interact with me imagine?

Very fun!! I hope I can have as enlightening interactions with Bingle and SS as well

[imaginality]

You're welcome. It's not like I'm making a special effort here though? But yes discussion is good and it's nice when my online presence overlaps enough for a back and forth. Seems from a quick read you've taken my points on board or given them a fair consideration at least.

Your posts so far today seems to me very much like useful thinking and questions rather than overthinking - hopefully the choice today doesn't end up as stressful as the D2 choice did.

If you're ever in NZ I'll give you a game of mafia pool.

[imaginality]

I notice while reviewing I was having trouble thinking of more than one player as scum at the same time, in a way. You make a good point I fail to think about the partnerships a lot. That's mildly interesting

This point is especially important today I think. Because if you are able to rank {Bingle,SS}, {Bingle, me}, and {me, SS} in order of most to least likely then (if you see all of us as similar chances of being 8-ball), whoever is in both the top two of your partnerships is the best target to elim today.

Unless House is scum

[imaginality]

"imagine has his math showing worst is best"
If you are suspicious of my math that would point to SS being my buddy since really all the math did was weigh up voting SS vs the worst (given no one else wanted to vote Bingle, my main scum read, due to fear of 8-ball).
But earlier you argued against SS and me being partnered.

I was under the impression you came to the conclusion that worst was the best from that person. Perhaps I misinterpreted.

If you look at 955 (three posts before the maths post) I clearly said I saw Bingle and the worst as more likely scum than SS, but I raised the possibly that SS might be worth voting taking into account 8-ball risks. My maths post just reassured me the difference in risk between the worst and SS wasn't significant, but had I not quantified things I would have voted the worst. So the maths post didn't change anything. I suppose I could have just posted it in my notes topic but I wanted to show town where my thinking was at.

Either way, I am getting the feeling it isn't imagineality/SS, so far, yeah. Hope I don't regret saying that.

I hope you don't either, it would mean I got sent the wrong role PM.

But he can kind of just say it's his meta so I dunno what to do with that

Fair.

!!

thank u very much imagine i look forward to reviewing that when i have time

I mean yeah you don't give away what you're doing as scum necessarily but sometimes scum is truthful about how they play since it's a far more convincing lie

(lol sike im doing it right now)

My lingering questions are "Was Bingle's push on worstie during D3, while worst was active genuine?" and "Why did SS townread worstie so strongly yet do so little (emphasis on the first question)?"

Both good questions.
I still think individually Bingle looks worse than SS but like I said above, you should take interactions and possible partnerships into account also.

[Bingle]

My lingering questions are "Was Bingle's push on worstie during D3, while worst was active genuine?" and "Why did SS townread worstie so strongly yet do so little (emphasis on the first question)?"

I mean... Yes. What makes you think it wasn't?

Duck's progression from I won't engage on anything while he wasn't receiving any blowback to what I thought was very opportunistic and manipulative engagement made me think he was scum. I genuinely thought that duck was obvscum, and the fact that you agreed with me is really the only evidence I can give that my suspicions were reasonable. If there's a specific place you'd like me to talk about my thought process I can oblige, but I don't think litigating my incorrect reads is going to be of much use, tbh.

[Bingle]

better hope so lol

I'm scum in 2 out of 3 world from his point of view, but me voting him is "gamethrowing"?

If I'm scum and he's town, I'm playing to my win con.

But he knows I'm town.

If you weren't gamethrowing, I didn't actually want you to unvote.

Like, FMPOV:

House is town and blowing the entire game.
House is scum and this is actually probably the best chance I have of catching that.

The former option was way more important to address, and thus the case I was actually addressing.

[Bingle]

I can't remember the last pro-town thing Bingle did this game

The answer is pretty much nothing. I've been a liability. I haven't had strong reads I've been pushing, had paranoia on people who have since flipped town and spent the entirety of the game either tunneled on town or sheeping Wisdom's imaginality push to try to make that a viable alternative to Ali/House which may or may not have actually been protown, but certainly wasn't very strongly protown since it ended up going absolutely no where.

My last minute attempt to put AliHouse into hammer range D1 and my frustration hammer of Wisdom when no one was listening to me may look scummy at the surface, but they're also moves that are just really blatant. Like, anyone with half a brain would know that hammering Wisdom there would bring them under a lot of scrutiny they didn't want to be under as scum.

It's a weak defense, but I'm actually pretty well regarded for my scum game and this game is not it. I could see it maybe if I were trying to set up a deep wolf partner to go the distance, but me playing this sloppily as scum doesn't match up with any of my prospective scum partners.

I know, I know. WIFOM.

[Morning Tweet]

My lingering questions are "Was Bingle's push on worstie during D3, while worst was active genuine?" and "Why did SS townread worstie so strongly yet do so little (emphasis on the first question)?"

I mean... Yes. What makes you think it wasn't?

Duck's progression from I won't engage on anything while he wasn't receiving any blowback to what I thought was very opportunistic and manipulative engagement made me think he was scum. I genuinely thought that duck was obvscum, and the fact that you agreed with me is really the only evidence I can give that my suspicions were reasonable. If there's a specific place you'd like me to talk about my thought process I can oblige, but I don't think litigating my incorrect reads is going to be of much use, tbh.

I think you were correct that ducky wasn't really engaging with you like at all for the longest time. He did start playing the game though after that hand-wavey start to D3.

You called it his reevaluation scrambling to try and save himself, and you thought he was shading you in posts that weren't even really about you and he of course wasnt really suspecting you at all. It felt like than genuine to me. I should look at more specific examples.

I see that i pretty much listed everything in that last sentence lol.

It's tough cause I know you were on V/la, but it's just like I'm finding it difficult that you thought worstie was scum so strongly that you never entertained anything he did as anything other than scummy, even a neutral post like in 1205.

I can kind of understand thinking the Bingle townread is a result of me townreading you so he had to go elsewhere, I guess. You tunneled so hard ;-;

[Morning Tweet]

I can't remember the last pro-town thing Bingle did this game

The answer is pretty much nothing. I've been a liability. I haven't had strong reads I've been pushing, had paranoia on people who have since flipped town and spent the entirety of the game either tunneled on town or sheeping Wisdom's imaginality push to try to make that a viable alternative to Ali/House which may or may not have actually been protown, but certainly wasn't very strongly protown since it ended up going absolutely no where.

My last minute attempt to put AliHouse into hammer range D1 and my frustration hammer of Wisdom when no one was listening to me may look scummy at the surface, but they're also moves that are just really blatant. Like, anyone with half a brain would know that hammering Wisdom there would bring them under a lot of scrutiny they didn't want to be under as scum.

It's a weak defense, but I'm actually pretty well regarded for my scum game and this game is not it. I could see it maybe if I were trying to set up a deep wolf partner to go the distance, but me playing this sloppily as scum doesn't match up with any of my prospective scum partners.

I know, I know. WIFOM.

Didn't you mention earlier you'd do cheeky shit like that as scum because it's too obvious? But here you're saying you wouldn't cause you know it's blatant and looks bad. Which is more accurate?

[Bingle]

Didn't you mention earlier you'd do cheeky shit like that as scum because it's too obvious? But here you're saying you wouldn't cause you know it's blatant and looks bad. Which is more accurate?

I don't remember saying that I would cheekyscum in this game, although it is definitely true. My point is that I wouldn't cheeky scum with any of the people who could reasonably still be my scumbuddy.

In D&C I cheekyscummed because I was setting my partner up for the endgame. In this game my partner being one of {Ali/imagine/Mom/Hiraki} and the setup being antibus in general it is very unlikely I would commit to a strategy like that early. Ali would be pissed at me for making em play alone and I know that, I have no experience with imagine or hiraki to have faith in the carry, and Mom is questionable just because she flakes a lot.

tl;dr the question isn't would I play a cheeky scumgame (I would). The question is does this look like I played a cheeky scumgame, and I think it's pretty obvious that I haven't.

[Bingle]

I don't remember saying that I would cheekyscum in this game, although it is definitely true.

To clarify ambiguous wording: I don't recall saying that I would be cheeky as scum in general while I was posting in this game. In general, I am definitely capable of being cheeky scum.

[Bingle]

So in a way it wraps back around to seeming uninformed because if i were informed Wisdom were the 8-ball I damn sure wouldn't ask Wisdom a question then just go fuck it and kill him

Bingle is the type to make that kind of calculated decision as scum.

FTFY

I found what you were talking about, which was not at all me saying I would be cheeky as scum, but does relate to what I'm saying. I would 100% do something like quickhammer a player as scum. I wouldn't quickhammer a player as scum with a partner I wasn't sure could carry the game afterwards, and I think it's pretty obvious none of the players I could feasibly be scum with were in a position I would be comfortable leaving them as the sole scum voice at the end of D1.5.

[Morning Tweet]

So in a way it wraps back around to seeming uninformed because if i were informed Wisdom were the 8-ball I damn sure wouldn't ask Wisdom a question then just go fuck it and kill him

Bingle is the type to make that kind of calculated decision as scum.

FTFY

I found what you were talking about, which was not at all me saying I would be cheeky as scum, but does relate to what I'm saying. I would 100% do something like quickhammer a player as scum. I wouldn't quickhammer a player as scum with a partner I wasn't sure could carry the game afterwards, and I think it's pretty obvious none of the players I could feasibly be scum with were in a position I would be comfortable leaving them as the sole scum voice at the end of D1.5.

That is a somewhat fair enough point. Although, maybe you felt like you were as valuable as removing Wisdom + Taly from the game? I dunno.

You were definitely the 8-ball yesterday.. that has to be important. But every team would have 8-balled you, it was just a good move. Why can't I figure this out?

[Morning Tweet]

SS, talk to me about your worstie read.

[Morning Tweet]

Oh right you're V/LA.

I wish we had killed SS or anyone not named ducky yesterday, i miss him