Mini 2247: Mountain Dew Mafia (Game Over)

[MUSHSHAGANA]

So, heads up out of the gate since it landed on me five minutes prior to receiving the daystart PM... I'll be a bit intermittent for a few days, due to RL stuff. Monday I'll definitely give everything a good sitdown if I can't keep up.



Meanwhile: VOTE: Toogeloo

Because Toogeloo is the one who I have history with who I have spoken to the least. Clearly intentional.

Hi uhhhhhh everyone else I have history with.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I find meta to be misleading for most cases. It’s a fallback if I don’t know how to read someone, and even then I only account for meta I personally witnessed.

It’s a good thing I know a decent amount of the players this game at least a little bit.

I expect to find Dunn confusing in particular for me. Other challenging players might be LLD, we have broadly similar ways of thinking in my experience — which could lead to false positives on townreads from apparent mind reads, or false negatives on scumreads from apparent inconsistencies between person and play. Toog’s one where past experience could lead me astray if I lean heavy on my Death Curse memories trying to avoid repeating past mistakes.

As ever, I am always strategizing, and as ever, I am trying new tactics. I’m also busy and my free time is in flux, so I don’t plan to get lost in a rabbit hole as I did in Death Curse or Syryana’s Popcorn, to varying degrees of catastrophe. On the flip side, Pooky and Noraa are in a hydra so if I fail to keep that shit in line we can’t have a repeat of the dramatic finish of Death Curse, for which I am sad.

See you all tomorrow.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I’m assuming you’ve read some games of mine given you’re not saying you expect to find me confusing?

It’s technically tomorrow, I guess. That counts, right?

No, I have no use for meta I wasn’t a participant for. Players unknown to me are players for whom I have no expectations. Anything is possible.

Also, for whichever head of the Norky (Pooraa? Norpoo?) hydra that was: I refuse to be a part of any religious establishment unless it is for the sole purpose of driving a joke into the ground while everyone around me says “oh pleas make it stop I repent”. I have learned nothing but I swear it won’t happen again.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I’m assuming you’ve read some games of mine given you’re not saying you expect to find me confusing?

It’s technically tomorrow, I guess. That counts, right?

No, I have no use for meta I wasn’t a participant for. Players unknown to me are players for whom I have no expectations. Anything is possible.

Also, for whichever head of the Norky (Pooraa? Norpoo?) hydra that was: I refuse to be a part of any religious establishment unless it is for the sole purpose of driving a joke into the ground while everyone around me says “oh pleas make it stop I repent”. I have learned nothing but I swear it won’t happen again.

Not even a worshipper of the Wild Mother? Sounds fine to me. Long as you’re happy there’s always being a servant of the Traveler I suppose. Seems like the Traveler might be more up your alley anyway.

Well, if you're going to ask... my many holy names include Beggar-Knight of Eris Militant, Wielder of "Oh No Not Again", Holy Grotesquerie of the Third Eye, Laughing Helminthic Intruder, Nulldusk Heavy Industries Co., Maw of the Void, Alterant, and one secret name I'm oathsworn not to reveal to the uninitiated.

Past holy names include The Grand Nullification, Grease-Fire of the Eleventh Sphere (still mad about this one), and High Pope of the Anti-Papal Office of Papal Anti-Popes (Defunct).

I'm entirely serious about all of this and these holy names (except Grease-Fire of the Eleventh Sphere) have been associated with me in actual things I made and (mostly) other people released to the world.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I have a partial alignment gradient across everyone who has weighed in on Dunn vs LLD so far, so I am going to say this back and forth definitely benefits town. I might not be able to properly sort Dunn or LLD before their current skirmish resolves, but I’d bet my bottom dollar that given enough time I can sort everyone else specifically because of it.

This is good, I like this gamestate.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

VOTE: Extraplanetary Multiform Mobile Identifier, aka E.M.M.I.

Metroidvania games are my thing. Gotta take out my enemies. Plus, not a fan of the sheep vote on Dunn.

PEdit: you went 0/3, so. You're the type of player I immediately put my trust guard up around regardless though.

I went 0/3 in one game where on Day 1 I had Dunn and Cabd as a hard townread and so they got to manipulate my reads.

I also won that game, in the end. I've also led deaths on scum day 1 plenty of times.

It's literally just a game where my strongest town reads were scum and got under my guard and I had to re-evaluate later in days. That's fine, that's meant to happen sometimes.

You're being pretty results oriented...

Question! Considering the results-orientation of Toogeloo and your apparent critique of it:

Is it fair or unfair for someone to take past results and use them to judge future performance? Is it more fair to take the sum of all results, functionally assuming inability to adjust, or to take an average over the most recent results, allowing recent bad runs to overshadow a longer good run? Are results less important than reads that simply follow the confident, or are they less important?

Do you think our moderators/reviewers would purposefully select flavor that was exactly divided on scum-town lines, allowing a massclaim to break the game open, or would they select flavor that would purposefully hamper attempts to divine alignment through flavor?

All of these are honest questions I'm very curious to hear your answers to, and almost more importantly, /how/ you answer them.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Therefore if anyone townreads Dunn I would expect those players to be of similar alignment. Eg if Dunn is town, person townreading Dunn is town and if Dunn scum person scum.

This makes basically no sense to me

I see a missing logical conclusion. Namely, more people seem to be saying Dunn is town than not (which is based admittedly on an exaggerated reading of the thread), which logically closes off Dunn being scum.

What makes this a problem is the lack of commitment to Dunn not being scum, and not finishing the thought. That's a technique I use to manipulate people, and its a common way to manipulate people in general -- you leave an open hole. People think it through, sensing something unsaid, reach the conclusion on their own, and that sticks better than if the speaker had just come out and said it to start with. Furthermore, the people who come to that conclusion will be more likely to believe they came up with it by themselves, allowing the person speaking to dodge responsibility.

VOTE: Critter

Let's see if anyone comes to the conclusion I have, and if they see how I did it. Note: don't just assume the obvious option for what conclusion I've come to.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Therefore if anyone townreads Dunn I would expect those players to be of similar alignment. Eg if Dunn is town, person townreading Dunn is town and if Dunn scum person scum.

This makes basically no sense to me

I see a missing logical conclusion. Namely, more people seem to be saying Dunn is town than not (which is based admittedly on an exaggerated reading of the thread), which logically closes off Dunn being scum.

What makes this a problem is the lack of commitment to Dunn not being scum, and not finishing the thought. That's a technique I use to manipulate people, and its a common way to manipulate people in general -- you leave an open hole. People think it through, sensing something unsaid, reach the conclusion on their own, and that sticks better than if the speaker had just come out and said it to start with. Furthermore, the people who come to that conclusion will be more likely to believe they came up with it by themselves, allowing the person speaking to dodge responsibility.

VOTE: Critter

Let's see if anyone comes to the conclusion I have, and if they see how I did it. Note: don't just assume the obvious option for what conclusion I've come to.

I mean, yes, I have not drawn a conclusion either way, this is true. One can say I am rather indecisive. But I have been consistently working away from snap judgments. I won’t make a decision on anyone until I feel I can definitely say so.

Let's say I don't believe you. What's your argument that you aren't manipulating the playerlist?

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I am not? I don’t really have an argument for what I am not doing.

Fair enough.

Still waiting to see if anyone figures out what I've decided.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

A bold statement. But you aren't whose take I'm waiting on.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

A bold statement. But you aren't whose take I'm waiting on.

If you can answer this without exposing who you’re waiting on please do.

How does waiting on someone else’s opinion mean you vote me?

I don’t follow.

You don’t need to follow.

I’ve said it in my other games and I’ll say it again: I bring an alien mindset and manipulative town playstyle to the table in a Mafia game. You’re just seeing that in practice. It is, perhaps, cruel in your eyes to put pressure on you and suggest there is nothing you can do to sway me, that you are at the whims of other things (be it people or statements or times) and you don’t even know what they are. I could apologize, but I don’t think it would be helpful. Perhaps even counterproductive. Maybe a lie.

Also, consider that there might not be a specific “who” I’m waiting on, only that you are not it. That might also be an intentionally misleading statement. You don’t know. That’s the point.

PEDIT: Something_Smart, I’m also showing my hand while I’m doing it. My hand is, admittedly, draped in smoke and mirrors, but that’s par for the course.

As my friend Roger would say, “This is all normal, Billy”.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Yeah, I suppose it's fine as long as you explain it eventually.

Whose response exactly are you waiting for?

That would be telling. Maybe it’s yours, right now, and I’m just playing out the game I’ve set.

Maybe it’s no one’s and I’ve actually lied in order to force this sort of engagement, and I’ll play it off like I had a plan all along when I get something worth picking at.

And maybe I’m watching the players outside of the two 1v1s to see which they gravitate to weighing in on, making hidden judgement calls on that basis, and building a map of where to hit.

Or none of the above. Again, you do not know. That’s the point.

I work best in the midst of chaos. A side effect of being a Discordian, maybe. Chaos has arrived, tis the season of Aftermath. Now the work begins, and I can’t very well do my best if I clear everything up for you, now can I?

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I wouldn’t say cruel either, just counter productive.

I’ll just stop you here.

If you don’t know what my aim is, how can you say it’s counterproductive?

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Take something smart for example, it becomes harder to tell if Something Smart is opportunistic scum or if you’re just scum who can’t fake a Townie mindset so why bother.

I’m honest, usually. I rarely outright lie, but if I just say “I’m not lying” I can’t get the appropriate range of reactions.

This response you’re giving is very instructive on your alignment, for instance, and I wasn’t even expecting I’d be able to get this sort of content out of you in a parseable form. Not because I know something about you (I don’t) but because I tend to be blind to the true alignment of the other side of my 1v1s (as I’ve learned the hard way quite often).

There is always something else going on, when it comes to my play.

Also, I don’t think those reads are tainted. I’m waiting for useful information on StrangeMatter still, still a bit vanilla responses on that end, but I think I have a handle on Something_Smart. Not enough to build a whole read on, but a fairly informed opinion that can turn into a read pretty quickly.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I’m watching Dunn and LLD closely too. I haven’t forgotten them or tried to bury them.

But don’t you think it’s more informative to have two sources of tension than one? To see what one draws what people? To see how they are allowed to evolve and grow, or abandoned to the dustbin of the thread?

I’ll be able to make a move there tonight, when one or both of Dunn and LLD has posted again. For now it’s you, me and anyone who cares to weigh in.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I’m glad we understand each other, Gamma.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Basically I can tell he’s being sarcastic

Oh no. I think you misunderstand me. I am saying he’s scum because it’s sarcastic. I read it like Valley Girl tone of “Guess you’re the only person who reads matter”. It’s a put down to M while subtly agreeing that something I did was scummy.

I'd say deniably, not subtly, at the very most. I read it more like buddying you. Either way, because Something_Smart jumped too early (whoopsie doodle!), I got what I wanted out of this -- reads gathered include you town, Something_Smart leaning scum, Gamma leaning town, StrangeMatter hovering (which indicates scum for me if it goes on too long).

VOTE: StrangeMatter

But I don't want to wait for that to resolve. My read of StrangeMatter is that I'll be here awhile if I want to wait for it to happen. So I'm gonna shove here and see what gives, instead.


PEDIT: Well, looks like you got away from the "subtly" language at least.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Buddying assumes not genuine, yeah? What makes you think it wasn't genuine?

Context.



What did you expect me to do? Give you the answer key?

[MUSHSHAGANA]

What about the context?

I think I'll leave that a riddle for you to figure out. There is, in fact, an answer and I will, in fact, provide proof I'm not just making shit up down the line when I'm confident revealing it: it refers to 2 events other than your post, and the deciding factor is progression.

What do I mean by events? What progression am I referring to? I dunno, seems reasonable to ask but I think I just dropped all my answers in the dirt a second ago and I don't know what's going on anymore.

I'll check back in later, got some finance work to do. Tomorrow and Saturday are gonna be even dicier in terms of time, we'll see how it all goes.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Welp.

Calling Dunn flipping red. Regardless of flip, I also like the bears for scum right now.

Eyes on Critter, Something_Smart, StrangeMatter.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Jesus I thought this was a quickhammer because of those posts wtf

i think you just inadvertently answered my Q to mush, who i now also think thought dunn was hammered.

-b

That is, in fact, EXACTLY what I thought.

God, what a weird ride.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

StrangeMatter leaning red. I'm really feeling Dunn and the bear pair right now, but number three is a harder decision to make. I'm gonna call it StrangeMatter for now (recency bias!) but Something_Smart is definitely up there.

Three things for Critter:
1: I thought you quickhammered.
2: Quickhammering red that you had so much doubt on the alignment of out of the blue would have been awful scummy, particularly with bears right behind. I'd have far too many red, so I would be trying to whittle it down, hence eyes on.
3: Gamma was, like, clearly replying to my message from last night. Like your name was not there, you were not quoted. It was to me and about my message? That was weird of you to misinterpret that hard -- so weird that I'm just gonna call it NAI. Because if it's AI, you're a third party or scum who has lost the plot and stuck their foot in it -- and if I read the setup right, there are no 3Ps.

PEDIT: Oh, okay, so n.3 is handled then.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

So the thread was locked when I had a chance to post last.

Regarding my reasons for scumreading StrangeMatter, they're weak, as well they should be at this early stage. In my eyes they ask questions that, while technically advancing, are questions others have already asked (and usually in more detail), and in my eyes, the wording appears to deflect from the targets rather than cornering them. It's a thing town is capable of, but it's also a thing that scum gets more out of doing than town, in my opinion.

Also, as ever, I have other reasons I have no intention of revealing at this time. I'll remind the list that my vote is on StrangeMatter and move forward.



Now, moving from that, I find it funny that Critter was accusing me of drawing attention away from Dunnstral vs LLD (note: those two were not active at that time!) when I was gathering player reactions, but appeared to be doing the same thing here as regards Toogeloo vs LLD, while those two were in fact active. There's another component too, the good ol' "let's you and them fight", pitting me as scum vs. innocent StrangeMatter while maintaining a distance from the interaction themselves. Note the distinction of drawing attention to myself and another player during a lull then, versus Critter placing the spotlight on two other players while remaining conveniently outside of the beam in the middle of an ongoing back and forth most recently.

My eye remains on you, Critter. This time, it's all on you that this happened, not a misunderstanding of what happened in the thread.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Apologies, I just doublechecked and it appears I confused you and Dunnstral, who is absolutely shining a spotlight on me and StrangeMatter while avoiding the beam. Incredibly weird mistake to make too, because you didn't have any spotlight on you at all and you didn't even mention StrangeMatter. I got no excuse at all, my brain just flubbed it.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Also, as ever, I have other reasons I have no intention of revealing at this time. I'll remind the list that my vote is on StrangeMatter and move forward.

You have no reason to be this secretive, this feels performative.

Now, moving from that, I find it funny that Critter was accusing me of drawing attention away from Dunnstral vs LLD (note: those two were not active at that time!) when I was gathering player reactions, but appeared to be doing the same thing here as regards Toogeloo vs LLD, while those two were in fact active. There's another component too, the good ol' "let's you and them fight", pitting me as scum vs. innocent StrangeMatter while maintaining a distance from the interaction themselves. Note the distinction of drawing attention to myself and another player during a lull then, versus Critter placing the spotlight on two other players while remaining conveniently outside of the beam in the middle of an ongoing back and forth most recently.

My eye remains on you, Critter. This time, it's all on you that this happened, not a misunderstanding of what happened in the thread.

Apologies, I just doublechecked and it appears I confused you and Dunnstral, who is absolutely shining a spotlight on me and StrangeMatter while avoiding the beam. Incredibly weird mistake to make too, because you didn't have any spotlight on you at all and you didn't even mention StrangeMatter. I got no excuse at all, my brain just flubbed it.

A misunderstanding of this level doesn't really make sense. At the very least, it doesn't feel like you are giving Critter/Myself a fair shake, it feels like you already know what opinion you want to have.

Also, 337 is incorrect, I'm not avoiding anything or shining a spotlight on StrangeMatter

Fos: MUSHSHAGANA

Dunn, you even played with me in Popcorn. Come on. I'm always obfuscating shit, playing multiple games with a given post, and manipulating openly and with a wink and a nod. Less in that particular game, because I was completely drowned by stress, unmedicated and literally in an unheated basement for the back half of my time playing it, but it was still something I repeatedly said: "I'm doing this and explaining nothing" in various wordings.

This just reeks of scumflail. Yeah, you're my target for this dayphase probably. But I want to keep leaning on StrangeMatter for content.

I'll answer your prior question shortly, in the best way I know how. It'd be a bit large to do in this post.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

What am I avoiding Mush?

Well, you see...

Hi Dunn!
Bye Dunn!

...a lot of people had you pinged for red for a fair amount of time. As for this...

Also I am not shining a spotlight on SM.

I think you might want to doublecheck that, hmm?

Mushshagana writes a lot of words but reaches no conclusions and doesn't talk about their reads beyond "I'm feeling it".
Toog's post is weird because they are focused on the IC and not in a good way.
Strangematter asked a pretty legitimate questionvthat deserves an answer rather than them being disregarded and called scum without explanation

Which SM question was that?

283; I believe this is not the first time somebody asked something like this and it feels like Mush slotted them as scum for that post

LLD told you to cool it on that topic and you backed off, I admit. Given LLD is the IC and one of the more aggressive players this game, that would make sense /regardless/ of your alignment, since continuing to argue makes you the center of attention once again. As for raising the question in the first place, it felt perfectly in line with past activity this game from you -- you're in the spotlight and you lost your dedicated target, so you're trying to juke the thread of conversation to other people and/or just create noise in the thread and disrupt town. Anything else keeps the you-red discussion the center of attention. With the extra noise from the sidechannel back-and-forth between Toog and LLD, it looks even uglier, like you're trying to make Toog/ssbm slot look suspicious if you flip red.

I was initially reminded of Noraa's "townslip" in Death Curse (early drop of something that might get free towncred) by your post more than I thought LLD had a point about the roles in general, but your denial of the importance of flavor to roles makes you flunk /that/ test, too.

When I'm thinking someone is scum, I run the numbers on them being town also. What town activity do we have from you? It all looks like a caught child blaming their sibling for the offending behavior (not in terms of childishness but in terms of how blatant your attempts to redirect and deflect are, so we're clear). You aren't even being subtle.

So who else is on team with you? Not really asking, you'd never give them up except as a gambit, or Rule of 3 behavior to muddy the waters. More just pointing out that in my mind, that's the only question left for you specifically in this game.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

LLD told you to cool it on that topic and you backed off, I admit.

I don't think this exchange ever happened between LLD and myself?

This isn't really your day in terms of defending yourself, is it?

Mushshagana writes a lot of words but reaches no conclusions and doesn't talk about their reads beyond "I'm feeling it".
Toog's post is weird because they are focused on the IC and not in a good way.
Strangematter asked a pretty legitimate questionvthat deserves an answer rather than them being disregarded and called scum without explanation

Which SM question was that?

283; I believe this is not the first time somebody asked something like this and it feels like Mush slotted them as scum for that post

I am not sure 283 is as valid of a question towards Mush who as far as I know hasn't played with you before?

You could ask it to ME, but... I'm not going on meta either.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

It wasn't directed at Mush but my issue is that Mush seems to be calling them scum for that

Okay then, so let's get clarification from Mush.

Mush, are you saying SM is scum for post 283 and/or other posts, and if so, can you provide some elaboration/elucidation on that matter?

Oh, sorry, I forgot to quote the more clear post.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Yours made sense because it was related to nicknames and thinking someone was responding to you. Mush writes paragraphs about things that didn't happen, and as I mentioned it feels like they have a goal in mind (scumreading certain players) while you would have no such goal.

I always have goals in mind, but you're portraying my goal as "having any scumread at all." Which is blatantly false, since I've given reasoning for all my cases. Oh sure, I've held reasoning back just as much as I've explained it, but I have no need to coach scum on what they're doing to get scumread. And besides that, I've explained in every single game I've been in that most people will not understand about half of my reasoning most of the time, because I'm looking in weird places because I'm completely unable to recognize or understand "normal" tells.

Meanwhile, I've pointed to every instance of what post I was actually thinking of and they do indeed exist -- just, you know, as your posts. They're scummy posts from anybody in the context they happened, though I had remembered (and alluded to!) an existing pressure that I also couldn't place for Critter.

Placed it pretty ably in your case.

So what we see here is you...
Deflecting from yourself when given some breathing room after an extremely high pressure situation, apparently in order to (unsuccessfully) create a nonexistent 1v1. (Wish you had managed it, too, I sure do want to hear from StrangeMatter!)
Denying all evidence provided when I give quotes, to the point of denying that it even could have happened. (That doesn't look very good for you now.)
Confidently proclaiming I have a goal in mind (which I've never hidden) that has no town basis. (Which is wrong -- because I am plainly, obviously, to anyone with eyes to see, not doing what you're accusing me of.)
Asking questions that go nowhere, and never following up on them when they are ignored, which is obvious flail.

So. How are you not scum? I mean, not that you can convince /me/ otherwise, but you deserve a right to a trial by a jury of your peers -- and as it happens, here they are.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Look at that pagetop, now imagine if I'd also sniped 420 back when I made 421. At that point I'd demand to be reflavored to game fuel or riot

(I can't be held accountable, she put it in my head.)

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I never pushed StrangeMatter.

And where did I claim you did? Find that statement.

Or admit you are trying to suggest something happened that did not, /like you are accusing me of/. Because it would be way less time consuming for you and might earn you some respect on your way to your now-inevitable elimination.

As for the question flail... next post I make.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Do you have any opinions on anything?

We're not having a very good time working from memory lately. That was the only one I pulled from memory.

As it happens, the real culprit there is one you yourself pointed out -- bear-pair was dropping garbo questions and not even following up on them. My bad there.

The rest holds and is more than enough to bury you.



PEDIT: ...No, Dunn, its the same claim I've BEEN making since back when I thought it was Critter doing that.

There's another component too, the good ol' "let's you and them fight", pitting me as scum vs. innocent StrangeMatter while maintaining a distance from the interaction themselves.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Quoting 351 was a mistake. I realized as soon as I did that I wasn't seeing the questions I was thinking of. My bad for leaving that there.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

SM is almost certainly scum with that iso

THANK you, god damn.

It's pretty hard to sell that myself, but if someone whose brain isn't made of mildew and nematodes sees it too, maybe they'll be able to make the argument more gracefully than I can.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

SM is almost certainly scum with that iso

THANK you, god damn.

It's pretty hard to sell that myself, but if someone whose brain isn't made of mildew and nematodes sees it too, maybe they'll be able to make the argument more gracefully than I can.

I’d sheep an SM wagon but I think there is a scum in Dunn/Kyo. Kyo’s slot has burned the cred Toog built.

Implying toog had cred, that slot was cringe. I'm not sold on SM being scum from a first read, I believe english is not his first language and that he's relatively new to forum mafia. Actually strikes me as a potentially easy mislim for scum so I'm suspicious of vague pushes on them at this point. There are plenty of players under the radar so far, and the focus on SM feels like it could be telling.

Wisdom and StrangeMatter are the two I'm most wanting to get content out of right now, but StrangeMatter is the one I turned attention to first because I didn't like the boneless posting, so I'm sticking with that. Wisdom is probably scummier but I trust someone else can press there. If not, well, this is gonna be a long game for me.

Beyond that, I agree that Toog was acting like scum saving a buddy by shading the IC before you replaced in, and I have no idea what Critter is talking about.

You? You can be town for the moment. If nothing else, you're not breaking things that should work properly (like the IC not being tilted), and providing lots of content to nitpick at you about later.


I've already stayed up too late tonight, appointment tomorrow, someone do me a favor and keep pounding the StrangeMatter drum until something of substance comes out or I find a few spare moments to come back in. Whichever comes first. Also, Dunn's scum.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Not getting much out of me today, just a quick catchup post.

Dunn's still scum. Not letting that one go.

Critter, I also want to sort SM, but with so little to go on there's too much noise. I need more data, which means more content. If I'm just squashing the slot under pressure, something will eventually come out. Or they halt, catch fire and fall into the dead thread early on, which is a totally preventable disease under these circumstances so I am incapable of feeling guilty about it.

Wisdom, I don't have the time to give you the back and forth you need to be sortable. I have too much RL shit for the next day or so. Someone else who has time can smash you for content, and I'll make up my mind on you later. And if no one decides to do it, I'll need to push you myself, sure. But I don't want to be the dumbass who carries town on content extraction, then pushes green early and loses all credibility. No, I want to blow all my credibility on one big left-field push later in the game, you know?

But there's another way. Produce content of your own accord and I won't need to squash you to extract it. Then no one else needs to sprain their pinkies, and you remain push-free -- it's just sensible procedure.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Oh! And Wisdom?

Posting contextless reads is not content. Have more than a single, solitary nuanced opinion. Nitpick semantics. Start a pointless fight. Something, anything that gives other people something to go off of.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Wisdom doesn't have content, but StrangeMatter doesn't either. As it happens, I pushed StrangeMatter first because it seemed more fruitful, and now that I've committed I'm not about to change my mind. Is it ideal play? Probably not! Is it play that will get some sort of results? Yeah, as soon as I have more than an hour or two of free time in a day. Sooner, if StrangeMatter realizes I have a tendency to not let go of dumb little things like "not jumping the second I say the word," "hyperposting," and "ever having a single post that can't be parsed as meaningful content." (Death Curse vets are either giggling or shuddering right now. Maybe both! I really do hope both.)

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Oh yeah, and in case it wasn't clear, Critter, those three examples of things I don't let go of are historical examples, not stuff SM is doing.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Last check-in before bedtime.

Critter, I also want to sort SM, but with so little to go on there's too much noise. I need more data, which means more content.

If I'm just squashing the slot under pressure

, something will eventually come out. Or they halt, catch fire and fall into the dead thread early on, which is a totally preventable disease under these circumstances so I am incapable of feeling guilty about it.

What do you even mean by pressure??? The only thing you're doing is voting, which I know that questions and voting are two different forms of pressure, but of the two right now, one I would consider being more useful. Because right now, it feels like you, Wisdom, and Critter are doing nothing in actual terms of pressure.

If you want to squeeze content out of someone, you better make sure you're actually doing it and not faking it like what it feels like now.

Huh. I had no idea. I wonder if there's some reason that might be? One I've mentioned repeatedly and in detail in regards to a number of things?

I wonder.



But I'm going to let you have this one, because I'm about to teach you an important lesson.

Votes can be pressure, sure. So can questions.

But there is a secret path. Where you simply irritate the everlasting shit out of your target by bringing up their name over and over and doing nothing with it.

And here we are! Here YOU are.



But hey, I live to please. If you want questions, questions you will have.

Why haven't you taken any stance in this game despite at least THREE notable 1v1s the early dayphase pivoted on and multiple points of contention before, during and after?
Why did it take you this long to engage how I was playing directly instead of saying, effectively, "I didn't do it"?
Why does your ISO look like a barren field?
Why are you not scum?

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I'm up early so I can put some time into this today. Later tonight, forget it. Tomorrow ought to be spotty but well-rounded for me, and I should have time from then on (Sundays excepted).

Out of this situation, I think the bear pair looks just as scummy as before they tried this weird troll-claim shit, but Gamma looks like he's trying to copy LLD's burn-down of Dunn's slot earlier in the game. Either this game and playerlist lend themselves to repetition or it's some transparent scum play -- look for what works and repeat.

I don't think this is SvS, though, and I don't think it's TvT. I think these two slots are opposite in alignment, but from the flow of conversation I have a hard time telling who's scum and who's town. I'm inclined to say the bears are more scummy right now, but I might be letting an inertial bias affect that (I townread Gamma previously and scumread the bears).


I find Critter pushing me the way I push SM very funny. It'll get results more quickly from me, though, because I have nothing to hide. What did you see, Critter? I don't need your own words, though if you want to provide them instead I'm cool with that. What /post/, even? Because I am absolutely certain you're latching onto me being clever with words or a playstyle thing that everyone familiar with me will say "yeah, that's about right for her town play". I'm happy to break whatever you want down for you.

And then, after that, I'll let StrangeMatter go and start juicing you instead. Have you read Death Curse? You should have read Death Curse. Instead, I guess I'll recreate it in realtime, with you playing the part of Zdenek/Fred. You already had my attention, now you're running a contextless push on me, and that makes you my new favorite hobby.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Oh right, Dunn moved back to null for me. But that slot is on thin ice. I made the mistake of forgetting Day 1 slipups before, but I will not forget this time.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I'm up early so I can put some time into this today. Later tonight, forget it. Tomorrow ought to be spotty but well-rounded for me, and I should have time from then on (Sundays excepted).

Out of this situation, I think the bear pair looks just as scummy as before they tried this weird troll-claim shit, but Gamma looks like he's trying to copy LLD's burn-down of Dunn's slot earlier in the game. Either this game and playerlist lend themselves to repetition or it's some transparent scum play -- look for what works and repeat.

I don't think this is SvS, though, and I don't think it's TvT. I think these two slots are opposite in alignment, but from the flow of conversation I have a hard time telling who's scum and who's town. I'm inclined to say the bears are more scummy right now, but I might be letting an inertial bias affect that (I townread Gamma previously and scumread the bears).


I find Critter pushing me the way I push SM very funny. It'll get results more quickly from me, though, because I have nothing to hide. What did you see, Critter? I don't need your own words, though if you want to provide them instead I'm cool with that. What /post/, even? Because I am absolutely certain you're latching onto me being clever with words or a playstyle thing that everyone familiar with me will say "yeah, that's about right for her town play". I'm happy to break whatever you want down for you.

And then, after that, I'll let StrangeMatter go and start juicing you instead. Have you read Death Curse? You should have read Death Curse. Instead, I guess I'll recreate it in realtime, with you playing the part of Zdenek/Fred. You already had my attention, now you're running a contextless push on me, and that makes you my new favorite hobby.

No. As I said it’s antitown to say in case I am wrong. I am okay with your wagon not going through then for today. If I die then susses on you. I don’t think I die over 1-2 cop claims and a macho IC so I have time to convince people and see if my thought is accurate.

Hey, you know what? Cool. You can be my hobby when you want to be my hobby then. To paraphrase the Principia Discordia, I'm a mirror: when a sage looks in, a fool stares back. If you really don't wanna play, I'll bide my time. For now.

Also, point to make: I was saying you should have read Death Curse because it would prepare you for what to expect. Not in terms of my alignment, meta is garbage -- but in terms of my playstyle. Also, I like alluding to that game since a large portion of the playerlist was also in it, and I was a miserable, giggling shitgremlin the entire time. I want them to wince, because it tickles me AND it might make them fall into predictable patterns if they keep being made to think of it, which is useful to me.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Skimming VFT's 771 now, I think I'm picking up an honest set of judgement calls here, which I feel is NAI based on style used to type them out.

I agree the frustration with Gamma seemed townie, but her thought process was crap, I think. It felt as much like a scum fake-CC as it did a legitimate one. But having ruminated, I think I agree that Gamma is the town in that 1v1 (I categorically reject any suggestion those two are the same alignment).

I'm willing to let Towelie coast, I'm feeling similar honesty about RL issues there as I've been trying to get across with my own posts about my limited availability. (Part of why I was letting you two coast as well. It's a bias, but the hope is it's one that won't bite me too badly.)

I am not willing to comment on EMMI at this time except to say I am not willing to comment on EMMI at this time. I ask only that the userlist please speculate wildly and get in a fight about my motivations.

I've noticed what you're saying about Dunn, but the early game from him stumbled HARD and I'm unwilling to give it a complete pass. I'm curious what you see there that overshadows, or maybe even explains(?) the early garbage play.

Finally, surrounded by a bunch about which I have nothing of value to say (other than I'm coming for Wisdom and Something_Smart eventually), your point on StrangeMatter is my point on StrangeMatter. Gold star. Glad you could explain my feelings for me (no, really, thank you). With that, maybe we can get some re-evaluation from others? Anyone?

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Isn’t death curse stupidly long
I’m not gonna read it just for some idea of your play style when you should be readable enough in this game

It is indeed absurdly long! But again, I have more than one reason to bring it up, and I even explained all of them for you this time, and I wasn't even addressing you. Where'd this come from?

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I categorically reject any suggestion those two are the same alignment

Too bad because they are

The only way you can be absolutely certain about this is if your role PM is red.

Would you like to reword that statement? Or would you like to become my new best friend? Oh, I hope it's the second one! I promise it will be fun. For me, anyway.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Wisdom, it's not a scumread. You literally cannot know that for certain on Day 1 unless your role PM is red. This is a logical necessity. The only way you can derive that information is if you know the alignments of all players involved.

The only way you know the alignments of all players involved is if you are scum, since there are two factions and you know all the scum.

QED, if you state that with certainty those two are TvT, you are scum.

Do you state with certainty that those two are TvT? Make a stance, don't deflect or use weasel words. Yes or no.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Mush i have no fucking clue what youre trying to do in 797

There's a difference between feeling confident in a read and being certain about alignment.

If there's no room for Wisdom to be wrong, then they have knowledge, and this is a case where that knowledge necessitates Wisdom being scum.

I have no idea how everyone else is missing this. But hey, it's good enough for me for right now. VOTE: Wisdom

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Pronoun fuckup in prior post was only noticed after posting -- I reworded that sentence a number of times. Apologies.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Wisdom, it's not a scumread. You literally cannot know that for certain on Day 1 unless your role PM is red. This is a logical necessity. The only way you can derive that information is if you know the alignments of all players involved.

The only way you know the alignments of all players involved is if you are scum, since there are two factions and you know all the scum.

QED, if you state that with certainty those two are TvT, you are scum.

Do you state with certainty that those two are TvT? Make a stance, don't deflect or use weasel words. Yes or no.

fwiw i think you're conflating 'being very confident in my reads' with 'i know (due to my role pm) that 2 people are tvt'
(and i think it's a given that wisdom meant it in the former and not the latter)

I made it very clear that I was referring to the latter, while making room for him to claim the former. That he didn't is concerning, in my eyes. I made it abundantly clear what my meaning was and even hinted to the correct answer, but here we are.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Mush i have no fucking clue what youre trying to do in 797

There's a difference between feeling confident in a read and being certain about alignment.

If there's no room for Wisdom to be wrong, then they have knowledge, and this is a case where that knowledge necessitates Wisdom being scum.

I have no idea how everyone else is missing this. But hey, it's good enough for me for right now. VOTE: Wisdom

This is NAI for Wisdom
best way to catch Wisdom is probably when we get some flips and can see the paper trial of what slots he's pushed

I both believe you and have no intention of letting go of this. Granted, I mostly intend to let it fester, for the moment, because I have a bit more than two hours to figure out what I'm doing about a very important RL situation.

We'll see if I ramp things up tomorrow.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Wait, wait. I thought you didn't want to play, Critter?

Because if you were telling me a lie there, I'm going to have to figure out a way to make this dayphase extra special, just for you. I don't actually have any ideas yet, but good things come to those who wait.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

@MUSH, can you talk to me about your read on SS?

- lilith

Thoughts are insufficient data. I literally woke up, ran down the stairs and went to the bank so I need some time to get my bearings. Best recollection is I don’t have enough to go on, though, which makes me want to squish it.

I’ll ISO and get my brain spinning while I eat.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Well, that was depressing. I don't have food I can just sit down and cogitate with, I don't even have caffeine, and Something_Smart's ISO is Something_Ugly.

To be a bit more clear, it's almost as barren as StrangeMatter's ISO, but it also asks other players to direct pushes and rarely (if ever) takes any meaningful stance. A few things even seem to be pulled from elsewhere judging by how they're used and how they stand out against the general background radiation of lifelessly going through the motions. Going to say he's probable scum, but I'm willing to humor him for today, since he's committed to activity today.

My presence will be spotty for today myself, but I should be more present than I have earlier in the dayphase. For now, I have breakfast to cook. Don't get excited: my breakfast is Something_Depressing.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I can sorta see it. MAAAYBE.

Something_Smart, do you prefer the KISS principle or having as many pots boiling as you can manage, when it comes to mafia?

[MUSHSHAGANA]

In what sense? I definitely support keeping things simple wherever possible (when it comes to dayplay, anyway), but I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the boiling pots line or why that's the opposite of simplicity.

Ah. I meant having a lot of different things going on. I tend towards trying to keep a lot happening, so I have a wide variety of angles to approach from fluidly. Your approach being more centered on simplicity does make it make sense that you would be stepping back a bit. I hope to see that change today.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Well, that was disappointing.

Today just sort of burned down around me, despite my best efforts, sorry everyone. Business to see to, caffeine deprivation, and unexpected tasks RL side just smashed my time. I also struggled with motivation when I had time. Not the game, I don't think, I think it's the caffeine, but we'll see... I sure hope I'm not becoming a low-effort player, my posting style is too bombastic and weird to fit the bill -- I'll come across like a bad middle manager, and then where will I be?



With the lack of motivation my plotting and scheming is sort of unravelling before my eyes, so I'm going to go digging in a bit to see if I find anything useful to get back into the game. For the sake of posterity (and because whatever plots I had in mind are just lost now) I'll post a reads list that is 100% true as of right now, then just elaborate and correct when I reread. Reverse posting order because I can't think for shit and it's easy to do with the activity viewer thing.

Critter probably town? I have a bunch of nagging ghosts of doubts but nothing concrete is coming to me off the top of my head. Task for the reread.

Something_Smart nowhere on the rankings. I was hoping for more today, maybe I even got it and didn't realize in my hazy-brained state.

Gamma absolutely town.

Towelie... I don't have any thoughts on, and that's bad because I remember reading large posts. Another reread item.

ssbm. Hm. See, I think I agree that Toog pinged me all the wrong ways, but ssbm has done very well in recovering from that slide. I don't know what to make of so many players saying the absolute polar opposite was true for them.

Cabd. Confmod.

Wisdom ... I can't parse still. I don't know what is going on with that slot and I don't like not understanding what a slot is doing. I try and figure out things like that by crushing them.

VFT have only just started easing into the game, I'm unwilling to make any firm commitments there, but I like calling it town play for now.

EMMI was one I had some sort of plot lined out for, but I don't know what it was anymore. Doesn't really matter: lurkscum for sure, squash it like a bug.

The bears are irritatingly jokey, and I find it IMPOSSIBLE to distinguish the two heads. I just cannot parse that ISO and trying causes me actual pain right now. I hate their garbage pseudo-claim and I hate the way they dropped it early on D1 and I hate even more that doing this and getting away with it all feels well within the power of any hydra that includes Noraa as a head.

Dunn's sort of disappeared? I am very waffly on Dunn. It falls into what I call a read superposition: I have a very strong opinion on Dunn, and as soon as I decide which one it is, it's in for the game.

LLD. ConfIC and probably going to be very helpful for getting my bearings after this fog passes -- both as a known town slot and as someone whose mind makes some sort of sense to me.

StrangeMatter has been gone longer than anyone, and I'm still leaning heavy on scum there.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

and I hate even more that doing this and getting away with it all feels well within the power of any hydra that includes Noraa as a head.

I think it’s even more of a sin for Pooky tbh

I mean... Pooky shitposts like a champ, but Noraa's scum game is just rock solid. Even if Pooky couldn't wiggle free on "lighten up, I'm having a giggle" grounds Noraa could probably misdirect or argue her case, make the person pressing her look like scum, fake-guilty a townie along the line, and still make it into most people's reads as "yeah looks town to me" after two green flips behind her.

They're a pretty formidable combination, and that is in fact why I hate their ISO so much.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I almost nominated Pooky for Don Corleone last year (was too lazy to actually write the post up) and am considering trying again this year (again, depends on my will to actually write something up)
He’s good at scum, TRUST ME.

Okay, okay. I haven't seen his scum game, I'll let you have this one.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Explaining more is antitown but in a few days it will be obvious or I will explain it

this game could probably use a little more transparency from like...everyone, esp if you want that lim today

-b

I'm just noting here that with my complete loss of ability to play the way I want, you'll be getting more of that from me moving forward.

Also, tangent time, I figured out what my issue is. I'm quitting smoking, and I ran out today and keep forgetting I have lozenges. As such, this level of brain function is for the rest of the game probably.

I'll be beginning my reread in the next hour.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I think I don't like where Critter has gone recently, and my reread is going to take a slight scum bias given... all of this.

Also! An exoskeleton's still a skeleton, I'm full boneless, COME AND GET ME.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

VOTE: Critter

"Town cohesion"
vs
"No, stop talking to other players and just get in line"

I'd rather sit on this instead of Wisdom right now.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Reread Critter ISO and ...ugh. I'm glad I voted there. It's a lot of getting ultra-defensive of light-to-nonexistent pressure, and then pushing whoever hasn't already had a wagon built on them and asking for folks to jump on board without further explanation. Bad look. There's almost nothing that could be considered proper scumhunting (granted, I think that's true of the majority of players right now, self included!) and several bizarre detours -- ssbm got a push, then me, and then back to ssbm when literally begging for people to wagon me failed, for example.

I think bears also flip red, but I think Critter can escape certain doom easier than they can, so long as we remember it's Pooky and Noraa we're dealing with. Not run-of-the-mill scum.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

And immediately after I post part one of what was going to be a multi part reread, the meds are kicking in. I have caffeine for tomorrow, we'll see if it helps me play more.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

@MUSH

@MUSH, can you talk to me about your read on SS?

- lilith

Thoughts are insufficient data. I literally woke up, ran down the stairs and went to the bank so I need some time to get my bearings. Best recollection is I don’t have enough to go on, though, which makes me want to squish it.

I’ll ISO and get my brain spinning while I eat.

"Insufficient data" seems different to me than what you had said before about SS:

Welp.

Calling Dunn flipping red. Regardless of flip, I also like the bears for scum right now.

Eyes on Critter, Something_Smart, StrangeMatter.

Basically I can tell he’s being sarcastic

Oh no. I think you misunderstand me. I am saying he’s scum because it’s sarcastic. I read it like Valley Girl tone of “Guess you’re the only person who reads matter”. It’s a put down to M while subtly agreeing that something I did was scummy.

I'd say deniably, not subtly, at the very most. I read it more like buddying you. Either way, because Something_Smart jumped too early (whoopsie doodle!), I got what I wanted out of this -- reads gathered include you town, Something_Smart leaning scum, Gamma leaning town, StrangeMatter hovering (which indicates scum for me if it goes on too long).

VOTE: StrangeMatter

But I don't want to wait for that to resolve. My read of StrangeMatter is that I'll be here awhile if I want to wait for it to happen. So I'm gonna shove here and see what gives, instead.


PEDIT: Well, looks like you got away from the "subtly" language at least.

has something changed that made you back off from your initial read?

- lilith

Not in the game, but yeah, something has changed. Yesterday I ran out of cigarettes and I've been downhill mentally ever since. That's legit what changed -- I don't remember half of my reads or reasons for those reads and I have awful brain fog now. Sorry, I know this looks bad for me but it's what I got. I have a reread I said I'd complete yesterday before meds bit me, so I'll see if I can explain myself in the reread, but I wouldn't count on it.... all my plots and schemes are gone, poof.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I think bears also flip red,

but I think Critter can escape certain doom easier than they can, so long as we remember it's Pooky and Noraa we're dealing with. Not run-of-the-mill scum.

don't really like this considering M&M had i think 3 votes at this point when you hopped on critter as (i believe) the first vote, unless you have a difference in confidence levels here, which i don't get from this post. I'm not sure what the underlined part means, esp since the qualifier "M&M are capable scum players" doesn't seem to support the assertion you're making that critter has an easier time potentially wiggling out of this

-b

Never mind this, Critter got the promised effect, so I'm gonna call it on this. ssbm sucks now and I don't like it.

For future reference, I think Critter is as manipulative and cunning as either of the bear-pair, and has the benefit of less familiarity with the player list (thus getting benefit of the doubt). If Critter's scum, I think Critter would be able to get out of a sticky position much easier than the Norky Bears as scum could against people who already doubt them, primarily for the lack of familiarity.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I actually haven’t yet. I am manipulative as scum and I am not but I don’t know you? *confused eyeball stare*

I think you're manipulative as either alignment, Critter. I think you try and keep it on the downlow, but you're still manipulative. That makes you dangerous as scum. And no, we don't know each other, this is just a judgment call based on what I see of your play here. I don't use meta for players I haven't played with, and I don't even like using it then. It's a crutch where my normal ability to play fails, not a primary tool.

Also, I'm glad my worse-than-usual memory kept my vote on you if you didn't get the promised effect from ssbm, since I distrust you even more now. (Also I don't know what the hell an invest is and MS wiki isn't helpful with it.)

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I'm unwilling to make any firm commitments there, but I like calling it town play for now.

Why's that?

My head is full of television static right now. I like calling it town play because it means I don't have to worry about it right this second.

PEDIT: Oh, wow. I should have figured that out. Wow. I'm just gonna... I'll be back later.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I don't even know what the hell to think here anymore. This is just... all too much for my short-circuited brain.

There's like 3 people I trust to give me the gamestate straight right now. LLD, Gamma, and VFT. What am I seeing?

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I don't even know what the hell to think here anymore. This is just... all too much for my short-circuited brain.

There's like 3 people I trust to give me the gamestate straight right now. LLD, Gamma, and VFT. What am I seeing?

We’ve got slots that seem close-to-consensus scum but no real traction on any

Which btw I think the day’s run its course a bit so I’d appreciate if we could consolidate, keeping this day under 60 pages would be solid IMO

So who do we kill and why should they die?

Because right now I'm seeing fragmentation consistent with what you're saying but worse than you seem to be saying. There's so much friction on every wagon, pretty much every slot people would kill has 3 or 4 people willing to say "are you drunk??? we are not eliminating that" and none of them seem willing or able to explain why.

I'm hoping laying it out as "these are who we are killing" will narrow the field somewhat and get people to say why they won't kill there.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Kyouko, EMMI, StrangeMatter
Let’s narrow it down to 3 slots

Can folks tell me why we don’t eliminate these slots? I don’t see any reason not to go with any of these three, and I don’t disagree with Gamma on keeping the day short.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Go for it.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I'm exhausted and my brain is fuzzier than ever, but I still follow this argument. I don't like Wisdom or Critter much still, but I accept the point as valid.

That said, I'm struggling to post anything of even minimal value right now and the opposition from that corner (Critter and Wisdom) makes me want to be like "fuck you, read me when I don't give you anything" on top of it. So I am going to keep my ass planted until LLD is ready to get me to shift, and I'll try and evaluate which of the two slots is most likely to be the scum of the pair in the meantime.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Jesus I missed everything I feel like.

VOTE: Venus Fly Trap Pretty sure I'm not hammering here, I did check. E-2? Looks like E-2. Should be clear. Bit paranoid since I thought folks hammered Dunn earlier.

I have some thoughts to give here soon, I think. Brain's more functional than earlier today.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

So I really don't like Critter.

I have been back and forth on Critter and Wisdom because I think ssbm was right about those two not being red together (too much apparent coordination), and I gave a good think where I thought the scum lay in that pair.

I think that my problem with Wisdom is primarily a playstyle mismatch combined with Wisdom's general posting style being close to the sort of wording that's used by all the little doubts I have in my head that are loud about how I'm dragging the game down singlehandedly with my brainfog... Put bluntly, it's my damage. It's not AI, it's just something that pushes my internal buttons, and I'm not about to ask Wisdom to change everything about his posting for my sake.

Critter feels subversive. There's a lot of talk about town cohesion, bringing the town together, but when side-conversations occur about his slot, he starts tearing it up and driving wedges to spike the conversation dead. It's very... self-centered? play, which isn't necessarily anti-town, but what gets me is how when trying to direct/command/lead town it's very go-us, work-together, deadline-is-near, and when it comes to his slot it's very this-is-a-bad-idea, stop-saying-that, you'll-regret-this. There's no trust for players to come to equilibrium with specifically his own personal slot in particular.

But that's not to say it's only his slot he does it with. I also see the same thing going on with regard to ssbm. Don't debate! Don't ask questions! Just Vote!

Maybe it's my tendency to question authorities in general but I distrust Critter because of this playstyle. It's demanding but gives no regard for the far side. It's incoherent when comparing the big picture against local events. And I have a gut feeling that I just don't like Critter's play at all.



LLD wants VFT, so we're going to crush VFT today. But I want to voice my thoughts on Critter in strong terms while I have a clear mind.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

This is really hard to follow for me even with brain functioning. Let me be clear about the little bit I picked up on.

Even given the POV that VFT is offering for Critter, I note Critter isn't giving any other people who may be unclaimed PRs the time to put together their own plans. This isn't me softing -- it's saying that the viewpoint you're putting out there for Critter is at odds with Critter's own play, especially when Critter is this aware /of/ other PRs being in the game, and Critter already saw someone accusing me of doing the logical outcome of following your assertion to its conclusion would be (i.e. Something_Smart saying "my goal is the only one that matters" sarcastically).

Also, Critter is demanding town cohesion without allowing town to cohere naturally. They're trying to force the cohesion. I don't see a PR who has utility in doing that deciding to willingly draw that much attention to themselves, as VFT is suggesting is the case. It is, however, probably the only case where ssbm's talking about outing Critter's supposed softclaims in a strategic manner actually makes more sense than leaving well enough alone -- but that's not a good thing by any means for Critter no matter who or what they are in terms of role.

However, I am at this time satisfied that LLD made a good pick for elimination target.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I keep rewriting sentences partially and fucking pronouns up in the process -- originally I had written "but that's not a good thing for anyone playing in a way that necessitates it, no matter who or what they are in terms of role.", changed the front half to call out Critter specifically for brevity, and didn't correct the back half. Sorry to Critter, I'm normally better about this.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Critter, my brain is in no state to lead town. This isn't a defense, I'm so far out of my meta that anyone who trusts in meta should be calling for me to die today no questions asked, and I both recognize that and literally cannot do anything about it since it is due to forces beyond my control or anyone else's right now. I'm barely functional enough to read the game and make decisions for myself about what I'm reading. I'm visibly fucking up basic stuff when I write up my posts on a regular basis. I'm not leading town, that's a terrible idea right now and you of all people should see that for what it is, presuming you aren't red (which, for me, is presuming an awful lot right now).

Also! It isn't settling. I actually think it's a good decision. I had my doubts to start (mostly to do with VFT needing to get their bearings...), but seeing how VFT conducted themselves since the pick has proven the point for me.

Finally! Yeah, I'm active-lurking. What would you do if your brain suddenly refused to function and you could no longer trust yourself to make fully-informed decisions in the game? If nothing else I'm not willing to rally town behind a blatantly obviously doomed march like the world's most disastrous conga-line.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

And since I just realized it might bear some explanation: I'm still bringing up what I see despite my current impairment because I often see things other people don't. If everyone is like "well, whatever", I don't trust myself enough to press the issue with them. But I won't just remain totally silent on it because what if I do see something important? What if that wouldn't have been brought up? Would I be doing town any sort of service by keeping my mouth shut?

I'm asking you honestly. If you think I should shut the hell up and not chip in again for the game, you fuckin' got it. This is your one chance to buy my silence, Critter, and there will not be another.

If you don't think that, then you need to do more than act like I'm obviously out of my mind. You need to address my points.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

It feels like you’re trying to say “I am not capable”. If I was in your shoes I would stop attacking someone trying and build up what you want to see instead. Positivity is good.

You've given no one any reason to trust you. You've said one thing to everyone else: we need to build town cohesion. But any time someone tries to do that without centering what you're asking for to the exclusion of their own concerns and questions, you break it up. The problem isn't you being self-centered, town does that all the time. It's you talking out of both sides of your mouth.

So here's another question I'm asking you honestly. Do we all sheep you blindly or do we build up our own reads and decide who we trust and distrust organically amongst ourselves?

Take your stand, right here, right now.

And mark my words, I will push your wagon with my bogged down brain and all if you say we need to come together organically and then step all over that shit another fucking time, like you've done over and over and over in the back half of this day to date.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Whatever chaos unfolds from this new information, I am demanding a response to my last post. I don't care who is who, because meta means nothing to me. I want to see town able to cohere without some two-headed beast lurking in the center and proclaiming to all and sundry: "TOWN MUST COHERE! NO NOT LIKE THAT!" That's what I want.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I'm glad to wake up and see LLD hinting at my exact thoughts about Critter/VFT.

I don't have much else to say about things right now other than:
I like Critter less and less over time (incredible feat at this stage),
I don't like VFT much and they aren't doing any heroics I trust to pull them out of the fire,
I /really/ like ssbm (except that outing alts is poor form IMO),
and I think StrangeMatter, EMMI, bears, Dunn is where scum 3 is at right now.

Having second thoughts on bears. Both EMMI and StrangeMatter are blatantly ignoring that people want to make them the elimination soon. Dunn's dropped off a cliff in activity, I feel like.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I don’t care what you like or don’t like about my play, Critter. I’m not playing for you.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Gamma, Something_Smart’s list there makes more sense in context as you go, I feel. It’s given more depth later, and it was given under the understanding that it was functionally worthless for most purposes. Granted, I have a barely functional brain, woke up a half hour or so ago, and haven’t eaten yet, so... make your own conclusions, of course. Just saying what I saw.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

(Ahem. There's also the fact that Critter's my-way-only playstyle has made it so I can't even really try to evolve reads on any slot unless they're interacting with him, and any and all good-faith attempts to force him to commit to letting other people have space to play shit through have been dismissed, misconstrued or outright ignored.)

[MUSHSHAGANA]

What I find weird about StrangeMatter is they don't feel like they're reading the actual game... they feel like they're name-searching.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Accusing me of flavorhunting, Critter? Find one fucking instance. One. Go for it, I'm waiting for you. You find one I'll self vote and push my own wagon to the finish line and that's a promise.

You won't, because it didn't happen. VFT is it for today, but leaving you alive is criminal. Get in the scumpit, and don't try climbing out, lying about my goddamn play like that.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

My push on you is because you beg for one thing, town cohesion, get in the way of the town cohering without you, then play it off like it's all about your play being self centered.

You want town to cohere, then get out of the damn way and let it happen. You want to be the center of attention, then I'll give you that by pushing your wagon. You don't get to have it both damn ways, and I can't stand playing around you because you keep trying to regardless and then have the audacity to call me fucking scum for trying to wake you up to the reality that your demands are at the bare minimum counterproductive and hypocritical and at worst actively allowing scum to position themselves in the game while everyone's too busy trying to work around your nettlesome, incessant demands.

Pick. One.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Prior post at Critter.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Because I like to think I know LLD as a person and a player, and I think I see what she sees, Critter. Is that insufficient? Should I only vote a slot if I am the only fucking person who thinks its scum? What about that town cohesion if so? PICK ONE DAMN THING. You cannot have both things! You fucking can't. PICK JUST ONE.

NO, Critter, your demands are for Towelie and VFT to stop talking about you and coming to their own conclusions on your slot to fully center your demands. Your demands are for anyone who wants a slot that isn't ssbm or me for today to stop being scummy. Your demands are INCOMPATIBLE WITH TOWN COHERENCE.

PICK ONE FUCKING THING.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Kyouko get on emmi

We will lim her without lld

In what world does voting EMMI, a lurking slot, do anything??

This is why Strange is town, btw.

This perspective taking is super town.

I have to agree with that, yeah. I don't know, it's not enough to convince me, but I trust you believe in your own reads for a reason, and I have a handicap this game.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Why is VFT town, Wisdom?

[MUSHSHAGANA]

If you won't give a reason, Wisdom, then I won't bother believing a word you have to say.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

It's not blind but thanks so much for believing I am incapable of making my own decisions.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I agree that one looks sorta town. But that was a long time ago... one of the very first meaningful VFT posts in the entire game. That doesn't account for an extended spiral of increasingly weird, on-edge posts after LLD made her decision. I haven't seen more than maybe one vaguely townish post from VFT since Page 55.

I'm not saying people don't change when under pressure, that's obviously wrong. But I understand alignments better when people are under pressure as a general rule, and VFT under pressure smells like scum.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I'd personally HEAVILY prefer Critter to VFT, but with Critter stepping back I have to admit that's, in part, bias from just how disruptive Critter was to my attempting to make sense of the game.

I think VFT has (recently) felt more like scum at a gut level to me, though Critter has been more overt in scumminess.

In terms of raw flip data aggregation... I think Critter vs ssbm isn't theater or bussing, so I think a Critter flip is instructive there. I think a red VFT flip is also instructive on Critter, though, as well as giving some information on Towelie ... so a VFT flip is probably strictly better than a Critter flip.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I'm trying to engage the game in good fucking faith, Wisdom, so if you have no intention of doing that you can get in the scumpit with Critter and let the rest of us play the damn game.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Wisdom, you've given NO ONE any reason to believe your reads are anything but pulled clean out of your ass. You could be rolling dice on the other side of the keyboard for all we know. How about, you know, showing the tiniest bit of reasoning for what you're trying to push instead of assuming that just repeating yourself and shading people who disagree will get results? How about instead of openly fucking mocking players who are trying to make arguments, come to conclusions and understand each other, you actually work with the other people in the goddamn game?

PEDIT: Critter...you make this game fucking miserable. I was starting to actually be able to focus my energy on the game instead of all the nonsense you create in your wake, but here you goddamn go again.

If LLD says we eliminate you, I will not shed a single tear, no matter what the flip is. You contribute nothing but noise and you contribute it by the boatload. You don't work with anyone and you don't let anyone work with anyone who isn't you, it's the same bullshit Wisdom gives except you're way louder about it. I /inned on this game to play a goddamn Mafia game, not have to suffer through this anti-town maximum-noise-ratio nonsense.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I don't even know who the hell you are, Critter. To the best of my knowledge we have never played a game together. I haven't read a single link to another game posted in this thread. I'm saying what I see with my own two eyes, goddamnit.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Critter, I have nothing to get out of lying about this, so whatever. You wanna run this game into the ground, be my fucking guest. I have no interest in trying to get anything done with you getting in the way, inserting yourself in the middle of every discussion, making demands that you yourself make impossible to meet, everything else it is you've done this game. If you refuse to believe that I'm not just saying that because of some shit about what your main plays like, the only thing I get out of that is elevated fucking blood pressure. I'm trying to quit smoking, I don't need this shit.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I'm staying on the IC's preference. VFT's the one that can be pushed through most likely, it's one I like better than EMMI, and honestly, I just don't want to give Wisdom or Critter a single fucking thing at this point out of pure petty spite.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

If anyone who was there for Death Curse isn't sure why people need to fear Noraa, they need to go reread Death Curse.

"But she lost! And also that is so many pages I can't do it!"
1: Barely.
2: Exactly.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

If anyone who was there for Death Curse isn't sure why people need to fear Noraa, they need to go reread Death Curse.

"But she lost! And also that is so many pages I can't do it!"
1: Barely.
2: Exactly.

ok noraa looks nothing like death curse noraa like lolwut

Death Curse Noraa also looked nothing like Newbie 2028 Noraa, but both were scum.

Noraa's scum range is wider than you expect. I'm inclined to eliminate early by default.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I'm quitting smoking and my brain stopped working on me early in the dayphase. Gold star for noticing I'm not my usual self, I guess? (According to the internet my brain should be normal again late next week, but yeah.)

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Pooky, you won't convince me you two are town after the Jester Cop crap. I mean, I GUESS you could try, but you won't succeed. Someone who isn't you two might succeed, but that's not something you can influence. Sorry.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Pooky you have me doing meta reads on you and for this you will pay dearly (in the post game).

I was going to post a lot more here but in the midstn of cooking food smashed one finger and nearly set my opposite hand on fikre so fuck that this is what youj get

[MUSHSHAGANA]

mostly okay but one whole finger is out of commission and t looks like i actually burnt the fingertips on the other hand so i cant type easy there so im going to be typi g like this and ignoring my typos for a bit and my moods gonna be real foul till its all heaed so im maybe gonna keep distance from the thrrad for while

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I don’t think scum are unhappy with the gamestate so the rest of that doesn’t follow.

last time i checked i don't make arguments based on your reads

I really, really wish you could lay off trying to filter everyone else's opinions through your perception of the gamestate.

It makes it fucking impossible to talk to you.

-b

That’s not based on my reads.
There’s a lack of communication.
The gamestate is not healthy.
If you don’t base your reads based on how the game is there isn’t really another way to see it.

If I am looking at a dice and I see a 6 I can’t see not a 6 so you have to explain it.

I can’t magically hop into your shoes and see a 1 or 5.

So I say hey this 6 is reality. And explain it as such. I know that’s a thing.
If you think that 6 is not a reality Eg scum love this gamestate explain why
Then my reads change accordingly

Asking me just to “not think something” is not reasonable

this fuckig dude asks everyo e else to do th shit he should be doing like read your on fuckin posts take our own advice

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Hey my fingers work again and I have some shit to say

Hey! Hey Critter! Fuck you for saying I'm passively following LLD YET AGAIN!

Initially, sure, because I trust her and she's town ANYWAY, I did follow her. Since then I have seen a lot of weird ass fucking twists and turns from VFT that have dropped them from "Eh sure let's call it town" to "basement bullshit scum", THATS WHY I'M HAPPY TO STAY THERE. It looks like scum that don't know how to get out of a hole they put themselves in.

Don't even fucking try and tell me what I'm doing with my own fucking brain ever the hell again. You've done it like 5 times this game MINIMUM and if LLD didn't want you in the town block and I didn't feel confident in VFT I'd wagon your ass in a hot fucking second for that nonsense. I'm sick of it. Don't let it happen another goddamn time, PERIOD END OF STORY DO NOT TRY TO DISCUSS THIS WITH ME KEEP YOUR GODDAMN DISTANCE.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Moving SWIFTLY along, I hate Wisdom's play here and LLD, you gotta tell me why you're townreading this. It's just scum with a clear mind who doesn't like the bus from the POV of someone who also scumreads VFT.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

"basement bullshit scum", THATS WHY I'M HAPPY TO STAY THERE. It looks like scum that don't know how to get out of a hole they put themselves in.

What posts indicate this?

Ehh, I was exaggerating somewhat because Critter’s outright lies about my vote were driving me over the edge, but the general theme holds true. I’ll grab the posts in a bit, I have to eat some food and find my nicotine lozenges first. If you want to scan while I’m handling all that, the things to look for are desperation statements (recognizing a sense of futility) combined with incoherently changing reads and unbalanced player list engagement (e.g. more time spent on less immediately available players). Contrast against pre-LLD-push posting.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Wisdom, I was going to grab your posts (belatedly), but I realized it might all be for naught if I have to destroy every scrap of good will offered to me out of pure spite, so we will see how this pans out first.



Critter, whenever I see my name in a post of yours that's longer than about five words, it takes any task I had in mind for the thread, plucks it out of my brain, and replaces it with spent nuclear fuel rods.

This is an ultimatum.

Do not spew your outright lies about me anymore this dayphase, or I will turn this into a petty, spite-driven 1v1 and derail the entire game onto you versus me until one of us is gone. I don't care how this affects your ability to sort me or talk about me or whatever the fuck. I do not care. You will stop, or I will drag this whole burning trainwreck into the swamps of madness. I am fully capable of doing it, and your consistent assertion of utter bullshit about me makes me petty enough to override the usual safeguards like "respect for others" and "enjoyment of a game".

There will not be a second chance, I will not reconsider. This is the line. I am drawing it. Do. Fucking. Not.

We clear?

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Another FUCKING lie.

Scumreading me is fine, you aren't even the only one to do so, stop talking shit.

When you claim I am making shit up about my read on VFT when I could literally go into my ISO and pull the post I made when I went from "I don't like this but LLD said so" to "oh never mind this is scum"? That's a lie.

Critter, you know the difference between saying things as you see them and telling a lie? When you say things as you see them, you include room to be fucking wrong -- because you aren't omniscient and omnipresent. You don't know what I think in my fucking head. I certainly never thought "oh a scumread is unfun" -- saying I did is a lie, and your wording would make it a lie even if I did think that.

You wanna talk about me, you wanna scumread me even, what the fuck ever. But as soon as you start confidently saying I did things that I did not do or stating ANYTHING about my internal thoughts like you know a single goddamn thing that goes on in my head, you are crossing a line and you don't get to expect anything but anger.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I think it’s best we don’t speak right now.

I get reads by trying to figure out why someone posts something and that involves trying to figure out what they are thinking.

I do not know how to acknowledge your request in a way that will not make you angry.

I do not think I lied and I am sorry that my posting is hurting you if you’re town.

I like to get into scum’s head and play around with it as part of hunting them.

I don’t see original thought from your slot is my opinion. You screaming at me that it is doesn’t change anything for me except it makes you a scary person I don’t want to interact with.

If you’re town this conversation is entirely unproductive. Give me time to get there.

I'm willing to let this lie at this point -- with a few things to note.

We need to learn how to interact at some point, and no matter what your alignment is you do not want to end up with me in an ELO-type situation before we figure it out: it's lose-lose if you're town, and gives me (and the other townies) the win if you're not, because I will win on WIM at that point.

This post I've quoted? At every point this is fine. There's a case where it's even a bit more mild than I think you need to go -- you could have dropped "is my opinion". The key here is that you're saying what you think, what you see, what you feel, what you do. Not how things are. You are aware of your own cognitive limits. When you start saying what /I/ /am/, then you're in lying territory -- and until this post, you have been consistently saying what I /am/, rather than what you /see me as/. Being told what I am by people who don't know me, being /defined/ by strangers; or being told what I'm thinking by other people -- those are the big red buttons with the palm-switch activation interlocks, and I detonate rather messily. Avoid that, we'll mostly be fine -- some testiness from nicotine withdrawal aside.

That's it. That's the /whole/ thing.

You want to keep your distance still, I get it. But you stepped smoothly into language that would keep things reasonably calm here, so I'm open to further communication. With the caveats above acknowledged, of course -- is/are/will language is what got us here and it'll bring us back if it ends up reappearing. Stick to e-prime, things will stay chill.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Today has been slammed, I’m not even at laptop, I owe people posts, so goddamn sorry, will just see what I can dig up from phone, Sundays are always busy but Halloween made this one super extra special busy and then I started a jewelry project before I remembered mafia existed

[MUSHSHAGANA]

What I can dig up from phone:

I thiiiink did it again I mistook players for each other and it appears what set me off was VFT covering for Critter as I was starting to melt down in that direction, then I mistook reads that the bears were giving for VFT giving reads which looked like weird jumping around on slots? I thiiiink. Also I remembered them reaching out to non-Towelie slots at off-hours in that timespan but I cannot find evidence of it rn, but it was the night after LLD announced the target was VFT in case people with functioning brains want to see if I merely forgot where to look or if I was totally off in a completely fantastical reality

What I’m learning is I need to live in Mafia 24/7 or I have to start taking notes, I cannot trust my memory and I know I can’t trust my memory and here we are and my memory is 0/3 (watch the actual number of memory failures will be higher I betcha, I just fuckin betcha)

I have no excuse, my memory is degrading, I’m old and today is Halloween and I’m gonna just not worry about this right now because HALLOWEEN and THE DAY I CELEBRATE MY BIRTHDAY means it is time to drink scotch eat candy and cover my hands in metal filings till I look like tetsuo the iron man. Mafia ruined last Halloween for me I am keeping this one you can’t have it

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Morning everyone. After last night, when I found in a brief scan that my reasons to scumread VFT were INCORRECT AND FALSE (if we lim all liars, start with my memory!), I still found my head going "so, scum still." And I could not figure it out. More experienced players are less likely to collapse in defeat after a strong push, that's a noob-town-tell, so its absence is expected and NAI. VFT has been rather single-minded in terms of engagement (which I find weird for a hydra especially) but that feels town-ish if it's AI at all. There's nothing else there that could lead me to that conclusion from VFT's corner.

So I stepped back a bit and looked at what other players are doing around VFT -- this is risky, but it clearly isn't anything VFT is doing getting me a scumread on their corner, so where's it coming from? Well, I think I figured it out. I think my read on scum is coming from the wagon trajectory. It stalls out and backfires at the exact point I'd expect it to if the wagon was on decent scum in a 13p game. And THAT isn't coming from memory, I checked: it's hovered at about 5 since LLD dropped the initial push -- despite a lot of promises to jump on board from off-wagon for a while now.

That has a pretty decent track record for spotting scum in my personal experience -- at least twice in Death Curse (looked into it), once in a newbie game I played (ditto), and I feel like I've seen it before in games from off-site or other games I wasn't playing in on-site (this is the faulty memory talking, take with salt). I think it MIGHT have been brought up by people here in this thread before me, but I think they were more pointing at the off-wagon pushers and the stallers than at VFT, where when I checked in on where this would land, I found the red flashing over VFT.

Maybe (? I don't know) that's what caught my attention before, and I just forgot about it but confbiased my way to reading VFT as scum for their actions (as opposed to how others are acting on their wagon) because the feeling was unshakable and unplaceable (presumably true because that's how it felt this morning) and I had low focus and low energy to invest in the game (def true). Hard to say, I'm speculating on my own fucking motivations which can't end well for anyone, but that's where I'm at now that I have a clear head, there's no distractions in the game thread and I've had time to really interrogate myself and my feelings on the gamestate.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Oh wow I'm real glad everyone agrees Wisdom is the play here. Was already inclined from the VFT flip but the N1 hider death cemented it.

I won't vote for the same reason Critter unvoted, but I'll call intent (if need be).

Not much to say today, I think.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Oh wow I'm real glad everyone agrees Wisdom is the play here. Was already inclined from the VFT flip but the N1 hider death cemented it.

I won't vote for the same reason Critter unvoted, but I'll call intent (if need be).

Not much to say today, I think.

I think there is. I think we can hunt for potential partners.

Oh, I was talking about for ME to say. I have a suspicion on the final piece of the puzzle, personally and I want to watch how things play out a bit, but I don't think I have anything to add to the current proceedings. So today (as in realtime) nothing much for me to say.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

We're on the same page there.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I dislike the ssbm-scum assertion on the basis of that quote (I think that's legitimate NAI nerdout based on what I see of ssbm's whole deal), but I understand where you're coming from and I don't think town gets more utility out of debating that.

I want to let Wisdom react to the wagon, but I expect to have to discard whatever we get. I would like more dayplay to work with, but I figure a Wisdom flip can give me a solve along with whatever Wisdom play we get pre and post VFT flip.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I agree scum are informed.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I keep meaning to post today but getting distracted.

I'll extend my intent to Dunn as well as Wisdom. I'm not a fan and haven't been a fan of either slot -- but that's not both remaining scum, and I lack some important data that'd give me which one is red.

But I don't have much more to say until something happens, and I agree with ssbm that Wisdom's meta dive on S_S was, at the very least, compelling.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Are we eliminating now? Not sure of the vote count and busy enough it's hard to check.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I can triangulate between two possible slots with VFT and Dunn as data points.

I don’t think there’s value in me specifically pre-flip speculating there... normally it’s where I thrive, but with my brain derailed? Forget it. I would like to give other players a chance to do that speculating, though, because it gives me more to work with — maybe enough to get my head in the game despite my brain being out to lunch.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Someone who isn't Critter give me thoughts on ssbm and Towelie.

They're the two non-lurk slots that I feel have been underexamined in my scan through, leaving aside Critter (IMO confbiased too hard to be reliable for data) and VFT (scum and so unreliable) respectively. They're slots that post in bursts of high activity separated by stretches of near-nonexistence. They can't both be scum, but scum has a decent chance of being in them if not in the obvious places (bears, Dunn, Wisdom). Much of their posting feels vacuous to me, though that could also be the sucking vacuum that replaced my brain earlier in the game.

Dunn is still it, absent a compelling reason to Not Do That (EXTREMELY doubtful at this point in the dayphase and honestly, right now, town would probably just clobber anyone who tried -- good thing, not bad), but I want some meat to go into the night with and no one's putting anything out there. Thoughts on slots that haven't had many people make a stand on their alignment and which have an actual post history to read into feels like a decent bet for getting something worth anything before the curtain falls.

I'll place my vote on Dunn in the morning to set up the hammer. I just feel like we're throwing a dayphase away here and I want to have something to work with.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

i'm having a super hard time empathizing that we're hard to read for either of activity level or low signal/noise (my interpretation of what vacuous means here)

please advise

-b

Advice: remember my brain isn't working and trust that I'm desperate for info. Also the post was written as I was falling asleep in realtime. Still want people to share thoughts on you and ssbm.

With ssbm unvoting I'm pretty comfortable following through now, even with agreeing that waiting for EMMI input is a pretty good idea: VOTE: Dunnstral

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Still waiting on EMMI...

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Jada, when you catch up, I have a hypothetical scenario that I think is the only way I'm gonna get to know your play fast enough to go into Day 3 feeling like I can play at a useful level. (Catchup posting is garbage for learning how people play, IMO.)

Let's say you get a magical dayvig shot at the time you catch up to this post. The catch is, you have to shoot in your townreads. Null or lower is off limits. Somehow you cannot lie to escape the conundrum -- it's magic, after all.

Who do you take down? Who's your deep wolf in this scenario?



Again, this is more to give me a feel for you, the player on the far side, than it is to get an actual read on your alignment. There's no right answer, there's no gotcha, I don't have enough brain power to set up one of those right now.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Flavor too, please.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

That's fine, I can explain. Claiming flavor is pretty good as ideas go right about now, since we have multiple examples now of flavor being connected to role. That makes for a short list of flavors that could be arguably VT. If scum have mod-provided safe flavor claims that don't match their role claim, that puts them under scrutiny. If they gamble and hit a live town flavor, that's a town win.

We have one scum left, there's not much reason to keep risk low at this stage. When it gets around to my time to claim, you'll see why I'm willing to say that.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Mental note SM vanished when asked about reads

Oh, this is my chance to check against someone else’s brain!

So, when ISOing SM, do you see a pattern in their posts or is it just me? I don’t want to bias you too much in case it’s an illusion but it’s something about the flow of almost every single interaction.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Mental note SM vanished when asked about reads

Oh, this is my chance to check against someone else’s brain!

So, when ISOing SM, do you see a pattern in their posts or is it just me? I don’t want to bias you too much in case it’s an illusion but it’s something about the flow of almost every single interaction.

I don't see giving townreads but I am bad with patterns.

Augh, damn. It's a very clear pattern if it exists at all, but if you're bad at patterns I am not about to guess whether you'd see it or not. I'll call it a wash for now.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I want to see a Wisdom claim before I do mine.

Also, given 10 town/3 scum, VFT's goon flip, and so many PRs on the town side, I don't think Scum 3 is vanilla. So unless one of Jada or SM have something to say, I am willing to give them a pass for the time being.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Hm.



Baja Blast. PR. I'm going to go further and claim: Novice X-Shot Vig. How many shots is for you to find out. I have used none.

I'm claiming because I will be shooting tonight, but I'm aware I haven't been playing with a full deck, mentally -- so I want to have some guidance. Unfortunately, I trust no one who isn't Gamma to suggest shot guidance.'

Do with that as you will.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

No points for guessing the reason I didn't shoot on N2: My brain doesn't function properly lately.

What's the point of questioning the thing that has an obvious answer that I've repeated for practically every other post I've made since mid-D1?

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I mean, I almost DID shoot. I almost shot Towelie.

Before you call that what it is, double back and check D1 for me.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I won’t shoot either Jada or SM.

If bears are the elimination, the shot is in Wisdom, ssbm, Towelie.

Bears are an obvious elimination choice, I would rather shoot there and eliminate elsewhere. That’s just me.

Gamma is pretty close to confirmed due to the role block on that slot N1. Towelie is the deepest of deep wolves if scum. I would prefer Wisdom over all the other options presented, but I wouldn’t hate ssbm going down. Towelie absolutely only if there’s no other consensus. I refuse to shoot Jada or StrangeMatter, period. You don’t get confirmed vanilla deaths out of me in this setup at this gamestate, absolutely not.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I think Jada clears bears on that VCA. I went back, judged it for myself, and that would have to be a planned launch that purposefully sacrificed the rest of the team to set it up. Dunn was under pressure, but VFT was in the free and clear at that point in D1... I don't think they launch a TSTBS bear-pair gamble on the back of their own busses that early, that feels dangerously close to skirting game-throw territory.

So I'm here: Wisdom, ssbm, Towelie. Which ones go?

[MUSHSHAGANA]

vig us if wisdom flips town

the town is so low wim that there's a p good chance wisdom runs all over it if he doesn't die here cuz we're like the only people who actually sus him

I actually agree with this.

Having reread, bears makes less sense than Wisdom for final scum. Wisdom isn’t cleared by Gamma, so could be lying about VT. Wisdom hard-defended VFT to the end and cast shade on everyone who disagreed, then slammed Dunn to the wall rather than going down — consider it a moment… D1, Dunn had lost most credibility, Wisdom still had some mojo saved up. Wisdom has been laughably wrong at least once, but has the energy to direct the thread — it at worst levels the playing field so it’s not one player who has been wildly off base before running the show.

I do NOT want bears to be the elimination today, and I’m fucking scared of Noraa and respect the hell out of Pooky. No, no way.

I think we win this outside of bears, and if bears survive the night… haha just kidding, there is no way bears survive the night unless they are BP or for some reason have a second RB (which, no one believes that one is on the table right?) and expending that on me at this stage would be a functionally confirmed guilty on the bear pair regardless. Come on.

We are 8v1, we are still comfortably in this. Wisdom feels right to me, and I will take bears out for the night, no backside.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Backsies, not backside, but I’m also not talking out of my ass.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I will back bears up here, and take them in the night if Wisdom goes green. Seriously.

The worst case for bears ends with them going down tomorrow. The worst case with Wisdom ends with BP Wisdom saying “oh, not a vig after all!!!” And getting at least one more miselimination. And that buys time to get back in town’s good graces and run a 8v1 game to ELo.

You could say I’m hard-defending my scum buddy but there’s only one scum left and tonight functionally confirms my alignment. You could say I’m pocketed but I was advocating a policy kill of the bears for D1.

Nah. Take Wisdom today.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Mush im never getting limd in this playerlist
At best youll get sm to vote me
Gamma and Titus know im obvtown here
Dont delay the inevitable

This is exactly why I’m putting my foot down on you today.

Bears die if they make it through the night no matter what. You? I don’t know about you.

VOTE: Wisdom

[MUSHSHAGANA]

You’re not obvtown because it isn’t obvious to me.

The bears, as scum, would take a scumteam of some of the best players I’ve seen and just fucking game throw out of the gate. No. That’s silly.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Silly is perfectly possible with Noraa and Pooky in the mix, mind you. I really will shoot if you go green, this dust up doesn’t feel TvT to me at all. But you make way more sense as the scum side.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Buddy, I don’t know why you care more about survival than success.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

But you make way more sense as the scum side.

Nothing remotely makes sense with me as the scum side
I even fucking reread the whole game to prove mm is obviously the last scum

I did too. What scumteam that includes Noraa, Pooky, Dunnstral and two players I’ve heard nothing but good things about the scum games of (Lilith and Skitter) up and gamethrows midway through D1 to set up a launch on a slot that had people pushing for policy eliminations on it? What does that say about every player in that team? Nothing good!

Not sensible to me. Sorry.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I’ll admit that I’m forcing an issue here where there doesn’t need to be one. But only one of these two slots can escape the next dayphase intact and it isn’t bears. Wisdom could weasel to ELo, bears cannot.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

In this gamestate? With me promising to shoot there? Having acted the damn clown so they’re hard to believe if they want to play it like “oh liar non vigilante!”? No way.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

You’re supposedly VT, so me missing on you is easier to sell as me lying.

You already put it out there that bears could be JOAT (very possible!), their survival is all but impossible.

And if you wanna spin it as me trying to set up miselims I don’t make it to ELo either.

If you think scum is in me, bears, you, this is a guaranteed win. Absolute certainty. Sorry Wisdom.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

There is absolutely no way you don’t try to sell it that way if you make it through the night anyway. You said it yourself, you see being miseliminated as a loss. Even if you WERE somehow town in that instance, you’d try to build that case, come the hell on. Given your track record of swaying slots that know you, you’d probably succeed too. Absolutely not.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Wisdom, you are putting so much effort into something that is a matter of the order that the same things happen in that it’s backfiring on you. I am more convinced you are scum than when we started. (Side note: I DID reread and I came to the conclusion I did here despite being biased towards the bears as scum!)

And if you’re right and I am wrong it is a matter of 48 hours before you can collect your win and chance to gloat about being right, all the sweeter for me having never seen the truth until you made it impossible to ignore.

But you would rather fight about it. It’s not just survivalistic — it’s desperate. And it’s doing everything under the sun to break free — “fine” and a self vote, ominous warnings of doom, outrage, pleading, it’s all there. Why does town do that if their scum rival is a guaranteed shot for the night? Why do you do that?

You are the best pick here, I’m sorry, and you make that more true over time.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Sorry. You’ve cornered yourself at this point, Wisdom.

Either I need to worry and you can set up a counterwagon, making you obviously the correct target, or I don’t need to worry and you can’t set up a counterwagon, meaning you’re it anyway.

I’m not saying to give up. I’m just pointing out the logical trap. The construction was not my doing — you laid these bricks, you toweled this mortar. What other people make of your work is not for me to say, but I do want to point it out.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Coming back to this is like walking away from a heated discussion and coming back to find out someone came by and burned the building down in your absence.

I'm not even going to touch this, except to gesture wildly and say "What the fuck? What the FUCK?" over and over again. Explanation? Not likely, so I'm. I'm just gonna let this town do what it will, and I'll make my shot or I'll be out of the game. This skewed my picture of the game so badly... What the fuck? I don't know what else to do with this. What the fuck?

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Gamma, where am I shooting this night phase if it gets that far? I don't care who else has whatever they want to say -- I know the bears will say Wisdom, and I care about no other player but Noraa/Pooky and you right now. Where am I shooting?

[MUSHSHAGANA]

This gives me an idea that might help me here.

Wisdom, bears -- you can't pick each other for the vig shot. Who's your runner up?

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Wisdom... That feels so so wrong.

Why is there scum in that pair? This isn't like, make a case, it's not even about convincing me, it's about understanding what you are seeing on this board because I don't understand what I am seeing here myself. Give me your eyes, as best you can. Why is there scum there?

[MUSHSHAGANA]

That was my argument.

Bears (IDK who's typing right now), pick your vig shot that isn't Wisdom.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

if wisdom is town I'd vig gamma

God, see, I can SEE this argument! I don't agree, but I can see how someone comes to this conclusion!

I do not understand an argument for Jada/SM.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Towelie and Kyouko aren't even in your POE dude

This brings up another good point.

Why aren't we looking more closely at those two in GENERAL?

[MUSHSHAGANA]

So if we’re talking about throwing setup spec out, where is our next step then, Gamma?

I’m not saying we aren’t wrong-headed, just wondering what the immediate consequences for this dayphase would be.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I feel like removing setup spec, even though I bought into it, brought the game back into focus.

Wisdom, how far do you really intend to follow the Gamma line of thought? Do you think that’s a good push?

[MUSHSHAGANA]

With the team suggesting that Gamma CCs, I can see her making that play.

I don't think that THAT team EVER makes that suggestion at THAT point in time -- unless they intend to bus Gamma for a late-game launch. And if they did intend to, I didn't smell nearly enough desperation around VFT getting pinned as the elimination du jour right after Dunnstral had gotten in a fight with the IC. Which is completely unrealistic to me. That's like putting all of your eggs in one basket made of heavy-duty monocrystalline titanium alloy, only for someone to strap a rocket motor to it and send it on a suborbital trajectory: now you know those eggs are doomed, it's just a matter of when.

Still, assuming I'm alive tomorrow, if Gamma is too, that's too concerning to not deal with.



Leaving aside setup speculation, I think SM is a good call. Bears vs Wisdom as TvT feels sensible to me now that I'm seeing the gamestate more clearly and understanding other players around me. The odd one out at this stage really is SM, there is no other slot left that I do not understand the POV of.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

You're the only player who I don't understand, Strange. You really should explain your POV. And without the setup spec -- that stuff is no good for you, it'll make you sick.


PEDIT: I don't really read games I'm not in, and I don't really hold to meta. I'm making that analysis off of what I have seen of you in this game, and the conclusions I have drawn about it.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Okay. Why aren't you talking about it? I even gave you an opening to do so.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Counterpoint, Wisdom also said a similar thing about Pooky. As did Gamma.

Also, what's your take on Jada's VCA coloring the bear-pair as town?

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Vote Count 1-13

A man made the news recently for "stealing" mountain dew, for which he faces several years as a felony, despite thinking he'd overpaid in a rush.

Milk & Mocha (4): Dunnstral, Venus Fly Trap, Lady Lamdadelta, Towelie
E. M. M. I. (3): ssbm_Kyouko, Gamma Emerald, Wisdom
ssbm_Kyouko (1): Critter
Dunnstral (1): Milk & Mocha
Gamma Emerald (1): StrangeMatter
Critter (1): MUSHSHAGANA

Not Voting (2): Something_Smart, E. M. M. I.

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes to eliminate a flavor.

Current Deadline: (expired on 2021-11-02 20:02:57)

MM town

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I had an awful night last night after an amazing day, and it's the sort of awful and the sort of amazing that will take a while to play out.

All of this is to say: I'm sorry for the delay. But now, VOTE: StrangeMatter. And I hope I don't need to think about vig shots, because I'm checked out.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Before anyone tries to give me credit I literally just fell back to "Oh, SM was town. Setup spec it is."

Fun game. Good work everyone.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Doing a quick scan through, I think I can definitively put the headstone on the grave of my great-scheming-weirdo days. I cannot make heads or tails of my early day 1 play, but I remember being In The Zone with a dozen plots going. That is dangerous: dropping one sneaky bastard plot as town is cause for concern, dropping all of them at once creates broad spectrum noise for people to try and parse the game through.

This probably marks the last game where I try at that. I’m going to try to put together a new way to play instead.

(This isn’t a skill or accuracy or good vs bad thing, btw. I could have been 0% accurate all game long and still ended up feeling like the playstyle had legs. I feel I did pretty well despite floundering desperately, but the floundering is a bad sign for the playstyle, so I’m putting it to rest.)

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I am very sad because seeing your early play was honestly a delight

It might have looked cool but it ended up derailing on me hard, and I never got it back. And even in hindsight the after-effects of losing it appear to have manifested as a big drop in some of town’s momentum, I don’t want to do that again.

I’ll probably still do a lot of plotting, but probably no more than one plot at a time and definitely without the smugness. I’ll have to find a new writing style to distinguish my play with if I lose the smugness, but that was always a good idea anyway.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

My secret is that I am always prepared to eat shit.

No, for real. Like, if you just accept that there is a chance you’ll take one step and smash your face directly into the ground, there’s no reason NOT to go all in. What’s the worst that can happen, oh, you’ll cartoon-slip on a banana peel in public? Who cares. Prepare for it, count on it if you have to. Write up a speech for when you inevitably fail in the most obvious way possible, and then another speech about how you wrote a speech for failing in the obvious way but you had to go and fail some other fucking way so now you can’t use it.

It seems backwards but it really is the key for me.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Oh, absolutely. I intended that as a direct answer to the question: if you want to know how I project confidence, that's it right there.

I should have pointed out the downsides though, yeah. I guess I was thinking, like, the requirement of being fully willing to fail catastrophically is hopefully enough to prevent people from taking risks of that sort under most circumstances, I'd hope? You have to be fully prepared to eat shit in the worst possible outcome of any action you take, so taking actions that are very high risk (or where the risk is maybe low but the worst possible outcome is absolutely horrifying) means you need to be prepared to wear that egg on your face... even I'm not that gutsy most of the time, and when I am I prepare beforehand to fully own the fallout.